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AR10 vs Bolt Action

kissfan113

kissfan113

Private
Minuteman
Mar 18, 2012
31
0
38
Weston, WV
I've been doing some thinking lately about my newest precision rifle platform, I'm wanting a 308 cal rifle with sub moa accuracy and above average reliability, I know the traditional bolt action will always surpass any semi auto reliability wise, however the AR10 design intrigues me just enough I'm thinking of going that route, I've been planning a build off a DPMS lower with a DPMS 24 inch bull barreled a3 upper supporting a blackened barrel, miculek compensator, and some other misc goodies like free floated quad rail, atlas bipod, and some troy folding sights, The bolt actions I've seen had no iron option, as well as a substancial amount of work to be done accurizing and customizing to get them where I want them, barring any substancial reliability problems it seems I can go a lot farther faster and easier of the AR-10 style platform. any ideas guys?
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

gas guns are awesome but they are a different animal.reloading for them is differnet,shooting them,everything.i've had bolt guns that were boringly accurate but a gas gun will keep you on your toes.
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

I would suggest a custom build using a Noveske stainless steel barrel.
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

I've been shooting bolt guns all my life, everything from 338 win mag, 300 win mag and 7mm STW down to 270 Win scoped rifles are in my safe along with open sight 30-06 and 8mm military bolts, I guess I'm just trying to find something a little different than what I have in a way, but still want a tack driver, I like a good challenge as long as it's one I can overcome, but having little to no experience with a semi auto platform rifle other than a real cheap AK (which for this discussion is like apples to oranges) I seek experienced words from the board here. I appreciate all replies I've recieved thus far, Does Noveske make barrels for the AR-10 or bolt rifles? I'll have to look at their site.
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

If you are looking for your first "precision" rifle a bolt gun (think remington 700) is a better choice than an AR. Easier to shoot, easier on the wallet.

That being said I have a couple bolt remingtons that are set up that way as well as a 308 AR that I built...lots more rounds though the AR than the bolts. It's just more fun.
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

If you are interested in a gas gun, get one. I dont think you need to go out and drop 5k on a ar10 if you dont want to. Ar10's are just like bolt guns in the fact that if you buy a mass produced gun IE DPMS or Armlite, some shoot, some dont. Lilja stocks ar-10 barrels, as does Fulton Armory and many others.
If you want a gas gun to shoot 1/4 moa groups, you might need to throw some money to the custom gun makers like Gap etc. If you are looking for a moa gun I would stay with a cheaper mass produced and upgrade as you want. I have the cheapest ar10 that DPMS makes and it will hold about 3/4 moa. I am thinking about getting a Lilja barrel and a new BCG to tighten the tolerances and get it shooting a little better.
I am not sure how it is any different then a bolt gun as far as reloading. Seems to be exactly the same, resize, prime, powder and bullet. Only trouble is you have to go find them after you shoot them.
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

You didn't state (or I missed it) the distance you want to use the gun out to. Aside from that, I have had 2 DMPS AR-10s with the 24" SS bull barrel. They shoot .5 MOA easily at 100 yards (3 shot groups) and didn't break the bank. I also have 2 308 bolt guns that shoot similar groups at 100 yards and beyond. I haven't tried the AR-10's at long range because that is not what I use them for...I use my bolt guns for that. As for the bolt actions, my 308 LTR shoots 1/2" out of the box and my 308 SPS (only modification is a new stock) with shoot between .5 and .75 moa.
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

I sold my bolt gun, which was 2/3 moa, but boring, and went for the challenge of shooting an AR-10 type rifle. I have found it stimulating and interesting. Right now I have 2 POF 308's and 1 GAP-10 upper.
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

I love my bolts and am still primarily a bolt gun shooter for long range precision. I have 2 semis for long range ...a 5.56 DI gun and a .308 piston gun. Both are very accurate. Not .2-.3's like a couple of my bolts but solid .5-.75 moa. The biggest difference is it took me 6 months of really shooting the semi's to become consistently good with them. They magnify any problems with form, trigger control and follow through. The trade off is putting in the work with semis made me a much better shooter. They are a lot of fun to shoot and if you are looking for a sure way to improve your overall form driving a gun they are a great way to do it.
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

Indeed you guys called me on that one, I am thinking 500-700 yds will be my intended max range for this rifle, thanks to all for the quick replies so far
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

If you're looking for sub-moa, look into GAP, Noveske or Larue. Other good options out there like LMT and JP, those are just the ones I have experience with. I had an Armalite before but sold it for the new GAP built on the POF platform and am very happy. I didn't have any problems with the Armalite, it's just you get what you pay for.

Another thing, what are you using it for...hunting, competition? Do you plan to hump it through the woods or is it going from the back of your car to the bench?
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

I like the AR10T with the 20" ss barrel. As above posters mentioned, it takes more work to shoot as well as a good bolt, but is lots of fun and offers plenty of "precision" for most users. FL resize your brass and try 175SMK's and you will be pleased.

My AR10 was around $1600 in Jan. It has the 2 stage Arma trigger. We shoot a head/chest (18x22") clanger at 500 at my farm and wear the head out with ball. The higher-end ones like the POF's and GAP's are really nice but I have GAP bolts for when I'm serious.

AG
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

I'm currently shooting a .260 Rem Bartlein barreled AR10-type action built by GAP.

I consistently get .4"-6" 5 round groups with it at 100yds, and have shot a 9.25" group at 1000yds, where a small wind gust opened the group from just under 3" to 9.25".

I've seen as many reliability problems with bolt guns as with gas guns, particulalry with feeding, but it's easier to see and clear a feed issue with a bolt gun most of the time, but not so with a firing pin obstruction issue.
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

My Armalite AR-10 has never missed a beat and will get sub MOA from pakistani surplus.It has functioned with every cheap round I could find. I didn't seem to have any issues that struck me as platform related. The gun shoots better than I can. The versitility is great as well. They can be configured for about any situation that you can think of, maybe short of duck hunting. You wont regret an Armalite!
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kissfan113</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(1) ...wanting a 308 cal rifle with sub moa accuracy and above average reliability

(2) ...bolt actions I've seen had no iron option

(3) ...substancial amount of work to be done accurizing and customizing to get [bolt actions] where I want them

(4) ...I can go a lot farther faster and easier of the AR-10 style platform. any ideas guys? </div></div>

Regarding (1) I might say (3) and (4) are incorrect. Quality sub-$1000 bolt will exceed MOA with unfailing reliability but not a sub-$1000 AR10 if one exists.

Regarding (2) iron sights, never met anybody with a long range AR-10 who needed them, or ever used them if they had them -- zero'ing doesn't count. Interferes with the ocular bell and ends up a $200+ solution for a problem that doesn't exist.

I say scratch the itch and go AR10. Won't know whether you're a SA or bolt guy til you try for yourself. I used to only like SA and couldn't figure out why folks spend so much on bolt guns til I bought one for the heck of it. Now I own 4 long range bolt guns but zero semi-auto. Wouldn't have found out if I didn't try. Since you've shot bolt guns your whole life, if you get another one, I bet you won't stop thinking of an AR10 asking "what if..."
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

If you want a 308 precision rifle get a LMT 308 MWS and dont look back. My LMT shoots 1/2 MOA all day long with cheap American Eagle ammo. I would put it up against ANY bolt gun.

There is nothing wrong with bolt guns, In fact Im going to buy another one soon but in a bigger caliber like 300win mag or 338 lapua.
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

Different animals but both are fun. You will probably end up with at least one of each anyway.
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

I fall into the camp that it does'nt take a arm and a leg to get a submoa AR-10. I don't know how much accuracy you desire but I can't see spending an extra 1K to get 1/4 MOA. My AR-10T is 1/2 MOA all day with match ammo.I can't think of any reason to say this isn't acceptable accuracy. I used to be a bolt gun guy but when I seen what these semis could and with the advantage of softer recoil, carrying more ammo and faster follow up shots it was a no brainer. Yes, they are harder to shoot but once you figure them out it's game on. I would save the bolt gun stuff for calibers larger than .308.

My personal preference is for Armalite and LMT. I have just seen too many DPMS .308s not run right. I would build one on a DPMS just I would not buy their complete rifle...
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

one word versatility, gas guns are awesome and are easily just as accurate in the 308 platform now.
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

like others have said, if you must have an AR10, i would go with GAP, Noveske, Larue, LMT or KAC. all of which will end up being a pretty penny, but way better accuracy wise than the lower end DPMSs
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

Suggest you go with the ARMALITE SUPERSASS. It has all the goodies you want and will be cheaper than rebuilding a basic AR-10.I own a SUPERSASS which I shoot suppressed. It's a fine rifle, but not as accurate as my GAP bolt action.
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

Also understand that there is a difference between an AR-10 and the DPMS / SR -25 platforms. The AR-10 is Aramlites baby and uses FNFAL Mags as does the Rock River. DPMS, Bushmaster and Remington R-25 are the same system, they are even owned by the same company, and can use the P-Mag 20 rnd. Just like the KAC SR 25 or other designator. Those mags, funny enough are more reliable and solve a majority of the feeding issues and they are much cheaper depending on what part of the country you live in than thier metal counter parts. Also on the DPMS with the heacy 20 and 24 inch barrel they use what I believe to be Hart barrels (capitol H with a flame in the middle). The AR-10 and SR-25 type platforms such as KAC, DPMS SASS ect. also use different types of forearms, barrel nut ect. and you cant put a AR-10 upper on a SR-25 Lower and voice versa unless you have the upper receiver smithed due to the difference in the magazines. I own a DPMS LR-308 the only changes I made were a PRS Stock and a Wilson Combat Single stage trigger. It is a .5 moa gun just like my bolt rifle as long as I do my part. I hope this helps.
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zebra308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also understand that there is a difference between an AR-10 and the DPMS / SR -25 platforms. The AR-10 is Aramlites baby and uses FNFAL Mags as does the Rock River. DPMS, Bushmaster and Remington R-25 are the same system, they are even owned by the same company, and can use the P-Mag 20 rnd. Just like the KAC SR 25 or other designator. Those mags, funny enough are more reliable and solve a majority of the feeding issues and they are much cheaper depending on what part of the country you live in than thier metal counter parts. Also on the DPMS with the heacy 20 and 24 inch barrel they use what I believe to be Hart barrels (capitol H with a flame in the middle). The AR-10 and SR-25 type platforms such as KAC, DPMS SASS ect. also use different types of forearms, barrel nut ect. and you cant put a AR-10 upper on a SR-25 Lower and voice versa unless you have the upper receiver smithed due to the difference in the magazines. I own a DPMS LR-308 the only changes I made were a PRS Stock and a Wilson Combat Single stage trigger. It is a .5 moa gun just like my bolt rifle as long as I do my part. I hope this helps. </div></div>

The previous generation commercial Armalite (Eagle Arms) AR10 uses modified M14 mags. The newest generation of Armalite (Eagle ARms) AR10 uses Magpul/SR25 mags.

The Rock River is based on the discontinued Bushmaster rifle and does use FAL mags.

The rest of them (pretty much) use the SR25 pattern magazine - actually the original Armalite waffle-pattern mag from the 1950s.

I owned a Noveske N6 for a couple of years (Armalite M14 mag pattern) and was never able to consistently shoot it sub-MOA. Sure, some of my friends could, but I could not. It was really hard to shoot for me - it just accentuated the flaws in my form.

But with bolt guns, no problems for me. I have a Steyr that I can use to put them in the same hole at 200 yards. Some might call that boring, but not me.
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

Accuracy is like speed, once you get beyond a certain point, it starts getting expensive real quick. I tend to agree with the trend of posts, ie: if you want <1/2moa, stick with a bolt gun. If >1/2moa is acceptable, then a semi will work fine and be more versatile to boot (home defense, pest control, SHTF, etc). I have been a bolt gun shooter since childhood, Uncle Sam introduced me to semi's in the '80s and I have had a place for both ever since.
Hamstur and Ghostface say it well. Go for it, ya never know 'til ya try one. But I don't think it takes a custom build or $3000+ to get acceptable accuracy. Then again, I don't compete, so my standards are dictated by "practical shooting" rather than comparing shot groups. IMO, if you can rely on your weapon to function properly when you need it, hit your target, and do sufficient damage on impact then that one is a keeper regardless of platform.
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action


Get the books Glenn Zediker published on building AR's. In one he had a large chassis built in 6xc like so may High Power rifles for the course. These books are good authorities on AR building and related topics like ammo, for example. Indispensable to a shooter's library.
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

Thats a new one on me colt. When did Armalite change to take the magpul mags?
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

You would be hard pressed to beat a DPMS 24" .308 for the money.. in fact it may be down right impossible. I've owned two and the only reason I sold my last one is my brother in law just HAD to have it when he shot a nice tight sub 3" group at 500 yards with it. Seriously, for $1K you cant beat it.

Just get a JP gas block so you can dial back the gas a bit and a good trigger. The best trigger i've found for the DPMS is the Williams Set trigger.

That being said, I agree completely with LoneWolfUSMC's note about the distractions.

On the low-end of the price, savage makes a .308 w/a McMilan stock for around a grand, it's scary accurate. 1 hole accurate.

There is, however, a newcomer to the semi-auto realm, a local S. Central Texas company called F&D Defense.
Check them out, I'm willing to wager these are probably some of the most accurate .308's on the market.
http://www.fd-defense.com/fd308
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

I've got a nice little selection of firearms and do not own a single bolt action rifle. They bore me, although looking at some of the selection GA Precision has makes me drool. My entrance into the "precision rifle" world is going to be my AR-10A4 I just picked up. I have used the FN FNAR before, but only for hunting a few hundred yards out, so I wouldn't classify that as precision work. I think you should just go with whatever peaks your interest the most, saying you have to start with BA is just opinion(even though it may be a good idea), and why spend money on a BA if you are just gonna buy an semi soon there after.
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

I have had a DPMS SASS for 5 yrs now and really like it! If you are going to invest in an AR 10 the SASS system is the way to go. Why buy a gas gun with a 24 in barrel when you are buying a rifle that is meant to be a compact, fast shooting, accurate badass machine. My SASS is deadly out to 800. and reliable to 1000. all with a factory 18 in fluted cryo treated barrel. Also I would buy one that takes $20 Pmags. We all like to have 4-5 mags and $50 dollar mags run into some money.
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kissfan113</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been shooting bolt guns all my life, everything from 338 win mag, 300 win mag and 7mm STW down to 270 Win scoped rifles are in my safe along with open sight 30-06 and 8mm military bolts, I guess I'm just trying to find something a little different than what I have in a way, but still want a tack driver, I like a good challenge as long as it's one I can overcome, but having little to no experience with a semi auto platform rifle other than a real cheap AK (which for this discussion is like apples to oranges) I seek experienced words from the board here. I appreciate all replies I've recieved thus far, Does Noveske make barrels for the AR-10 or bolt rifles? I'll have to look at their site. </div></div>


FWIW, look at the FNAR! $1000 or under, Recoil is a baby, like a .243 or less! Accuracy is guaranteed under 1 MOA at 100 yrds. Yes mags are $50, but man it shoots like a dream. All the benefits of a piston, but in a system that is harder to take apart. Most don't field strip clean until 500 rds. or so. And even then, the SKS was hard to take apart the first time, I like to get to know my weapons anyway, so taking apart this beast is not trouble for me.

I sighted one in for someone with a 4-16 Millet. Even with a VERY wobbly Harris bipod, I was easily getting 1/2" groups at 100 yrds with SP hunting ammo. Trying from a rest/no bipod I could probably see 1/4" groups w/match ammo.

Plus it's an FN, they make 70% of the worlds arms. Yes, it's not a battle rifle per say, but lots of SWAT teams use them I've heard. It's based off the Browning BAR hunting rifle, which is still an outstanding system. The cycling is crazy smooth too, the new Remington Versa Max or whatever shotgun was horribly gritty compared to this ball bearing feel.

Armalite AR-10 is a battle rifle, and a good platform as well. Don't have any experience with DPMS. Piston systems are nice, but pricey.
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

Shoot a few tac matches and it won't be long before you've seen every type of gun break, but semis are more ammo sensitive so I guess they are less reliable.

If you want to shoot a semi-auto more, you'll be better with it. There are a few inherent advantages to a bolt, but there are advantages to gas guns too. Overall I do think a gas gun is harder to drive, but if the itch is for an AR, get one and get out there.

I started with one and don't regret it.

If you want to shoot 1k+, get a long barrel, you'll want all the velocity you can get.

Otherwise, if your goal is to do the best competing with a local club, go find out what they shoot and start there.
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GlockandRoll</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You would be hard pressed to beat a DPMS 24" .308 for the money.. in fact it may be down right impossible. I've owned two and the only reason I sold my last one is my brother in law just HAD to have it when he shot a nice tight sub 3" group at 500 yards with it. Seriously, for $1K you cant beat it.</div></div>
Well, one could go with 6.5 Creedmoor...

I'm new to long range shooting, and, being on a budget, the DPMS has been pretty darn good to me. But, like someone said about speed... Looking at a JP gas block myself...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GlockandRoll</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
There is, however, a newcomer to the semi-auto realm, a local S. Central Texas company called F&D Defense.
Check them out, I'm willing to wager these are probably some of the most accurate .308's on the market.
http://www.fd-defense.com/fd308
</div></div>Wow... That's pretty impressive!!
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

If you want to get more power at long range you should look into the 338 AR.
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

You don't need a 24" barrel on a .308 gas gun to shoot accurately to 800 meters. Get a 16" or 18" Gap-10 and you will be very happy. Also an OBR, or a few other high end AR10 builders will make you very happy. This is about having fun and gas guns are fun.
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

Ultimate accuracy only comes into play when you shoot prone supported front and rear, and you are shooting fireform match reloads.

If you are shooting offhand, prone unsupported, or off a rucksack, and shooting factory ammo, and only going out to 800 yards. A .308 16" gun is all you need.
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

All of my .308 gas guns are Armalite.
Their new model that shoots the inexpensive P-mags is a good idea.
Gas Guns are fun, and with a good barrel are pretty accurate.
There will be a point where you accuracy will flatten out if shooting factory ammo, or being constrained to the magazine dimensions. So you are unable to shoot the heavier higher B.C. bullets to gain that little bit of extra accuracy you can get our of handloads.
Also if you are handloading for gas guns, the ejection process can be a little rough on the brass. You will lose some brass due to dents upon ejection.
Decide on what you want the rifle to do. If you want manueverability, short barrels can be quite accurate, but the loss of velocity will show up past 600 yards.
If you want it to do the long range, bench or prone stuff I also would suggest a longer barrel to get more velocity needed to remain accurate at 600+ yards.
There are a lot of moving parts in a gas gun so not all of them are reliable out of the box. Some may test your patience until they break-in. Same with mags.
While my AR-10's are accurate, one of my (TU)'s is VERY accurate with handloads, I just don't see it ever outshooting my Surgeon Scalpel 7mm/.300 WSM, which recently printed x5 @ .163" !!!
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zebra308</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Thats a new one on me colt. When did Armalite change to take the magpul mags? </div></div>

At the beginning of the year I believe.
 
Re: AR10 vs Bolt Action

I highly recommend the LAR-8. My Standard Operator 20" is sub-MOA all day. No matter what you decide, enjoy...
 
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