I know the barrel makes the biggest difference and pillars and a good trigger also help but really thats what makes the difference right? I wouldn't think the action makes much difference in the accuracy. What I'm getting at here is if you replace the barrel with a possible custom lilja and get a great trigger your savage mark II should outshoot way more expensive custom built rifles. I'm not planning on trying this as my TR shoots good enough at .47in at 100yds I just want to know for knowledge sake.
- Thread starter futurerider103
- Start date
Re: Question about precision shooting
It might, and they sometimes do. Most factory guns shoot 1-3 moa. It is very easy to build a rifle that shoots 2 moa. It is the last little bit that is the hard part.
Anything that is not right will hurt accuracy. It is almost impossible to say "adding/changing this part will improve your accuracy." You have to check everything and make sure it is perfect. It takes a lot of time and patience. I spent days working over my 455 and tweeking every little part to make them perfect. My barrel feels great, but will eventually get recrowned just to be absolutely sure it is perfect. That is the only thing left to do on it. It shoots like a laser and feels even better.
You need to start with a good solid receiver and barrel and work from there. IMO, CZ has the best action for the price.
I like to do all the work before even firing the rifle, because once you shoot it, parts start to wear. If you shoot it with little burrs or other imperfections, it will wear the wrong way.
Most factory barrels can be made to shoot better by hand lapping. I have hand lapped a few barrels and the results have been very impressive. Hand lapping is very labor intensive and takes some time to do it right. Ideally, the barrel will have a very constant taper to keep the bullet contact very even. The surface of the bullet is smeared backwards by the barrel. If the barrel was not tapered, the bullet would get loose in the barrel as it traveled down the bore.
I don't mean to run away typing. There are so many things that need to be perfect, it would take a couple days just to type it all out. I think you will get the idea.
It might, and they sometimes do. Most factory guns shoot 1-3 moa. It is very easy to build a rifle that shoots 2 moa. It is the last little bit that is the hard part.
Anything that is not right will hurt accuracy. It is almost impossible to say "adding/changing this part will improve your accuracy." You have to check everything and make sure it is perfect. It takes a lot of time and patience. I spent days working over my 455 and tweeking every little part to make them perfect. My barrel feels great, but will eventually get recrowned just to be absolutely sure it is perfect. That is the only thing left to do on it. It shoots like a laser and feels even better.
You need to start with a good solid receiver and barrel and work from there. IMO, CZ has the best action for the price.
I like to do all the work before even firing the rifle, because once you shoot it, parts start to wear. If you shoot it with little burrs or other imperfections, it will wear the wrong way.
Most factory barrels can be made to shoot better by hand lapping. I have hand lapped a few barrels and the results have been very impressive. Hand lapping is very labor intensive and takes some time to do it right. Ideally, the barrel will have a very constant taper to keep the bullet contact very even. The surface of the bullet is smeared backwards by the barrel. If the barrel was not tapered, the bullet would get loose in the barrel as it traveled down the bore.
I don't mean to run away typing. There are so many things that need to be perfect, it would take a couple days just to type it all out. I think you will get the idea.
Re: Question about precision shooting
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: futurerider103</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I'm getting at here is if you replace the barrel with a possible custom lilja and get a great trigger your savage mark II should outshoot way more expensive custom built rifles. </div></div>
Why would the mark II with a lilja outshoot a custom built 22 with a lilja?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: futurerider103</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I'm not planning on trying this as my TR shoots good enough at .47in at 100yds I just want to know for knowledge sake. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: futurerider103</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is 100yds. First 3 were right on the money last 2 killed it
</div></div>
I'm sorry to break this to you, but your TR does not shoot .47" at 100 yards. You don't just pick the best 3 out of 5 shots to determine what your gun is capable of.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: futurerider103</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I'm getting at here is if you replace the barrel with a possible custom lilja and get a great trigger your savage mark II should outshoot way more expensive custom built rifles. </div></div>
Why would the mark II with a lilja outshoot a custom built 22 with a lilja?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: futurerider103</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I'm not planning on trying this as my TR shoots good enough at .47in at 100yds I just want to know for knowledge sake. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: futurerider103</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is 100yds. First 3 were right on the money last 2 killed it
</div></div>
I'm sorry to break this to you, but your TR does not shoot .47" at 100 yards. You don't just pick the best 3 out of 5 shots to determine what your gun is capable of.
Re: Question about precision shooting
fine my gun shoots 8in groupings at 25yds and now I'm wanting to build a custom rifle based off the savage MK II platform. Since my groups aren't what are what the thread was created for lets get back on topic
fine my gun shoots 8in groupings at 25yds and now I'm wanting to build a custom rifle based off the savage MK II platform. Since my groups aren't what are what the thread was created for lets get back on topic
Re: Question about precision shooting
I see where you are coming from futurerider. I've had the same questions about centerfire rifles also.
For arguments sake say a rifle in stock configuration is shooting .7 groups, You/it are doing this consistently. So you are driving the rifle as best can be. Done all you can to the gun, bedded, trigger, bottom metal. Ammo, weight sorted, rim sorted, uniformed the bullet nose, to wring everything outta it.
.7 is it....
IF you had the barrel upgraded to a, Oh say a Lilja, and gained another .3. Next least expensive thing to do. So now we are down to .4 groups.
So now you've got cost of the gun, 450.00, bedding 125.00, trigger, 200.00 and a custom barrel 350.00. GT of $1125.00
I'm OK with investing this much in a .22 at this point. Some may think its berserk and say you could never sell a Savage .22 for what you have invested.
I don't sell my children......
But you think/know there MAY be another .2 on the table yet.
Next step, custom action. Lets just throw out a Surgeon. 1250.00. Have it fitted for another 350.00. 1600.00 for a custom action.
Now we have a gun shooting high .2 groups. Which is, from what I have read, downnright amazing!
2700.00 dollars later, untold hours of load selection, range time, which by the way I think is the best time there is!
Now have a Custom gun...
Worth it?? Maybe.
N
Is this where you were going futurerider103????
I see where you are coming from futurerider. I've had the same questions about centerfire rifles also.
For arguments sake say a rifle in stock configuration is shooting .7 groups, You/it are doing this consistently. So you are driving the rifle as best can be. Done all you can to the gun, bedded, trigger, bottom metal. Ammo, weight sorted, rim sorted, uniformed the bullet nose, to wring everything outta it.
.7 is it....
IF you had the barrel upgraded to a, Oh say a Lilja, and gained another .3. Next least expensive thing to do. So now we are down to .4 groups.
So now you've got cost of the gun, 450.00, bedding 125.00, trigger, 200.00 and a custom barrel 350.00. GT of $1125.00
I'm OK with investing this much in a .22 at this point. Some may think its berserk and say you could never sell a Savage .22 for what you have invested.
I don't sell my children......
But you think/know there MAY be another .2 on the table yet.
Next step, custom action. Lets just throw out a Surgeon. 1250.00. Have it fitted for another 350.00. 1600.00 for a custom action.
Now we have a gun shooting high .2 groups. Which is, from what I have read, downnright amazing!
2700.00 dollars later, untold hours of load selection, range time, which by the way I think is the best time there is!
Now have a Custom gun...
Worth it?? Maybe.
N
Is this where you were going futurerider103????
Re: Question about precision shooting
Yes that is where I was going for the most part. I wouldn't take it to the point of spring the ammo by weight or rim or even go to a custom action. Where I was getting at is people buying 40x's for $1100 THEN replacing the barrel, trigger ect....
Yes that is where I was going for the most part. I wouldn't take it to the point of spring the ammo by weight or rim or even go to a custom action. Where I was getting at is people buying 40x's for $1100 THEN replacing the barrel, trigger ect....
Re: Question about precision shooting
I had been pondering a stripped barreled Winny 52 from the CMP awhile ago. After talking to a few Hide members that are what I consider VERY knowledgeable on the 52 I pretty much gave up on it. Cost just went nuts!
Should I have perused it, the CMP deal, further? No. Pocket book had the last say here.
I had the opportunity over the weekend to shoot a 52D. Aperture sights, ringing a 1/2 scale IHMSA ram @ 200 meters, pretty much at will. Now keep in mind this is a "rental" from the SD State Shooting Assoc. Thousands of round thru it, most likely horrible maintenance. I'm a thinkin youd be hard pressed to shoot out a .22lr barrel. Ruin it from over cleaning maybe, but shoot it out. I just don't think so......
My 200.00 Henry with aperture sights will get that ram 7 outta 10 times. And with bulk Winchester ammo. I'm OK with that and having FUN!
I've heard and I just may have to put it to the test, that you can have two things done to a factory bbl 10-22 that will take it from say a minute gun to a 1/2 min. gun.
Recrown it and have it rechambered. Sounds suspicious but I don't know crap about 'em.
N
I had been pondering a stripped barreled Winny 52 from the CMP awhile ago. After talking to a few Hide members that are what I consider VERY knowledgeable on the 52 I pretty much gave up on it. Cost just went nuts!
Should I have perused it, the CMP deal, further? No. Pocket book had the last say here.
I had the opportunity over the weekend to shoot a 52D. Aperture sights, ringing a 1/2 scale IHMSA ram @ 200 meters, pretty much at will. Now keep in mind this is a "rental" from the SD State Shooting Assoc. Thousands of round thru it, most likely horrible maintenance. I'm a thinkin youd be hard pressed to shoot out a .22lr barrel. Ruin it from over cleaning maybe, but shoot it out. I just don't think so......
My 200.00 Henry with aperture sights will get that ram 7 outta 10 times. And with bulk Winchester ammo. I'm OK with that and having FUN!
I've heard and I just may have to put it to the test, that you can have two things done to a factory bbl 10-22 that will take it from say a minute gun to a 1/2 min. gun.
Recrown it and have it rechambered. Sounds suspicious but I don't know crap about 'em.
N
Re: Question about precision shooting
when it comes to the action and serious precision shooting, it (the action) is the foundation of what everything is built around.
it's sort of like having an unbalanced wheel on your car. it may not be bad of a shake at 25 mph, but at 55 mph the car shimmies all over. 55mph is more a performance speed than 25, and if all you drove is 25mph all day, you can live with that unbalanced wheel. however at 55 mph not so much - think of precision shooting as driving @ 55.
most of the custom actions (rim or centerfire) are "trued" - meaning they are the same thickness throughout the entire action, the action mounting bolts / holes are on absolute center, and other features.
the fit of the also trued bolt, bolt face, etc. is also more engaged with the action...the goal to to make (as close as possible) one piece thats a perfect fit leaving no gaps or spaces.
these all act together to start a platform that will not (or supposed to not) experience odd harmonics, movement, torque and other opposing forces that could transfer over to the barrel and other components acting like a tuning fork.
bedding an action reduces alot of it, however having that trued action from the start brings everything to a higher level.
in other words instead of having a bolt face that 1 time is 89.5 deg perpendicular to the chamber face, then maybe 91 degrees the next, a trued action and bolt keeps it 90 deg flush each time, all the time. or at least as close as it can get.
all of that may not seem much, but combined with the proper barrel, trigger group, stock, and other components adds up to a significant difference downrange.
it's that last consistant 1/2 to 1/8 group improvements that cost the most whether talking rimfires at 50 yards or centerfires at 500 yards. and part of reaching that goal are the custom or trued actions that play a role in it.
back to the speed and car analogy - i can't afford to go 55, i get impatient at 25, but i don't mind setting the cruise contol to 40 as gas prices are too much for me to do 55 all day.
when it comes to the action and serious precision shooting, it (the action) is the foundation of what everything is built around.
it's sort of like having an unbalanced wheel on your car. it may not be bad of a shake at 25 mph, but at 55 mph the car shimmies all over. 55mph is more a performance speed than 25, and if all you drove is 25mph all day, you can live with that unbalanced wheel. however at 55 mph not so much - think of precision shooting as driving @ 55.
most of the custom actions (rim or centerfire) are "trued" - meaning they are the same thickness throughout the entire action, the action mounting bolts / holes are on absolute center, and other features.
the fit of the also trued bolt, bolt face, etc. is also more engaged with the action...the goal to to make (as close as possible) one piece thats a perfect fit leaving no gaps or spaces.
these all act together to start a platform that will not (or supposed to not) experience odd harmonics, movement, torque and other opposing forces that could transfer over to the barrel and other components acting like a tuning fork.
bedding an action reduces alot of it, however having that trued action from the start brings everything to a higher level.
in other words instead of having a bolt face that 1 time is 89.5 deg perpendicular to the chamber face, then maybe 91 degrees the next, a trued action and bolt keeps it 90 deg flush each time, all the time. or at least as close as it can get.
all of that may not seem much, but combined with the proper barrel, trigger group, stock, and other components adds up to a significant difference downrange.
it's that last consistant 1/2 to 1/8 group improvements that cost the most whether talking rimfires at 50 yards or centerfires at 500 yards. and part of reaching that goal are the custom or trued actions that play a role in it.
back to the speed and car analogy - i can't afford to go 55, i get impatient at 25, but i don't mind setting the cruise contol to 40 as gas prices are too much for me to do 55 all day.
Re: Question about precision shooting
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ryanjay11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are really worried about the money, starting with an action that accepts prefit barrels would be a good idea. </div></div>
Annie 2013 action?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ryanjay11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are really worried about the money, starting with an action that accepts prefit barrels would be a good idea. </div></div>
Annie 2013 action?
Re: Question about precision shooting
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ryanjay11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are really worried about the money, starting with an action that accepts prefit barrels would be a good idea. </div></div>
Annie 2013 action? </div></div>
If you are dead set on a production action, then that is about as good as they get. There are several other factory actions that don't require gunsmithing to replace the barrels such as 10/22, 77/22, 455, Finnfire, Quad, 504.
In my opinion, it would be a waste of time to purchase a factory rifle if you intended to eventually customize the whole thing. You would just be let down when you were finished and wish that you had started with a custom action.
I shoot rimfire F-Class with a 64 MPR and I'm happy with it. If I had the money to burn on a full custom 22, I wouldn't. I would put it into another F-T/R rifle.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ryanjay11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are really worried about the money, starting with an action that accepts prefit barrels would be a good idea. </div></div>
Annie 2013 action? </div></div>
If you are dead set on a production action, then that is about as good as they get. There are several other factory actions that don't require gunsmithing to replace the barrels such as 10/22, 77/22, 455, Finnfire, Quad, 504.
In my opinion, it would be a waste of time to purchase a factory rifle if you intended to eventually customize the whole thing. You would just be let down when you were finished and wish that you had started with a custom action.
I shoot rimfire F-Class with a 64 MPR and I'm happy with it. If I had the money to burn on a full custom 22, I wouldn't. I would put it into another F-T/R rifle.
Re: Question about precision shooting
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">when it comes to the action and serious precision shooting, it (the action) is the foundation of what everything is built around.
it's sort of like having an unbalanced wheel on your car. it may not be bad of a shake at 25 mph, but at 55 mph the car shimmies all over. 55mph is more a performance speed than 25, and if all you drove is 25mph all day, you can live with that unbalanced wheel. however at 55 mph not so much - think of precision shooting as driving @ 55.
most of the custom actions (rim or centerfire) are "trued" - meaning they are the same thickness throughout the entire action, the action mounting bolts / holes are on absolute center, and other features.
the fit of the also trued bolt, bolt face, etc. is also more engaged with the action...the goal to to make (as close as possible) one piece thats a perfect fit leaving no gaps or spaces.
these all act together to start a platform that will not (or supposed to not) experience odd harmonics, movement, torque and other opposing forces that could transfer over to the barrel and other components acting like a tuning fork.
bedding an action reduces alot of it, however having that trued action from the start brings everything to a higher level.
in other words instead of having a bolt face that 1 time is 89.5 deg perpendicular to the chamber face, then maybe 91 degrees the next, a trued action and bolt keeps it 90 deg flush each time, all the time. or at least as close as it can get.
all of that may not seem much, but combined with the proper barrel, trigger group, stock, and other components adds up to a significant difference downrange.
it's that last consistant 1/2 to 1/8 group improvements that cost the most whether talking rimfires at 50 yards or centerfires at 500 yards. and part of reaching that goal are the custom or trued actions that play a role in it.
back to the speed and car analogy - i can't afford to go 55, i get impatient at 25, but i don't mind setting the cruise contol to 40 as gas prices are too much for me to do 55 all day. </div></div>
This is a great explanation and really clears up a lot. Thanks you always have wise things to say about serious subjects
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">when it comes to the action and serious precision shooting, it (the action) is the foundation of what everything is built around.
it's sort of like having an unbalanced wheel on your car. it may not be bad of a shake at 25 mph, but at 55 mph the car shimmies all over. 55mph is more a performance speed than 25, and if all you drove is 25mph all day, you can live with that unbalanced wheel. however at 55 mph not so much - think of precision shooting as driving @ 55.
most of the custom actions (rim or centerfire) are "trued" - meaning they are the same thickness throughout the entire action, the action mounting bolts / holes are on absolute center, and other features.
the fit of the also trued bolt, bolt face, etc. is also more engaged with the action...the goal to to make (as close as possible) one piece thats a perfect fit leaving no gaps or spaces.
these all act together to start a platform that will not (or supposed to not) experience odd harmonics, movement, torque and other opposing forces that could transfer over to the barrel and other components acting like a tuning fork.
bedding an action reduces alot of it, however having that trued action from the start brings everything to a higher level.
in other words instead of having a bolt face that 1 time is 89.5 deg perpendicular to the chamber face, then maybe 91 degrees the next, a trued action and bolt keeps it 90 deg flush each time, all the time. or at least as close as it can get.
all of that may not seem much, but combined with the proper barrel, trigger group, stock, and other components adds up to a significant difference downrange.
it's that last consistant 1/2 to 1/8 group improvements that cost the most whether talking rimfires at 50 yards or centerfires at 500 yards. and part of reaching that goal are the custom or trued actions that play a role in it.
back to the speed and car analogy - i can't afford to go 55, i get impatient at 25, but i don't mind setting the cruise contol to 40 as gas prices are too much for me to do 55 all day.
This is a great explanation and really clears up a lot. Thanks you always have wise things to say about serious subjects
Re: Question about precision shooting
As always Top, Great analogy, explanation!
N
As always Top, Great analogy, explanation!
N
