LAPD spray and pray

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[
Seems to me they used their guns just fine. No innocent people were injured and the bad guy got what he wanted. The officers weren't up to "internet standards" but they got the job done nonetheless. </div></div>

Laughable. So in the parlance of your standards - would you credit the stray rounds not finding a home in an innocent to 'training' or GOD?

Another point that seems to zoom past some of the defenders in the thread - who whine about training cost vs municipality budget constraints (and union demands) - not all training involves live ammo, a LOT of training is mindset. Some of the best is FOF - sim too expensive? What does a decent airsoft cost? @ $200. Add some rolling with one or two others on a mat, in the dark, while seated at a table, in the front seat of a car, while trying to hook up another and attacked from behind - MSU (make shit up) and now it really is 'training'.

However we all know how these threads end - crys of bashing and some left feeling incredulous that civis voice anything but heaps of praise.


Good luck

 

[Phylodog]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[
Seems to me they used their guns just fine. No innocent people were injured and the bad guy got what he wanted. The officers weren't up to "internet standards" but they got the job done nonetheless. </div></div>

Laughable. So in the parlance of your standards - would you credit the stray rounds not finding a home in an innocent to 'training' or GOD?

Another point that seems to zoom past some of the defenders in the thread - who whine about training cost vs municipality budget constraints (and union demands) - not all training involves live ammo, a LOT of training is mindset. Some of the best is FOF - sim too expensive? What does a decent airsoft cost? @ $200. Add some rolling with one or two others on a mat, in the dark, while seated at a table, in the front seat of a car, while trying to hook up another and attacked from behind - MSU (make shit up) and now it really is 'training'.

However we all know how these threads end - crys of bashing and some left feeling incredulous that civis voice anything but heaps of praise.


Good luck </div></div>

Sim training is more expensive than live ammo.

No cries of bashing here. I've come to expect it from some of the members so it's old hat. Doesn't mean I won't voice my opposing opinion, my <span style="font-style: italic">educated</span> opinion.

 

[OregonShooter]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

Airsoft not sims, reading is crucial. If you are tasked to carry a gun and can't shoot better than a 12 year old ipsc shooter... You should lose your job.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

Since you chose to selectivly read my post let's go back to your educated opinion - was it by the grace of GOD or training that provided that the errant rounds didn't lodge in some innocent child's skull?

Bottom line it is mindset - is an individual officer willing to commit their own time and resources to honing their chops (or willing to say that a herd of LE dumping the vast majority of their rounds and scoring mikes, is unacceptable job performance). Most aren't willing to put the work in (hats off to those that do). Most are also incensed at civi feedback. And yet every single one will proclaim to have an educated opinion on the subject.



Good luck

 

[OregonShooter]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

Just got back from the IPSC match. 30 shooters and one LEO who is a Master class shooter that travels over 100 miles to shoot with us.

Local LEO, nadda. See a problem? I do, saw it when I was on the local SO and watching LEO quals all the time at our range.

LEO hardly ever need to shoot, but when they do they need to make hits. The cost potential is way too high. The only way it will change is by making quals harder, Officers will not do it on their own, just as 90% of CCW s will not either.

 

[no1special]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

a preface; i know little about big city departments, my only experience is with small town, mostly part-time for multiple department officers. the majority of them wait to the last month or two of the year for their annual qualification. more than one passes because of a 9mm or 40 pencil. they have not even removed the firearm from the holster since last year. just facts people. i watched an officer miss a target from 25 yards with buckshot. i made a comment to the training officer and was told, "that officer only works daylight so will never need the shotgun." town has three banks and is right next to an interstate. doh! "professional leo?"

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

I wouldn't worry about it Mo, he's also chosen to ignore the <span style="font-style: italic">educated</span> opinions of those who are/were or work with LEO that don't support his view.

For some people, having a badge and a uniform means they just <span style="font-style: italic">can't</span> be wrong...

 

[fpdsniper]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

In my 23+ years of police work, I've found that 90% of the non-LEO public believe they know how the police should do their job without ever having any experience and/or training. Amazing. Yet almost none of them would try to tell their plumber how to do his job. So, for the record, when people on internet forums tell me how I should be doing my job, I always ask them to list their level of education and/or training and experience in Law Enforcement. I seldom, if ever, get a reply. I do find it interesting that avid shooters that shoot great tiny little groups at static targets that aren't moving or shooting back feel that they are qualified to armchair quarterback officers involved in a shooting. I've been shot at on duty. Both times the shots came from a large gathering of people who like to paint images of pitch forks, and such. There was no range safety officers, IPSC judge, etc. standing there with a timer. There was no easy to identify perp that stood in the open motionless waiting for me to return fire. In both cases, I did NOT return fire due to the number of people and my inability to identify exactly who just took the shot at me. Those of you that criticize the shooting ability of a police officer based on YOUR performance at the range are simply comparing apples to oranges. If you don't understand this, I can't help you.

 

[Slapchop]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Bottom line it is mindset - is an individual officer willing to commit their own time and resources to honing their chops (or willing to say that a herd of LE dumping the vast majority of their rounds and scoring mikes, is unacceptable job performance). Most aren't willing to put the work in (hats off to those that do). <span style="color: #FF0000">Most are also incensed at civi feedback. And yet every single one will proclaim to have an educated opinion on the subject.</span>
Good luck </div></div>

Well until you've done it or somehow experienced it, you're opinion will continue to mean dick. Don't get me wrong, you're entitled to have it and voice it all you want but it means nothing because the truth of the matter is, you DON'T know what you're talking about. Might be a hard pill for some to swallow but it is what it is.

For you and those that think the standards are low (which they are) and that things could be done better (which they can), why not step up to the plate and strap on a vest and gunbelt and hump a sector car. How's the saying go "Be the change you want to see in the world". Shit, I'd be more than happy to give you my gun and shield.

By the way, your "feedback" doesn't incense me. I actually welcome it. Not only do I enjoy a verbal joust but the comic relief I get from reading some of the posts on here is actually therapeutic. Or so I've been told.

 

[Slapchop]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fpdsniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="color: #FF0000">In my 23+ years of police work, I've found that 90% of the non-LEO public believe they know how the police should do their job without ever having any experience and/or training.</span> Amazing. Yet almost none of them would try to tell their plumber how to do his job. So, for the record, when people on internet forums tell me how I should be doing my job, I always ask them to list their level of education and/or training and experience in Law Enforcement. I seldom, if ever, get a reply. <span style="color: #FF0000">I do find it interesting that avid shooters that shoot great tiny little groups at static targets that aren't moving or shooting back feel that they are qualified to armchair quarterback officers involved in a shooting.</span> I've been shot at on duty. Both times the shots came from a large gathering of people who like to paint images of pitch forks, and such. There was no range safety officers, IPSC judge, etc. standing there with a timer. There was no easy to identify perp that stood in the open motionless waiting for me to return fire. In both cases, I did NOT return fire due to the number of people and my inability to identify exactly who just took the shot at me. <span style="color: #FF0000">Those of you that criticize the shooting ability of a police officer based on YOUR performance at the range are simply comparing apples to oranges. If you don't understand this, I can't help you.</span> </div></div>

Ignorance and blind, agenda fueled stupidity is what it all boils down to.

You hit the nail on the head but unfortunately its all for naught. These people don't want to see any other perspective other than their own. Their minds are already made up. Who cares? Collect your paycheck, sign out at the end of tour and make it two 20 so you can get your pension. Then you'll be the one laughing... All the way to the bank.

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fpdsniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="color: #FF0000">In my 23+ years of police work, I've found that 90% of the non-LEO public believe they know how the police should do their job without ever having any experience and/or training.</span> Amazing. Yet almost none of them would try to tell their plumber how to do his job. So, for the record, when people on internet forums tell me how I should be doing my job, I always ask them to list their level of education and/or training and experience in Law Enforcement. I seldom, if ever, get a reply. <span style="color: #FF0000">I do find it interesting that avid shooters that shoot great tiny little groups at static targets that aren't moving or shooting back feel that they are qualified to armchair quarterback officers involved in a shooting.</span> I've been shot at on duty. Both times the shots came from a large gathering of people who like to paint images of pitch forks, and such. There was no range safety officers, IPSC judge, etc. standing there with a timer. There was no easy to identify perp that stood in the open motionless waiting for me to return fire. In both cases, I did NOT return fire due to the number of people and my inability to identify exactly who just took the shot at me. <span style="color: #FF0000">Those of you that criticize the shooting ability of a police officer based on YOUR performance at the range are simply comparing apples to oranges. If you don't understand this, I can't help you.</span> </div></div>

Ignorance and blind, agenda fueled stupidity is what it all boils down to.

You hit the nail on the head but unfortunately its all for naught. These people don't want to see any other perspective other than their own. Their minds are already made up. <span style="color: #FF0000">Who cares? Collect your paycheck, sign out at the end of tour and make it two 20 so you can get your pension. Then you'll be the one laughing... All the way to the bank.</span>

</div></div>

And THAT is why the police public pensions are a bunch of crooks and why there is a growing fracture between what the police say they do and what they actually do and why the public is trusting and valuing them less and less each day.

It seems it's not just those on welfare who suckle on the taxpayer's teat.

AGAIN, neither of you have even commented on YOUR colleagues who have stated there is a pervasive lack of skill with firearms within LE. You just whine the same tune - 'you don't know, oh the agony, you don't know'.

The basic point of this thread is 'why can't cops shoot better if when they need their firearms it's a matter of life/death'.

The response has been, "fuck you, I'm in this for the pension".

Well, fuck you too.

 

[Slapchop]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

HAHAHAHA!!!! You mad bro? Did I strike a nerve? lol How about you read the WHOLE thread and one of my very first posts here. I clearly acknowledge the lack of shooting skills by MOST cops. In fact I was the first one to say something. But of course, typical of your kind, you only see what you want to see.

As far as suckle off the taxpayers teat goes, I contribute into MY pension and it's matched by the municipality. I happen to be a taxpayer as well. Am I in it for the pension, fuck yea. You won't find many around here that aren't. Try shoveling shit day in day out for twenty years. You'd want a reward at the end too. Same shit goes for firemen, teachers, politicians and sanitation guys.

Your hatred toward public sector employees reeks of jealousy and envy. Not my fault you didn't think about this before choosing your career path.

Oh, and by the way, the fact remains, you don't know.

 

[Veer_G]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

If anyone, and I mean anyone, were in a similar position as a group or as an individual and managed 10% hits on such a target they might have gotten some grief. I don't believe in personal infallibility with or without credentials, and I agree that anyone who sallies forth under arms should do so with as much training as is possible. Once a year or twice a year doesn't cut it for anyone.

Video:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/20...discipline.html

http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_20380819/video-abdul-arian-19-pursued-by-lapd-101

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/13/abdul-arian-101-freeway_n_1423533.html

I do ask myself if a sworn and a non-sworn individual would be held to the same standards in such a circumstance, with an individual moving in such a manner and holding an unknown object in a threatening way. Much like prior cases, this may also be a case of sympathetic response on the part of some of the officers; once one of them made the decision to fire, others may have joined in.

It's unfortunate that this thread has come down to so much tooth-gnashing and mutual insults, Were that we could discuss this in a thoughtful and intelligent fashion without descending so low.

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">HAHAHAHA!!!! You mad bro? Did I strike a nerve? lol How about you read the WHOLE thread and one of my very first posts here. I clearly acknowledge the lack of shooting skills by MOST cops. In fact I was the first one to say something. But of course, typical of your kind, you only see what you want to see.

As far as suckle off the taxpayers teat goes, I contribute into MY pension and it's matched by the municipality. I happen to be a taxpayer as well. Am I in it for the pension, fuck yea. You won't find many around here that aren't. Try shoveling shit day in day out for twenty years. You'd want a reward at the end too. Same shit goes for firemen, teachers, politicians and sanitation guys.

Your hatred toward public sector employees reeks of jealousy and envy. Not my fault you didn't think about this before choosing your career path.

Oh, and by the way, the fact remains, you don't know. </div></div>

Of course you hit a nerve. I'm a sentient being with the ability smell bullshit and that alone should make me angry at, at least 90% of the crap from the 'oh you don't know' crowd.

On the subject of not reading posts, you've failed to take into account what I wrote. Your response was 'if you want better cops then vote for them'. That's your answer to everything. No personal responsibility whatever. Kinda like the bitches on welfare. Well not kinda.

You suggest I'm envious of public employees. Nope. Try selectively contemptuous. My garbage guys are great. They pick up the garbage when they're supposed to and when the wind has blown some onto the streets, they even pick that up as well. What they don't do is tell me that I'm too lazy to vote and petition that they shouldn't be too lazy to pick up the garbage effectively. That's your gig it seems. Any shortcomings in your line of work is because citizens aren't industrious enough pushing for laws to mandate that you should be able to do your job.

What a laugh. You know why we're too busy? It's because we're actually working for our money. we need to show effectiveness and value and are held personally accountable for what we do in the workplace. It's called being a productive member of society. Perhaps after you've gotten your pension you can get a job where if you fuck up you can't say it's someone else's fault that you were allowed to fuck up. But then, how would fuck ups survive without the unions to protect them....? How indeed.

 

[Slapchop]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

Eventhorizon wrote,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
AGAIN, neither of you have even commented on YOUR colleagues who have stated there is a pervasive lack of skill with firearms within LE. You just whine the same tune - 'you don't know, oh the agony, you don't know'. </div></div>

I read what you wrote and I responded to that. Apparently you're going to dance around my response because it makes you look like a fool. You must NOT have read my 2nd post here because then you wouldn't have made the above comment. Again though, people like you are BLIND and only see what you want to see and when presented with facts and solutions to your gripes, you keep on repeating your same tired old mantra.

Try it with someone who doesn't know better and isn't able to call your bullshit for exactly what it is, bullshit. Glad you're in love with your garbageman. I'm sure you don't tell them how to pick up trash and if you did, they'd probably tell you to go fuck yourself. Why do you expect any different from cops? Its tiring to see limp dicked, pencil pushers who are afraid of their own shadow, thus they feel the need to eat, shit, sleep with a gun, telling you how to do your job.

You're the laugh and the joke is on you. I could give a flying fuck what you think of me, cops or the law enforcement sector in general. And that stems from the fact that your opinion means dick to me. Like I said before, strap on a vest and gunbelt, walk a post in East NY and then I'll grant you an audience. Till then, this is just shit I do when the commercials come on.

FYI, I don't plan on getting an ACTUAL job after retirement. My lucrative pension will see to that. Sucker!

 

[daybreak1199]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

I have been on both sides of the fence, as a former Federal LEO and with a large Municipal Department. That said, I have seen all types just like with any job, you have the ones that are just taking up everyone’s good air, and then you have the other end of the spectrum, some super gung ho hard charger that spends every last bit of his money on the latest and greatest gear. Here in California it is hard to get support for training that for the most part is seen as second string. The public would much rather fund some kind of sensitivity or Community Policing effort than to give money to what is perceived as a very Para-military / over-the-top training for AR qualifications or even advanced pistol training.

Several of the big departments do not provide long guns to Patrol Officers, you are issued a side arm and you check out your 12ga and a less lethal 12ga, you are given enough rounds to patrol ready the shotgun and have 5 extra for your bandolier. Same with your issued Sig 9mm, you get something like 52 rounds issued…that’s it, the rest is on the officer to buy authorized department approved ammunition to carry in his duty bag for use if the shit hits the fan. Many So Cal departments will authorize an officer to purchase an AR to carry on duty, but that is 100% out of the officer’s pocket. Depending on the budget I have seen the qualification classes the officer must attend and pass to be able to carry the AR on duty, require the officer to provide his own training ammo, somewhere in the range of 500+ rounds…again out of pocket.

You know who is coming to back you, or assist on a call. Those who aren’t up to par usually are directed out to set up the outer cordon, or some other perimeter duties. I know California is much different than anyplace else in the US, but surprisingly enough, the current minimum POST (certifying body) requirements still have firearms as the most heavily weighted class. I don’t know what the answer is, more money for training would be one part, having the training staff fully supported by the command is another aspect. Training needs to be given the resources necessary to combat the current day to day threats, that aren’t just firearms manipulation, it also goes to Defensive Tactics, and all of the other perishable skills that require repetition and frequent updating to stay relevant in today’s threat space.

Basic Course

July 1, 2010

DOMAIN
NUMBER DOMAIN DESCRIPTION MINIMUM
HOURS
01 Leadership, Professionalism & Ethics 8 hours
02 Criminal Justice System 2 hours
03 Policing in the Community 18 hours
04 Victimology/Crisis Intervention 6 hours
05 Introduction to Criminal Law 4 hours
06 Property Crimes 6 hours
07 Crimes Against Persons/Death Investigation 6 hours
08 General Criminal Statutes 2 hours
09 Crimes Against Children 4 hours
10 Sex Crimes 4 hours
11 Juvenile Law and Procedure 3 hours
12 Controlled Substances 12 hours
13 ABC Law (Alcohol Beverage Control) 2 hours
15 Laws of Arrest 12 hours
16 Search and Seizure 12 hours
17 Presentation of Evidence 6 hours
18 <span style="color: #FF0000"> Investigative Report Writing 52 hours</span>
19 Vehicle Operations 24 hours
20 Use of Force 12 hours
21 Patrol Techniques 12 hours
22 Vehicle Pullovers 14 hours
23 Crimes in Progress 20 hours
24 Handling Disputes/Crowd Control 8 hours
25 Domestic Violence 10 hours
26 Unusual Occurrences 4 hours
27 Missing Persons 4 hours
28<span style="color: #FF0000">Traffic Enforcement 16 hours</span>
29 Traffic Collision Investigations 12 hours
30 Crime Scenes, Evidence, and Forensics 12 hours
31 Custody 2 hours
32<span style="color: #FF0000">Lifetime Fitness 44 hours</span>
33<span style="color: #FF0000">Arrest Methods/Defensive Tactics 60 hours</span>

34 First Aid and CPR 21 hours
35<span style="color: #FF0000">Firearms/Chemical Agents 72 hours</span>

36 Information Systems 2 hours
37 People with Disabilities 6 hours
38 Gang Awareness 2 hours
39 Crimes Against the Justice System 4 hours
40 Weapons Violations 4 hours
41 Hazardous Materials Awareness 4 hours
42 Cultural Diversity/Discrimination 16 hours
43 Emergency Management 16 hours

Minimum Instructional Hours 560 hours

 

[Phylodog]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Some of the best is FOF - sim too expensive? </div></div>

Yeah, I guess reading is fundamental.

 

[Phylodog]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

And THAT is why the police public pensions are a bunch of crooks and why there is a growing fracture between what the police say they do and what they actually do and why the public is trusting and valuing them less and less each day.

It seems it's not just those on welfare who suckle on the taxpayer's teat.

AGAIN, neither of you have even commented on YOUR colleagues who have stated there is a pervasive lack of skill with firearms within LE. You just whine the same tune - 'you don't know, oh the agony, you don't know'.

The basic point of this thread is 'why can't cops shoot better if when they need their firearms it's a matter of life/death'.

The response has been, "fuck you, I'm in this for the pension".

Well, fuck you too.

</div></div>

Well as far as my having an educated opinion on the matter I spend 40-60 hours a week implementing and executing training for 1700+ police officers in handgun, shotgun, patrol rifle and sniper rifles.

And our pension is self funded so have a large helping of your own and go fuck yourself.

 

[OregonShooter]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

I see all the regular characters have made it into the script again. People ask why cops don't shoot better, cops whine they ain't got time or the department won't pay for training, some say STFU unless you have walked in my shoes, people who are CCW and train in their own dime say, dryfire/airsoft/compete, everyone goes back to doing the same.

Did I miss anyhing? Oh yeah, you have only yourself to blame for not being the best you can be and I would appreciate a little more time spent on the range so that others may live.

Ps> did the LEO thing long enough to know you earn any pension you make it to. Job sucks 90% of the time, but I never got off graves so maybe there is a better side I didn't see.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

For those that know (Cal Trans types) based on the white line spacing it looks like the max distance was @ 75 yrds?

Also - does that department have patrol rifles in some / most / all cars?



Good luck

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

Phylo - I have no issue with paying into public pensions as a taxpayer. It's when that I do and at the same time I'm told constantly 'it's not enough, we need more' and then the same old excuse - 'if you want me to be better at my job, then it's your fault that I'm not' and so on that starts to grate - just more than a little.

Likewise, when the people who I and others pay through our own hard earned money, support and enforce, without so much as a unified resistance to, unlawful or un-Constitutional laws, well, that starts to grate as well.

You guys are fond of saying that we should for once try and see it from your perspective, well, how about some of the same?

I run my mouth more than I should and I get heated, that's my bad and a flaw, but my points are what I believe.

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DVC Guns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I see all the regular characters have made it into the script again. People ask why cops don't shoot better, cops whine they ain't got time or the department won't pay for training, some say STFU unless you have walked in my shoes, people who are CCW and train in their own dime say, dryfire/airsoft/compete, everyone goes back to doing the same.

Did I miss anyhing? Oh yeah, you have only yourself to blame for not being the best you can be and I would appreciate a little more time spent on the range so that others may live.

Ps> did the LEO thing long enough to know you earn any pension you make it to. Job sucks 90% of the time, but I never got off graves so maybe there is a better side I didn't see. </div></div>

Bravo.

My apologies for suggesting all who serve as LE don't deserve their pay/pension. I over-reacted to the red rag.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Some of the best is FOF - sim too expensive? </div></div>

Yeah, I guess reading is fundamental. </div></div>

It's like you stduied under Bill Klinton - you answer only the parts you think you have a position in and ignore the rest. Oblivious to fact that being obtuse or abstaining on other issues says it all.



Good luck

 

[Slapchop]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Some of the best is FOF - sim too expensive? </div></div>

Yeah, I guess reading is fundamental. </div></div>

It's like you stduied under Bill Klinton - <span style="color: #FF0000">you answer only the parts you think you have a position in and ignore the rest. Oblivious to fact that being obtuse or abstaining on other issues says it all.
</span>


Good luck </div></div>

Classic, the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

Slap - show me a question posed to me that I did not answer. Or would just care to hide behind - you don't have this gig so STFU?




Good luck

 

[Slapchop]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Slap - show me a question posed to me that I did not answer. <span style="color: #FF0000">Or would just care to hide behind - you don't have this gig so STFU?
</span>
Good luck </div></div>

Real original bro, I think someone said that already, twice. At least you know your place so I give you some points for that.

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

Answer him. You called him out on dodging your questions so state which ones are left wanting a response from him.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">. At least you know your place so I give you some points for that. </div></div>


Slap - any time you wonder why folks don't dig LE - you just sit back and reflect.

 

[Slapchop]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">. At least you know your place so I give you some points for that. </div></div>

Slap - any time you wonder why folks don't dig LE - you just sit back and reflect

</div></div>

Mo, read my post directed at EH. I don't give a flying fuck what you or anyone else thinks about the LE sector. While you're entitled to your opinion, to me your lack of knowledge and experience renders it worthless. Oh wait, can I say that? Or am I "hiding" behind the truth again?

EH, I wouldn't be so concerned with whom I acknowledge or respond to when you yourself failed to respond to my rebuttal. Well you kinda did in a back peddling type of way. You can take your apologies and stuff them up your selectively contemptuous ass.

How's that nerve? lol

 

[daybreak1199]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

^^^just mud slinging now, we've lost sight on making something productive and enlightening come from this thread. Both of you should take a break an relax a bit.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">. At least you know your place so I give you some points for that. </div></div>

Slap - any time you wonder why folks don't dig LE - you just sit back and reflect

</div></div>

Mo, read my post directed at EH. I don't give a flying fuck what you or anyone else thinks about the LE sector. While you're entitled to your opinion, to me your lack of knowledge and experience renders it worthless. Oh wait, can I say that? Or am I "hiding" behind the truth again?

EH, I wouldn't be so concerned with whom I acknowledge or respond to when you yourself failed to respond to my rebuttal. Well you kinda did in a back peddling type of way. You can take your apologies and stuff them up your selectively contemptuous ass.

How's that nerve? lol

</div></div>


Slap - you're a very small and weak minded person - you stand naked before the world with your posts. I pity you. I can only pray that you find solace and genuine confidence at some point in your life.


Peace.


Good luck

 

[Foul Mike]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

Good thread, Surprized it has lasted this long without a Mod shutting it down.
Good points brought out by both sides.
From a personal perspective; I have shot with LEOs in my area at the range in years past and have seen both sides of the spectrum. Some were very good and could shoot a gnats ass at 100m., no problem, and others that couldn't hit a bull's ass at 10m.
I knew who I would want taking care of a situation involving shooting if I were in the area.
Fire discipline is a most important matter be it LE or for people like me[ex-military.]
I have seen in the Army where guys went nuts and fired mag after mag when a few shots actually got the job done. Not good for trying to be stealthy.
I am sure the same happens with LE and have seen the aftermath in LE shootings in my small community over a lot of years, just a few incidents. Many shots fired and nobody hit, many shots fired and the perp riddled, as well as one or two shots fired and the perp dead as a wedge.
The one or two shots fired and game over were from officers that were good shooters and knew when to stop, no more shots were necessary. The others were from a gang of LEOs and when one shot went off all hell broke loose, fire all you have, drop the mag and give them some more.
I am of the oppinion that the LEO is carring a tool of his job and should be proficient with it, practicing with either issue ammo or stuff he bought with his own money. It is his ass he is protecting as well as innocent people in the area.
In the Army I was on both sides of the fence, I did fire mag after mag some times and only one or two when required. I know what adrenaline is all about and sometimes it takes a bunch of ammo to get control of a situation. I also still feel a squad leaders boot in my ass when one or two would do and not compromize a mission when I had fired several mags.
When shooting with the local LEOs years ago and seeing the good ones and the bad I would many times be quite disgusted with the poor shots and their attitude toward shooting. Practice a week before quals and hope for the best while the good ones practiced regularly and a qual was a cakewalk for them.
One group looked forward to quals while others dreaded it.
I sure don't think that enough training is put in to help the officers of today but do feel that most of them could do a lot better if they took it upon themselves to train more even if the cost is coming out of their own pockets.
It's kind of like a mechanic buying his tools, he may have one that will get the job done with a lot of effort or buying a new on that makes that task easy.
Just my 2 cents worth and take it as you want. Regards, FM

 

[desertrat1979]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

Ya know, this thread has really degraded. If there is anything that everyone here has agreed upon, training is not adequate, and not all cops care to put the effort into making themselves better.

MoZamBeek, EventHorizon, I dont know what you do for a living. It doesnt matter where you work. I am happy for if you put your best into it, and I am sure it pays off. I am also sure there are those you work with that do not share your work ethics, dont put in the extra effort, and are just riding it out until retirement too. Prior to LE, I worked a lot of jobs. This balance is everywhere. It is not a fixable issue. The biggest problem in making changing decisions is people dont often look at the long term results.

Back to what I said about your jobs. Would I not look like an ass if I were to criticize your line of work, yet I have probably never done it? Regardless of how strongly I feel about my opinion. But, when it comes to a public servant's job, everyone is an expert. That is why the "you havent done the job, you cant say anything" line is put into play. We dont do it to you, its presumptuous, and lacks foundation.

You are also right in that it falls on the individual to improve. As stated previously, being a firearm enthusiast is not a job requirement. Some just dont care to shoot, and chose the job for other reasons. I know that one thing I never bothered with was memorizing speed formulas. Accident investigation was the least interesting part of the job, so it was hard to give it my full attention. I was able to do it, but lacked the motivation to put in the extra effort. Many just want to do their shift and make it home, which is a form of being complacent. Some are lazy, others not interested, some took to other facets of the job, and they just dont involve shooting as being a part of the picture. I would love to be able to train like I use to. I would spend hundreds of dollars a month to be as proficient as I can. Just cant afford it now. When things get more stable, fine, I am all for it. Till then I have other priorities. Snap caps n dry firing only get you so far. You can try to argue this till you are blue in the face. One response that you and several others here refuse to accept is a lack of support that officers get from the agency they are with. I dont care how you "feel" about that respone, but it is a major contributing factor. They dont want to offer training, allow for time off for the officer to ttrain outside the agency, perhaps offer some sort of allowance to let them train on their own, whether its financial, staffing or liability issues, it does have an affect. Draw whatever conclusion you want, but thats the truth.

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

Slap - you weren't the one being apologized to.

Desert - you're right, there are slackers in the private sector and they get canned on a regular basis. Also, if/when someone messes up, it's rare that it causes stray bullets and potential deaths of citizens.

Also, as grossly overpaid as Slap is I have every right to criticize him because I'm a taxpayer. No-one paid for me to go to college. No-one pays for my work resources. It's all privately funded and earned through adding value at work.

I am not so simple as to ignore the reality that some care much more than they are able to do. To them I'm grateful and my comments here are not applicable. It's the leaches who not only don't care but also actively hold the people who pay them and their rights in contempt that my comments are aimed at.

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

I voted for amendment 69, which in my county would mean all paroled shitbags must at all times where a dohnut on a necklace around their neck, this way the local stellers might hit something they need to shoot cause the prize is right there in front of them

 

[Slapchop]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Slap - you weren't the one being apologized to.

Desert - you're right, there are slackers in the private sector and they get canned on a regular basis. Also, if/when someone messes up, it's rare that it causes stray bullets and potential deaths of citizens.

Also, as grossly overpaid as Slap is I have every right to criticize him because I'm a taxpayer. No-one paid for me to go to college. No-one pays for my work resources. It's all privately funded and earned through adding value at work.

I am not so simple as to ignore the reality that some care much more than they are able to do. To them I'm grateful and my comments here are not applicable. It's the leaches who not only don't care but also actively hold the people who pay them and their rights in contempt that my comments are aimed at.

</div></div>

EH, your backpedaling is comical, and it's what happens when you try to present an unoriginal and uninformed opinion of something. I would bet a lot of money that you have no idea how the pension fund really works. Or how the pension fund was used to bail the city of NY out of a financial crisis years ago. Bet you didn't know that we contribute into our own system so in essence its OUR own money, our OWN interest. Yet you have the balls to call us leeches of society? Even though its our own money lol? Sounds like you're turning into an emotional green monster rife with envy.

This whole <span style="font-weight: bold">"let me demonize public sector workers because their salaries and retirement benefits are crippling the economy"</span> bit is ludicrous to say the least. But most people love a bandwagon since it means that they can NOT think for themselves and instead just sit along for the ride. I would love to see guys like you, take this position for 3 years, just so I could hear your opinion at the end of that time.

As far as being "grossly overpaid" as far as I'm concerned you couldn't pay us enough to do what we do. But if you're jealous of our meager compensation and benefits package, why not switch careers bro? Come on over to the darkside and see just how "good" we have it. If not, then don't be mad at me because I had the sense to see well into the future and chose something with stability and security that is going to provide for me and my family. You're a taxpayer? Whoop-Dee-Fucking-Doo! So am I. Welcome to America buddy, it's how we do it here. You work and you pay taxes. Spare me the old tired line. Are you even a resident of NYC? If things are so bad for you here, why not just bail out and move? Go somewhere else, you won't be missed.

In the meantime, try slowing down and actually digesting what you take in. You might realize that aside from the shit slinging and the financial aspect that this thread has now taken thanks to you, we're not that far apart when it comes to the whole proficiency with a firearm issue. If you slowed down a bit instead of posting like an enraged 12 year old girl, you'd be able to see these things. Don't let your blind hatred get in the way because it makes you irrational.

 

[Slapchop]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

Also gotta love some of you guys. If cops train TOO much they're wannabe Seals or Spec Ops military types that have no business carrying anything other than a six shooter.

If cops don't train at all then they should be fired because they're not putting in "enough" work and effort for the job.

Which is it today guys?

 

[300rockbuster]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

I don't Care how much you train, or how real your training is yo can't train for the adrenaline dump of knowing ”this shit is real”. I've trained in many house fires and there is a huge diference between real and staged. Until you are in the situation you will never know how you will react, you just hope the training you have works.

 

[opshin556]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

Good points by some, BS by others.

either way, its a problem that will likely never be solved.

just as an FYI, the suspect was standing still with arms extending when he was fired upon holding a cell phone, which police determined at the time was a firearm.

again, not passing judgement on whether he should have been engaged or not, just the manner of which the engagement happened.

As a former US SF soldier and professional PMC overseas and domestic, I have had more than my share of deadly encounters.

Non-combatants get killed, but in this incident it appears not only was the suspect in a large metro city, he was also on a freeway at the time with homes directly in line of sight during engagement.

Rules of engagement vary in combat, but police are not in combat,they are civilians.

summing it up, take (8) guys with badges who have entry level to medicore training, and place them in a high stress situation with suspect stating to dispatcher he had gun, then jumping out of car and taking, "shooting stance" and you get this.

its a training moment for sure.

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

I like this site specifically because the majority of the people here have a clue. This thread is becoming the exception. I agree with most of what Phylodog has stated but I want to break down a few things for those of you who "think" you know.

1. Qualification. It has been mentioned several times already and some of the blame is being pointed that way. Qualification is only a <span style="text-decoration: underline">test of the minimum standards </span>. Qualification needs to be obtainable by many different people in different conditions. Meaning it can be passed in low light, rain, snow, hot, cold, tired, hungry, new guy, old guy and so on.

2. Training. Training is the primary issue. Training needs to be repetitive, relevant and realistic. Considering LAPD has a lot of experience and I am familiar with their training curriculum I know it is relevant. Though a large PD like LAPD usually fails in the realistic and repetitive category. This is money and time and they only have so much of it and they do a pretty damn good job for what they have to work with.

3. Training vs Combat. Shooting at a paper/steel target in a controlled environment only trains you to a certain level. Force on Force/Sims training only trains you to a certain level. True combat readiness is a level that you only achieve by being in those situations and it takes more than once. Just because some jackass shot at/near you does not mean you are seasoned or combat tested. Every situation is different. This Training vs Combat is where we (mil, le, civi) shooters fail. You can train your ass off and it doesn't mean you will perform like a rockstar when the shit hits the fan. Depending on whose numbers you look at the hit percentage for LE flutters around 20% though that is an average. Ever situation or incident is different, some hit 100% of there shots some hit 10% neither one accurately reflects LE as a whole.

4. Armchair Opinions. Think before you speak. If you really think you would perform differently let me know. I will be more than happy to set up a few scenarios with Airsoft or Sims. I am sure in some scenarios you would shine and others you would flop. Hindsight can not be 20/20 after someone is thrust into a combative altercation, a Court of Law is not suppose to and neither should public opinion.

5. opshin556, original post. Your profile and posts indicate a high level of experience and a firearms instructor. You of all people should know better what actually happens and how training truly impacts a student. Either you have some beef with LAPD or you just don'y know any better. Either way you are wrong.

 

[11B101ABN]

Re: LAPD spray and pray

CB hit the nail on the head. I smell sour grapes. That's bullshit.