for those who neck turn

[Subxero]

So i decided that i want to play around a little bit with neck turning just for shits and giggles. I purchased a Forster hand held neck turner

And i was wondering what your step by step was and most importantly to me, how do you get your necks to fit snug with no play around the mandrel guide for the actual turning?

P.S. I have redding bushing dies, and this is for 30 cal

 

[Suasponte]

Re: for those who neck turn

A expander mandral is required for that operation. Make sure you get one made by the same mfg as your neck turner.

Size your brass and the place the expader die in your press and run your brass up over the die. This will expand the neck back out to a snug tight fit on your neck turner.

Also, if you know the exact thickness you want your necks to be use a set of feeler gages to set the cutter instead of guessing by cutting.

Terry

 

[Sgt_Jamez]

Re: for those who neck turn

I just started to experiment with neck turning myself. I too bought the Forster rig, but ran into the same issue... how to get a snug fit on the mandrel. I ended up shifting to K&M gear with the expander mandrel. I use bushing dies to decap and lightly size the neck down so the expander mandrel can set the fit just right. I set the cut depth and length, then use an electric drill to spin the case. Buff with 0000 steel wool, and then measure neck thickness, multiply by two, add the caliber, subtract .002" and that gives me the final bushing size.

For example say I turn a case to .0125"

.0125x2=.025" (total neck thickness)
.025+.308=.333"
.333-.002=.331" bushing for a .002" neck tension

I am sure there is a better way to do this, but this is my beginners method for now. I'm curious to see what others post.

Also I anneal before turning as I have been practicing my turning on range brass.

Good luck!

 

[Ratbert]

Re: for those who neck turn

As said before, a system that uses and expander die can help in getting an exact fit to the mandrel. I use the sinclair version and it works fairly well, though you do have to watch your temps on it as the close fit can build up a fair bit of friction heat. I tend to place mine in front of a coolant nozzle while I'm trimming and prepping the next case and that helps a lot.

That said, I don't really know that a close fit is really required. the mandrel will maintain a constant distance between the case and the cutter head if it's perfectly fit to the caseneck or if it were just a a pin, and that's all you really care about. The perfect fit probably makes it a bit easier to hold and guide but purely for the purposes of trimming the neck to a consistent thickness I really don't think it matters that much.

 

[Ratbert]

Re: for those who neck turn

My method, if you're curious, is to size the die using a FL die w/ expander button and then run it through the expander die. This gets me a pretty consistent (if not necessarily concentric) ID. I then chuck the brass in a sinclair drill holder and use the hand drill to spin the brass against a WFT trimmer held in my drill press (off).

I then use another hand drill to spin a chamfer bit against the neck (the WFT doesn't chamfer). I've found I get a smoother chamfer by spinning the chamfer bit against the static brass rather than the other way around. Outside deburring isn't really necessary since we're about to turn off the outside of the neck, but if I needed to deburr the outside I'd just touch it against the (off) belt sander while spinning it in the drill chuck.

I then use the drill to spin it on my sinclair neck turner, and then replace the turner back in front of the air nozzle to cool. Measure with a tube micrometer and, assuming it's within the +/- 0.0003" tolerances (which it usually is) I'm done. Once you have a system, it's not really that big of a deal and it's not like you have to do it all that often.

I've found that annealing new (non-factory annealed) brass tends to reduce the friction inconsistencies between individual pieces of brass (the expander effects them more consistently) but otherwise doesn't change the final results as compared to brass annealed after trimming.

 

[texasleftychef]

Re: for those who neck turn

I sanded the expander mandrel down so that it was less than a thousandth bigger than the turning mandrel. I use the Sinclair NT4000 and expander die.

 

[Subxero]

Re: for those who neck turn

hmmm lots of tips here, I think i am going to try and stick with the forster for now, but maybe measure my fired neck and just buy a bushing that will very very slightly size my neck just small enough to get some tension on the mandrel guide.

turn then finish sizing the rest of the way to get the right tension on the bullet.

 

[Ratbert]

Re: for those who neck turn

Not sure you want to size with a bushing die prior to neck turning. Doing so pushes the variance from the OD to the ID. Better to use something with a button that will make the ID consistent and let you turn off the variance from the OD. If your mandrel is small/loose enough that it really just comes down to clearance between the outer mandrel wall and the cutter head then it might not matter too much but it certainly can't be the preferred method.

 

[OnyxSkyDV]

Re: for those who neck turn

I followed an idea off of a small caliber website, and bought a small geared motor to use as a powered turning lathe, and threaded the shaft to fit a jacobs chuck used to hold the cutter.

Very handy if you are making a wildcat, and end up with very thick necks that need to be turned.

(Semi off topic, but related, and I find it very helpful)

Onyx

 

[Ratbert]

Re: for those who neck turn

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Onyx</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I followed an idea off of a small caliber website, and bought a small geared motor to use as a powered turning lathe, and threaded the shaft to fit a jacobs chuck used to hold the cutter.

Very handy if you are making a wildcat, and end up with very thick necks that need to be turned.

(Semi off topic, but related, and I find it very helpful)

Onyx</div></div>

How much did the motor run you? Where did you source it from?

 

[OnyxSkyDV]

Re: for those who neck turn

The company is "surplus center", and it was:

5-1098 177.7 RPM 115 VAC GEARMOTOR
(Here's one, but it's 220v, looks like they are out of the 110's right now. https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=5-984-C&catname=electric )

This setup can be bought pre-made, but I was willing to do the work myself to save some money. Motor was about $40 (plus shipping), the chuck was from harbour freight for about $10, maybe another $10 or so for the box and switch to hold the cap and wiring. I got a piece of Corian to mount it to (with some rubber feet under it to hold it steady).

Spent a couple weeks thinking about the best layout, and then an afternoon drilling and chamfering the holes for the screws and mounting it all. Very nice torque, and the highspeed shaft out the back will end up with a pully on it to turn another shaft eventually for a trimmer attachment, once I figure out the logistics.

Onyx

 

[Ratbert]

Re: for those who neck turn

Nice. A billion uses for a cost effective gearbox motor.

 

[OnyxSkyDV]

Re: for those who neck turn

I am necking .223 LC brass down to .17cal size, and the neck thickness is enough to break decapping rods.

Left is before neck turning, right is after.

Onyx

 

[427Cobra]

Re: for those who neck turn

This is how I neck turn brass
1. Full Length size with a non bushing die, decapping stem removed.
2. Expand the neck with a expander mandrel.
3. Trim to a uniform length.
4. Turn the necks to .0135, this is a skim cut, some get turned all the way around, some 50%, most 75%.
5. Tumble the lube off, I use Imperial sizing wax.

I do steps 1-4 in small batches of 5 because I noticed my turned thickness is much more consistent, brass will spring back a little causing a loose fit on the turning mandrel. Consistent neck thickness is the key step to concentric ammo, I have also noticed a reduction in ES/SD between turned and not turned cases, fliers have not been eliminated, but greatly reduced, group sizes have not shown a remarkable improvement but have improved. Neck Turning IMHO is not a waste of time, but it is a lot of work, but it's only a one time thing like primer pocket uniformimg, and flash hole deburring.

 

[Subxero]

Re: for those who neck turn

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is how I neck turn brass
1. Full Length size with a non bushing die, decapping stem removed.
2. Expand the neck with a expander mandrel.
3. Trim to a uniform length.
4. Turn the necks to .0135, this is a skim cut, some get turned all the way around, some 50%, most 75%.
5. Tumble the lube off, I use Imperial sizing wax.

I do steps 1-4 in small batches of 5 because I noticed my turned thickness is much more consistent, brass will spring back a little causing a loose fit on the turning mandrel. Consistent neck thickness is the key step to concentric ammo, I have also noticed a reduction in ES/SD between turned and not turned cases, fliers have not been eliminated, but greatly reduced, group sizes have not shown a remarkable improvement but have improved. Neck Turning IMHO is not a waste of time, but it is a lot of work, but it's only a one time thing like primer pocket uniformimg, and flash hole deburring. </div></div>

Why is it important to use a FL die over a bushing die?

what am i missing here?

 

[QuiggyB]

Re: for those who neck turn

Neck turning question: I am sxpanding up Lapua 6.5x284 brass with a sinclair 7mm mandrel. When this happens some thick shoulder brass gets brought up into the neck making a donut. My thinking is that the expander is pushing this extra brass to the outside which is then turned off.

After a firing I start seeing brass migrate up the neck and it grows some with each firing. I am wondering if there is a technique that will prevent this from happening or am I supposed to return the necks at some point.

For what its worth I have both the K&M turning tool with the carbide mandrel with the cutter on the end and the sinclair tool with carbide mandrels. I find that I only need to turn the necks once with the sinclair to get the right dimension but with the k&m I have to turn them twice. I also find that the k&m is too small and tends to collect a lot of crap fairly rapidly where the sinclair is larger and lets it fall away.

 

[QuiggyB]

Re: for those who neck turn

Onyx - try rubbing a little steel wool on that neck

 

[OnyxSkyDV]

Re: for those who neck turn

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: QuiggyB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Onyx - try rubbing a little steel wool on that neck </div></div>

That was right after turning it, but will do, thanks for the idea! (need to chamber up the rifle for this before I do too much more brass prep.)

Onyx

 

[texasleftychef]

Re: for those who neck turn

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SubXerO</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is how I neck turn brass
1. Full Length size with a non bushing die, decapping stem removed.
2. Expand the neck with a expander mandrel.
3. Trim to a uniform length.
4. Turn the necks to .0135, this is a skim cut, some get turned all the way around, some 50%, most 75%.
5. Tumble the lube off, I use Imperial sizing wax.

I do steps 1-4 in small batches of 5 because I noticed my turned thickness is much more consistent, brass will spring back a little causing a loose fit on the turning mandrel. Consistent neck thickness is the key step to concentric ammo, I have also noticed a reduction in ES/SD between turned and not turned cases, fliers have not been eliminated, but greatly reduced, group sizes have not shown a remarkable improvement but have improved. Neck Turning IMHO is not a waste of time, but it is a lot of work, but it's only a one time thing like primer pocket uniformimg, and flash hole deburring. </div></div>

Why is it important to use a FL die over a bushing die?

what am i missing here? </div></div>

The bushing will only resize part of the neck. I think it stops something like .050 short of the shoulder. The FL sizer will resize the entire neck. If you don't use the FL resizer you run the risk of having an ununiform neck thickness, aka thin spots close to the shoulder.

Think of the neck initially being .500. Then you neck size it to .450. Now you have a situation where the outside neck diameter is two different thicknesses, .500 close to the shoulder and .450 the rest of the way. If you follow the next step and expand the brass to .480, you still have two different outside neck diameters. The neck turner only trues up the outside diameter and if you run it in this scenario, you will be left with thin spots on the neck. The FL resizer is the only way to be sure that you resize the entire neck and turn the necks to the same thickness.

 

[Subxero]

Re: for those who neck turn

^ gotcha!!

 

[Subxero]

Re: for those who neck turn

So after a little more research it seems that Forster purposely makes their pilot mandrel every so slightly smaller than bullet diameter so that no expander is needed.

seems like a reasonable enough idea but clearly has some flaws in that different dies can have variation in both the sizing and expanding step

At this point it definitely seems like i should have done a little more research at the beginning and went with the K&M from the start

live and learn

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: for those who neck turn

About the above photo. I mainly use a Sinclair tool, but years ago started using the Forster with attachment on a tight neck 25'06AI. (a stolen rifle, never recovered) I found out that if I slowed down, (a lot) it eliminated almost all of the tool marks. BB

PS slow on the feed, not the hand crank.

 

[texasleftychef]

Re: for those who neck turn

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SubXerO</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So after a little more research it seems that Forster purposely makes their pilot mandrel every so slightly smaller than bullet diameter so that no expander is needed.

seems like a reasonable enough idea but clearly has some flaws in that different dies can have variation in both the sizing and expanding step

At this point it definitely seems like i should have done a little more research at the beginning and went with the K&M from the start

live and learn </div></div>

If you are going to buy more gear, I'd look at the Sinclair NT4000 before the K&M. In my opinion it's easier to adjust, it cuts nicer, and it fits in your hand better.

 

[Subxero]

Re: for those who neck turn

^ Ill definitely look at the sinclair as well, thanks

 

[Ratbert]

Re: for those who neck turn

I have the NT-1000 and am completely happy with it.

 

[OnyxSkyDV]

Re: for those who neck turn

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">About the above photo. I mainly use a Sinclair tool, but years ago started using the Forster with attachment on a tight neck 25'06AI. (a stolen rifle, never recovered) I found out that if I slowed down, (a lot) it eliminated almost all of the tool marks. BB

PS slow on the feed, not the hand crank. </div></div>

I will give that a shot, thanks!

Onyx