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LAPD spray and pray

Re: LAPD spray and pray

Wonder where the stray 79+ bullets went?

Bunch of trigger happy idiots but a very successful suicide by cop.
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

8 cops. 90 rounds. 10ish each. 1 hit each? Or 1 person with 100% hit rate?
smile.gif


I'm not going to judge. I wasn't there.
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: opshin556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">once again L.A.s finest in action....
90 rounds and they hit him 11 times...
this from a coroner report i received this am.
every one of these guys should have firearms taken away and given batons and pepper spray..
if they need guns call SWAT, at least I know those guys can shoot; once in a while anyway.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/04/police-90-rounds-101-freeway.html </div></div>

Perhaps if you hadn't gotten yourself fired from the LAPD you'd still be around to show em how it's done.
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

It would be nice to know where all their ammo went.

In a rush it is easy to grab your handgun differently even if you are looking at the front sight and that is center mass that does not help you if your handgun is not inline with the front sight.


To beable to see it shot again with tracers would be interesting.
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PanaDP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I shoot often at a public range near LA where a lot of police shoot. Several times I've been shocked by the poor shooting. </div></div>

I'm not sure when or where the myth was born that all cops are expert marksmen. Nothing could be further from the truth. Fact is that with the exception of those that are in specilaized units, most cops only qualify once or twice a year. 100-200 rounds a year isn't anywhere enough to instill muscle memory and basic shooting fundamentals. Add to the fact that cops for the most part see qual day as just a day off patrol and nothing more and this is the result you get.

I'm not even going to get into shooting under stress or "sympathetic shooting syndrome".

Hate to say it but most cops are shitty marksmen.
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

It's good to see you bash SWAT officers that weren't there. Out of curiosity, do you work for California POST?
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

I'm a firearms instructor for a big department, and i can tell you... most, not all, but most of the cops who i qualify, cant shoot at all. cops aren't gun guys by default, in fact, a few of them detest firearms and are big time Center for Biological Diversity , PETA, and Brady Center supporters. It's insane, mostly because "The Man" wants us to give up our guns and let these non-shooting losers protect us. Hooray for Sheeple!!
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

For those that want to criticize the lack of shooting skills. How many of you were involved in a stressful situation where one well placed shot ended the situation and you were the hero of the day? Anybody?

I hate using internet labels, but this post in wreaks of troll activity. Yes, its news. No, its nothing new. "Lets see how much us vs. them conflict can be stirred up between the LE and anti-LE members." That would have been a more accurate title, as the article is irrelevant to the apparent intent of this topic.
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For those that want to criticize the lack of shooting skills. How many of you were involved in a stressful situation where one well placed shot ended the situation and you were the hero of the day? Anybody?
</div></div>


Laughable. The job description is 'protect and serve'. Paper pushers that can type and regurgitate law - can serve. You need to be able fight and shoot to protect.

If they can't, they shouldn't be there. Part of the problem is LE quals - they are generally static, stress free events that test minimum skill sets. And yet if you attend them you will see officers that could fuck up a steel ball. That is inexcusable. New policy: shit got harder and if you choose not to put the work in on your own to prove mastery during quals - you need to seek out a new job.



Good luck
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

Many times I shoot next to LE at my range. It is amazing how bad some of them are with a pistol at stationary targets while taking all the time in the world.

I have not been in a stressful situation with a firearm but if they can't shoot in a range environment they sure won't be able to shoot in a stressful environment.

The sad thing is a lot of LE don't care enough to become proficient with firearms. I know I am overgeneralizing but I am just going off of what I have witnessed and SWAT team members are not included here - I have seen some impressive shooting at the range.

If it was me, I would hold myself to a higher standard - which I do, and my job doesn't put me routinely in harms way or a position where I would use a firearm.
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For those that want to criticize the lack of shooting skills. How many of you were involved in a stressful situation where one well placed shot ended the situation and you were the hero of the day? Anybody?
</div></div>


Laughable. The job description is 'protect and serve'. Paper pushers that can type and regurgitate law - can serve. You need to be able fight and shoot to protect.

If they can't, they shouldn't be there. Part of the problem is LE quals - they are generally static, stress free events that test minimum skill sets. And yet if you attend them you will see officers that could fuck up a steel ball. That is inexcusable. New policy: shit got harder and if you choose not to put the work in on your own to prove mastery during quals - you need to seek out a new job.



Good luck </div></div>

What he said
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

I agree with the training being shitty and sub par. It is what it is though, especially in these tough economic times. You guys should lobby your politicians and elected officials for better training for police departments.

Doubt it will happen though cause that would require time and effort on your part. Much easier to just complain about it online.
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: maggot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

If they can't, they shouldn't be there. </div></div>

What he said </div></div>

+2 what Mo said
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VJJPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">maybe they need doughnut front sights?</div></div>

LMMFAO

good one, can i use it sometime?
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Roddd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's good to see you bash SWAT officers that weren't there. Out of curiosity, do you work for California POST?</div></div>

No bashing man, LAPD SWAT guys rock.

The dept. politics just drag the morale to hell.
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PanaDP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I shoot often at a public range near LA where a lot of police shoot. Several times I've been shocked by the poor shooting. </div></div>

I'm not sure when or where the myth was born that all cops are expert marksmen. Nothing could be further from the truth. Fact is that with the exception of those that are in specilaized units, most cops only qualify once or twice a year. 100-200 rounds a year isn't anywhere enough to instill muscle memory and basic shooting fundamentals. Add to the fact that cops for the most part see qual day as just a day off patrol and nothing more and this is the result you get.

I'm not even going to get into shooting under stress or "sympathetic shooting syndrome".

Hate to say it but most cops are shitty marksmen. </div></div>

My inlaws are under that same impression. A while back at the range I had to help an HPD officer with his rifle to even get it on the page at 100 yards...he claimed he was swat and his badge on his chest proved it, but his shooting...ugh
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

Well fuck me runnin. All of the answers, right here in this one little thread.
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For those that want to criticize the lack of shooting skills. How many of you were involved in a stressful situation where one well placed shot ended the situation and you were the hero of the day? Anybody?
</div></div>


Laughable. The job description is 'protect and serve'. Paper pushers that can type and regurgitate law - can serve. You need to be able fight and shoot to protect.

If they can't, they shouldn't be there. Part of the problem is LE quals - they are generally static, stress free events that test minimum skill sets. And yet if you attend them you will see officers that could fuck up a steel ball. That is inexcusable. New policy: shit got harder and if you choose not to put the work in on your own to prove mastery during quals - you need to seek out a new job.



Good luck</div></div>

Good luck with that one. As it was stated earlier, some of these guys are not gun guys, and aside from quals, have little to no interest in handling their weapons. I agree that its on them to do their part. In one academy I attended range/quals were a week long (actual range not classroom time), and I logged over 1k rounds through my duty pistol, shooting movers, stress shooting, fire from cover,ect.. We had one guy, who I was amazed that he passed. He said it the first practice run, "I'm not a gun guy". But he passed. There are soldiers that make it passed basic that didn't qualify at 100%, doctors (including yours) that didn't graduate with honors, EMT's that didn't get a flawless score in their final test, and not all firemen made it to the top of the ladder first. How is it so acceptable that a cop must be held to such a high standard when their job is no more or less crucial to the others I mentioned. If any one of those can screw up, lives can be lost. How is this so different? You got some high expectations, only hope you are not disappointed in life all the time.

Not to mention the crying that would take place if all cops were to become expert marksman, or skilled fighters. I read a statement in another thread a while ago were some clown was bitching about cops wearing BDU's and used an AR15. Then it goes from being to "well trained" to "not far from becoming a police state". At least thats the average balance here these days. There is no happy medium. And as far as this thread goes, its the same people, who either want to poke fun and laugh and say "ha ha what a screw up" or ctiticize how they know how to do the job better, because thats how they feel it should have been done. Keyboard quarterbacking is actually a lower skill set than armchair quarterbacking. And most folks doing either one, sorry to say, arent qualified for either.

 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well fuck me runnin. All of the answers, right here in this one little thread. </div></div>

This should be in the dictionary as and example of, A)Brevity, B)Irony, C)Sarcasm, D)Understatement.

There's more I'm sure but I'm tired.
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: opshin556</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Roddd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's good to see you bash SWAT officers that weren't there. Out of curiosity, do you work for California POST?</div></div>

No bashing man, LAPD SWAT guys rock.

The dept. politics just drag the morale to hell. </div></div>

Come show us dumbass coppers how it's done, since you're the be all end all of combat marksmanship.
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For those that want to criticize the lack of shooting skills. How many of you were involved in a stressful situation where one well placed shot ended the situation and you were the hero of the day? Anybody?
</div></div>


Laughable. The job description is 'protect and serve'. Paper pushers that can type and regurgitate law - can serve. You need to be able fight and shoot to protect.

If they can't, they shouldn't be there. Part of the problem is LE quals - they are generally static, stress free events that test minimum skill sets. And yet if you attend them you will see officers that could fuck up a steel ball. That is inexcusable. New policy: shit got harder and if you choose not to put the work in on your own to prove mastery during quals - you need to seek out a new job.



Good luck</div></div>

Good luck with that one. As it was stated earlier, some of these guys are not gun guys, and aside from quals, have little to no interest in handling their weapons. I agree that its on them to do their part. In one academy I attended range/quals were a week long (actual range not classroom time), and I logged over 1k rounds through my duty pistol, shooting movers, stress shooting, fire from cover,ect.. We had one guy, who I was amazed that he passed. He said it the first practice run, "I'm not a gun guy". But he passed. There are soldiers that make it passed basic that didn't qualify at 100%, doctors (including yours) that didn't graduate with honors, EMT's that didn't get a flawless score in their final test, and not all firemen made it to the top of the ladder first. How is it so acceptable that a cop must be held to such a high standard when their job is no more or less crucial to the others I mentioned. If any one of those can screw up, lives can be lost. How is this so different? You got some high expectations, only hope you are not disappointed in life all the time.

Not to mention the crying that would take place if all cops were to become expert marksman, or skilled fighters. I read a statement in another thread a while ago were some clown was bitching about cops wearing BDU's and used an AR15. Then it goes from being to "well trained" to "not far from becoming a police state". At least thats the average balance here these days. There is no happy medium. And as far as this thread goes, its the same people, who either want to poke fun and laugh and say "ha ha what a screw up" or ctiticize how they know how to do the job better, because thats how they feel it should have been done. Keyboard quarterbacking is actually a lower skill set than armchair quarterbacking. And most folks doing either one, sorry to say, arent qualified for either.

</div></div>

The reason that police must be held to higher standards, is that they are dispatched with firearms to deal with violence in a professional matter, in areas where innocent civilians may be hurt by a lack of training on their part.

Any policeman who cannot shoot, or physically fight, does him/herself a disservice. If a dept offers little to no training, I would suggest seeking it out for themselves, as many do, cuz its "their ass".

Edit to add: If someone isn't a gun guy, I think that detracts from their ability to use one adeptly in the line of duty. They should find another means of public service if they like.
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

I gotta say "collect and swerve" and "doughnut sights" and both gold.
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: opshin556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">once again L.A.s finest in action....
90 rounds and they hit him 11 times...
this from a coroner report i received this am.
every one of these guys should have firearms taken away and given batons and pepper spray..
if they need guns call SWAT, at least I know those guys can shoot; once in a while anyway.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/04/police-90-rounds-101-freeway.html </div></div>




Perhaps if you hadn't gotten yourself fired from the LAPD you'd still be around to show em how it's done. </div></div>


Damn!!! Lmao
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">If you post another "cop overstepping his bounds" post on here, I am banning you for 10 days.

We all get it, every once and a while some officer is having a bad day and goes off, a person video tapes it and puts it on youtube for everyone to see.

if you post it here, so everyone can tell they favorite cop bashing story, I am banning, you. End of Discussion, and consider this a warning to everyone.</span> </div></div>

Enough of these bullshit posts. This place is turning back into a High school bitch fest.
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 11B101ABN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: opshin556</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Roddd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's good to see you bash SWAT officers that weren't there. Out of curiosity, do you work for California POST?</div></div>

No bashing man, LAPD SWAT guys rock.

The dept. politics just drag the morale to hell. </div></div>

Come show us dumbass coppers how it's done, since you're the be all end all of combat marksmanship.



</div></div>


Guys, if you think for 1 minute this is acceptable response for professional LE in a large popular city like L.A. then we just disagree.
I am not bashing LE in any way, but the facts are the facts, i am simply providing information to an online community that touts itself as NOT being ARF.com.
If you feel the story has no place on a forum with active LE and military, and the moderators do not want me to post them anymore, i wont.
This incident should be used as a "teachable situation".
Do I think the bad guy deserved to be shot after threatening police during a 911 call and stating he had a firearm and was going to use it against LE?
very likely.
The police responded to a bad guy doing bad shit and it resulted in his demise, with no officers hurt.
that is the good part.
the whole point of the the story was to highlight the fact that no one knows where 79 rounds were sent.
In a big city like LA this is simply unacceptable.


 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: opshin556</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 11B101ABN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: opshin556</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Roddd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's good to see you bash SWAT officers that weren't there. Out of curiosity, do you work for California POST?</div></div>

No bashing man, LAPD SWAT guys rock.

The dept. politics just drag the morale to hell. </div></div>

Come show us dumbass coppers how it's done, since you're the be all end all of combat marksmanship.



</div></div>


Guys, if you think for 1 minute this is acceptable response for professional LE in a large popular city like L.A. then we just disagree.
I am not bashing LE in any way, but the facts are the facts, i am simply providing information to an online community that touts itself as NOT being ARF.com.
If you feel the story has no place on a forum with active LE and military, and the moderators do not want me to post them anymore, i wont.
This incident should be used as a "teachable situation".
Do I think the bad guy deserved to be shot after threatening police during a 911 call and stating he had a firearm and was going to use it against LE?
very likely.
The police responded to a bad guy doing bad shit and it resulted in his demise, with no officers hurt.
that is the good part.
the whole point of the the story was to highlight the fact that no one knows where 79 rounds were sent.
In a big city like LA this is simply unacceptable.


</div></div>

You should lobby your state legislators to require a couple of hours of weekly intensive firearms training until this sort of thing doesn't happen anymore. Shouldn't cost more than 50 or 60 million dollars.
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You should lobby your state legislators to require a couple of hours of weekly intensive firearms training until this sort of thing doesn't happen anymore. Shouldn't cost more than 50 or 60 million dollars. </div></div>

Seems like a reasonable price to pay to save a or many innocent lives from under trained people with poor skills.
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

Anyone with persoanl initiative should take it upon themselves to be proficient with the tools of their trade. If you're not good with the tools of your trade, you're lazy. You lack the drive for excellence. People who drive tractor trailers for a living should be proficient with their operation. People who work with computer applications should be proficient with the tools of the applications. And people who carry guns all day sure as heck should be REALLY proficient with their tools. I don't make excuses for my professional shortcomings; I work on correcting them. So should every other professional.
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

Im gona say this...... I am glad noone else got hit (as far as I know). It would be demoralizing if someone else got shot.
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

Funny how so many armchair experts give their opinions. I would guess these officers were all using their handguns and not long guns. Most officers under stress shoot VERY poorly considering most shoot only average with their sidearms. Sadly most departments practice very little and frown upon the deployment of long guns under most situations. Fortunately the DEA most recently modified their firearms policy and we are to afforded the option of the Rock River carbine as a primary weapon that is encouraged to be deployed.

If the officers had employed a carbine or shotgun with either slug or buckshot I'm sure the round count wound have been much lower
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M25BeastShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Most <span style="text-decoration: line-through">officers</span> people under stress shoot VERY poorly considering most shoot only average with their sidearms. </div></div>

Made a slight correction to your statement. It doesn't apply to <span style="font-style: italic">anyone</span> on this board, obviously. They've all been there, done that, made a kill shot from the hip, at a moving target, from 75 yards with adrenaline pumping. All from the comfort of the recliner.
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: maggot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Seems like a reasonable price to pay to save a or many innocent lives from under trained people with poor skills. </div></div>

I agree. Unfortunately those in charge don't feel that way. I know of a relatively large city that just decided to cut way back on practice ammo yet they spent $9,000,000.00 to create bicycle lanes around the city last year.
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

In a country where civilians can privately own most firearms and ammunition, training on ones own time and money is certainly doable.

I would think that the more dangerous and professional criminals do not sit around idly, rather they would be using part of their free time to improve on marksmanship and physical ability.

Whether a task is an enjoyable hobby or a tedious chore depends on the mindset.
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

I've got to hand it to a couple of LE guys at my range today. They were out practicing on their own time inserting random dummy rounds into each others magazine to practice. One guy shot okay but the other had a serious flinch with the .40 his department carries and could hardly hit anything.

Unfortunately he is stuck with the glock g22 his department carries. He felt uncomfortable with both the grip, trigger, and caliber but there was nothing he could do about it except practice.

At least in Seattle there is a sidearm qualified products list of sorts that the officers get to choose from. I hate when departments don't at least give a couple options.
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

In reality most departments and agencies put more value in report writing and processing paperwork. In their eyes the paper work and reports are something that is done everyday, its what generates revenue, successful prosecutions and statistics. In the minds of administrators shootings are a rarity and will be handled if and when they happen. This attitude spreads from the top down to the young motivated officer until he becomes numbed by the mind set.
As far as off duty practice, most police officers are NOT shooters the sidearm is JUST a tool that must be worn everyday and in their mind one that will most likely never used. Most officers would rather spend what time they have off with family, at the golf course or unfortunately at the bar with the "boys"

Just a sad fact. Been on the job 13 years and I've seen it.
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You should lobby your state legislators to require a couple of hours of weekly intensive firearms training until this sort of thing doesn't happen anymore. Shouldn't cost more than 50 or 60 million dollars. </div></div>

When I go to work, I must perform well or I get fired because a great deal of money is on the line, sometimes $50K per hour. I am expected to come to work with the skills, both physical and mental, to get that movie or TV show photographed to a high level of quality. Nobody pays for my training. Why shouldn't cops come to work with the training they need to do the job to the highest level, too?
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PanaDP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You should lobby your state legislators to require a couple of hours of weekly intensive firearms training until this sort of thing doesn't happen anymore. Shouldn't cost more than 50 or 60 million dollars. </div></div>

When I go to work, I must perform well or I get fired because a great deal of money is on the line, sometimes $50K per hour. I am expected to come to work with the skills, both physical and mental, to get that movie or TV show photographed to a high level of quality. Nobody pays for my training. Why shouldn't cops come to work with the training they need to do the job to the highest level, too? </div></div>

You make a good point, but the difference is that shooting is not the essence of LE. Good cops can be poor shooters and excellent shooters could make poor cops.

I think LE officers need to take it upon themselves to train on their own, but the culture needs to change from inside departments to hold officers to a higher standard of marksmanship.

Marksmanship for LE is actually more important than infantry soldiers because it is also important to have control over where the missed shots end up but sadly it falls by the wayside for other activities like catching speeding cars which bring money into the department.
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

Tell ya what Maggot, you and all the other critics can donate the necessary amount of your limitless wealth to one of the trainees that have recently taken up the job. Unfotunately, not every officer at every department has the mass of disposable income that people think we do. Some more veteran officers maked good, but everyone has to start somewhere, and you dont start off at 75k a year, not everywhere at least.

I am sure one or more of these new guys that are starting at under $1000/80 hours will be more than willing to train on your dime. Its obvious that the 100 pistol rounds, 20 rifle rounds and 16 shotgun rounds per year that the department is offering will not do it. Your right, the training is sub par. So is the income of many agencies. I would love to train as much as I use to, it sux that I just dont have the disposable income I use to.

And before you say, "get a new job", spare us. I dont know too many people able to just drop n go. Jobs arent exactly falling from the sky like they were 6 years ago. For a large majority of this country, just having a job is a gift. Not sure where you guys get your money from, but for those that work a lot for a little, have better things to spend it on. Instead, we will just sit back and let everyone who thinks they know how to do it better, be their ignorant selves on the net. Call it what you want, but thats the reality.
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

Adapt and improvise. I'm on the lower rung of the income ladder, but I get by good enough using snap caps for dry firing, airgun/airsoft for punching holes in targets and so on. All in the relative comfort of my home(No range fees or fuel expenses).
Would prefer to go out to the range more often though.
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PanaDP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

When I go to work, I must perform well or I get fired because a great deal of money is on the line, sometimes $50K per hour. I am expected to come to work with the skills, both physical and mental, to get that movie or TV show photographed to a high level of quality. Nobody pays for my training. Why shouldn't cops come to work with the training they need to do the job to the highest level, too? </div></div>

The shitbag in this story is dead, no innocent people were struck by bullets. To those who have a fucking clue, the officers did a fine job.

How anyone can make a determination about the officers proficiency, the reasons for the misses or the circumstances based on the incomplete information provided by the story is beyond me. It certainly makes the bias boil to the surface rather quickly though, doesn't it? What really matters is that everyone in the internet knows that everyone else on the internet could have done it better.
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

If/when George Zimmerman is exonerated, maybe he can hire himself out as an expert consultant to the LAPD and NYPD.

He's one for one for shot/hit and hit/kill ratios.

(too soon?)
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

This response of "if you want cops who are competent with firearms then you need to vote for it..."

What a load of entitled, responsibility shirking and plain disingenuous crap. Time and again and on this thread also, when civvies do get involved the same people respond with their other entitled, responsibility shirking and disingenuous line, "you're not PD, you couldn't possibly understand, so shut up."

So which is it? Is it our fault that cops can't use their own guns and dont practice or is it because the machinations of police work is so mysterious we should just give in to the annual demands of the mafia called public unions and be grateful there are police departments that support anti-2nd laws because after all, who needs guns when there are cops with guns...
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

+1 DCR
Returning fire while under fire is not like shooting paper at your range . I'm not judging because I wasn't there. You weren't either.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">8 cops. 90 rounds. 10ish each. 1 hit each? Or 1 person with 100% hit rate?
smile.gif


I'm not going to judge. I wasn't there. </div></div>
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This response of "if you want cops who are competent with firearms then you need to vote for it..."

What a load of entitled, responsibility shirking and plain disingenuous crap. Time and again and on this thread also, when civvies do get involved the same people respond with their other entitled, responsibility shirking and disingenuous line, "you're not PD, you couldn't possibly understand, so shut up."

So which is it? Is it our fault that cops can't use their own guns and dont practice or is it because the machinations of police work is so mysterious we should just give in to the annual demands of the mafia called public unions and be grateful there are police departments that support anti-2nd laws because after all, who needs guns when there are cops with guns...

</div></div>

Seems to me they used their guns just fine. No innocent people were injured and the bad guy got what he wanted. The officers weren't up to "internet standards" but they got the job done nonetheless.
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

I am always frustrated by people who constantly try to shut down discussion when they run out of argument. (Not calling out anyone specifically by name)

It is not ignorance (and no reasonable argument can be made for it)to state that policemen who fire many times, and miss many times, need to shoot better for the sake of people who dont deserve to be shot. Ignoring all notions of professionalism, or liability, compassion for another person should drive the need for better marksmanship. How many times are criminals vilified for shooting an innocent child on a playground? Do bullets not hit children when police fire them also? This is just a point im making. Im not screaming "Do it for the children" lol

Its not armchair quarterbacking to say that its in a persons best interest, to be able to shoot better than the people shooting back at them, for their own good. Not being a LEO doesnt mean that a civilian doesnt know the truth of things.The fact that depts. dont spend enough on training, doesnt mean that training isnt needed anyway.

Calling people ignorant, internet wannabe, armchair quarterback, is the same tactic as calling someone a racist when racism is not involved. Its a childish tactic used to shut someone down, when you cant do it with debate.

Some of you should consider agreeing with what is obvious, even if its a point you didnt make yourselves. This discussion should grow beyond this forum and spread to enough people that these changes in policy might actually happen. It will never happen though with all the childishness name calling.

Edit to add: Im not saying that these guys did a bad job. I re read my post and wanted to be clear. This particular incident may have allowed for ever missed round to go somewhere safe, how would I know at all. I am only saying that reports like this spark discussion, and that the discussion can bring positive change, but first people need to remove their egos and discuss as if everything isnt a personal insult.
 
Re: LAPD spray and pray

And what would you use to measure the "acceptable" performance? The actions of the police are scrutinized from the perspective of what a reasonable officer would have done in the same situation and given the same information.
Were these officers irresponsible in this shooting?
Did they have a safe backstop?
Was the suspect standing still or was he moving?
-How quickly was he moving?
-Was he moving linearly or lateral?
Was the suspect partially behind cover?
How much time did the officers have to shoot?

Any would be very valid questions and necessary information to have to reach an educated conclusion. Strangely no one cares to ask those questions. We simply look at the hit ratio and come to the determination that these officers can't handle a gun. What punishment should be dished out and who should dish it out for this extremely poor display of proficiency? Do they have someone on their agency so experienced in gun fighting that they can make an objective decision on the performance of the officers? Is that person the one tasked with training these officers? What should be the standard and who should apply it? Should the "judged by a jury of peers" mentality be used or should the actions of these officers be judged by people (officers included) who have never been in a similar situation?

I'm all for a rational discussion.
 
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