Why are AR15s so difficult to shoot for the average shooter?

[Roslyn]

Ok, I recognize that the answer is better fundamentals, full stop.

But this is what I see.

Go to any range, see a bunch of AR15s on the line, and for most of the shooters it is all they can do to put their rounds inside a 12" diameter target center at 100 yards. It doesn't seem to matter whether they are shooting scoped rifles, red dots, iron sights.

So, better fundamentals and move on to the next thread on the Hide.

But the same range will have a bunch of bolt rifle shooters and most of them are inside a 5" diameter target center. Many of these guys are shooting light rigs for hunting, using heavier calibers, and still manage to shoot inside 5". And many of them will put maybe 50 rounds down range all year, 45 rounds in practice and 5 to take down whatever they have a tag for.

Is the AR problem light weight? Wouldn't seem obvious given lighter recoil and many have muzzle brakes.
Heavy trigger? A 3 lb trigger isn't exactly heavy lifting but hand position and trigger pull weight might make a difference.
Hand position and style of grip? Again influencing trigger pull.
AR being fussy about the ammunition it likes to shoot?
Benches at most ranges put the shooter in an incorrect position with respect to recoil?

Am I just going to the one range where everyone is terrible at executing a proper shot?

There are millions of AR15s in the US, but not millions of good shooters of AR15s.

It doesn't make sense to me. Curious whether anyone has thoughts to suggest about this.

 

[Makinchips208]

For the ar crowd what I have seen is primarily Junk ammo.
Followed by cheap and inaccurate ARs.
Then that is shot from wobbly positions.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Shit gear
Zero training
No Experience
Low IQ

Its really that simple. Add in a platform with a ton of moving mass and slow lock time, with the vast majority of components and accessories not accuracy oriented. Its hard to NOT shoot well with a bolt gun. The gun damn near shoots itself.

People who actually shoot and have experience/training and run quality gear are a small minority. On top of that shooting is a perishable skill. Not everyone has the same eyesight/color rendering. You can only hit what you can see.

If you were a prolific shooter you would already know/understand this. But don't worry , show up to a match and I am sure the shooters will look at you the same way you look down on the general masses out to just have some fun.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Are the folks shooting the ARs really there to try their best to be slow and careful and be all about having perfectly aimed shots.

Or are they simply enjoying blasting at minute of man targets with their Freedom guns because well freedom sounds and feels cool?

Some folks go to the range simply to enjoy blasting and the AR15 works well for that.

 

[Sheldon N]

Bolt guns have shorter lock time and no reciprocating parts moving during the firing process, making them much more forgiving of poor shooters.

Bolt guns are more accurate generally, and likely are shooting higher quality ammo based on what the average shooter buys.

Bolt guns are much more likely to have a higher magnification scope making aiming more precise, versus an LVPO or Red Dot on an AR.

Bolt gun will likely have a better trigger with less creep.

Most commonly what you see is equally bad shooters with bolt guns and AR's. The bolt gun could shoot 1 1/2" groups but the shooter is hitting 5" groups. The AR with bad ammo could shoot 4" groups but the shooter is struggling to hit a pie plate.

 

[smoothy8500]

Benches at most ranges put the shooter in an incorrect position with respect to recoil?

If there weren't benches to sit on, then 99% of shooters in America wouldn't even be able to shoot at all......

 

[faylix]

Not all shooters are shooting for accuracy.

Sone AR shooters are plenty accurate.

You sound like an angry old man bitching about kids stepping on your lawn.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

You have to take special care with reloading as well. If you arent using cannelure and crimped rounds you need significantly more neck tension to prevent bullet setback as its rammed into the chamber.

1-2 thou of neck tension is not enough. I run closer to 3-4 thou when not shooting cannelure bullets.

These are 80.5 begers loaded to mag length without enough neck tension:

You also have issues with plastic tips breaking off because the barrel extension is not blended and polished and the feed angle is wrong on most AR's.

That is assuming you do everything else fundamentally right, you are still going to have a rough go.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

If there weren't benches to sit on, then 99% of shooters in America wouldn't even be able to shoot at all......

I would argue it would force them to shoot prone which would force better shooting fundamentals.

Benches should be shot modified prone to get popper NPA, not sitting down.

This all comes back to lack of experience and training. There was no one there to tell them how it was done. Even the military does not teach proper shooting form. You need someone to teach and show you. And then you need to be honest with yourself and force yourself to practice the fundamentals of marksmanship. Even very good shooters find themselves cheating and forgetting at times.

 

[matt33]

Everyone else has mentioned the big contributors. Keep in mind that the trigger lock time on a bolt-action rifle is somewhere around 2-3 milliseconds. For a mil-spec AR trigger that is heavier and gritty, the lock time can be as much as 15 milliseconds. So basically the rifle has more time to move and is more likely to move between the time the trigger is pressed and when the bullet leaves the muzzle.

Combine that with junk ammo, junk barrels, junk optics with little or no magnification, shooters who don't really understand or apply the fundamentals of marksmanship, and the results are as the OP described.

 

[unclemoak]

I think it's a combination of factors. Cost and accessibility being one of them. A bargain bin AR can be had for what, like $400-500? That along with cheap plinking ammo and poor fundamentals, and I can easily see where the occasional shooting shoots about a dinner plate sized group at 100 yards.

 

[simonp]

Most of it has been covered Id add that a lot of folks just have low expectations of the accuracy of the gas gun and are totally happy with their 3-5" groups at 100, Ive seen folks happy and celebrate because they are on paper! No I am not talking about a young child shooting for the first time, where that is acceptable, I am talking about an adult showing up to the range with multiple guns. Some people just dont have the proper expectation, some lack the training and the desire to train and improve.

I tend to tune out 95% of the people at the range at this point and just focus on myself and what I am doing.

 

[Taylorbok]

The Average person at most ranges I've been to dgaf about group size. If it's on the paper that's all that matters.

 

[SilentStalkr]

No idea what you are talking about. I can shoot 1/4MOA all day long, everyday, with a red dot, offhand at 100-200yds, with a bushmaster.

Oh and dead is dead. Most people don’t use ARs to shoot tiny groups. People that actually have skill and use them are more concerned with getting hits on man sized targets. That’s all that’s necessary. Sure the tighter groups you can shoot in theory the better you will be overall but if you can hit a man sized target at Reg engagement distances then that’s really all that matters for most folks. If I got to be precise, not saying an AR can’t be, but if it’s that important then an AR likely isn’t gonna be my first pic of tool for the job.

 

[Jgault]

Just as a few said buy a cheap gun, put cheap ammo through it the results are what they are. Concerning actually operating the platform as far as semi automatics it’s probably slightly more difficult than a ak, but still something almost anyone can understand in a few minutes. Any problem I’ve seen in person it was because the gun was out of spec, the gas was wrong or the gas block not installed correctly, or they put a temu optic and or mount on.

 

[68ss396]

Go to the shittiest free public range next to where you live. Thats where you will see some crazy stuff.

I usually bring all my tools, scope levels, bore sight in my shooting bag so if someone is really struggling I will help them out.

So many times Ive found that their is loose scope mountings, had a scope mounted 90 degrees of rotation off. He couldnt figure out why L-R adjustments were going up and down.

Lots of it is shit ammo and very shitty guns.

People trying to sight in a gun and they dont have a bag to set it on.

Many people have no one to show them how to properly do it. Ive taught a few people how to reload and set up their guns properly. If they are really interested Ill invite them out to a private 1k range and they always get a kick out of that.

 

[DocRDS]

They aren't. AR is a very accurate platform. Unless you are in the sub 1/2 MOA benchrest level precision, most people can't outshoot their gear.

Has nothing to do with lock time or ammo or anything equipment related. (At that level)

Its all about fundamentals at that accuracy/precision. Has nothing to do with the rifle. Hand them the best target rifle and they'll still shoot a 5 inch group.

Shit ammo and stock AR I can hold 1-2 inches with a red dot (why yes it is a bushmaster!). Before my eyes went bad, i could do it with irons. Ammo can take that under 1 inch. Barrel can shrink that to maybe 1/2 inch. My shitty ass AK holds 2 inches with shitty wing sights and steel case ammo and a trigger weight around 47 lbs (ok maybe I exaggerate)

Anything over 2 inches?

You suck. (Step 1: Recognize you suck. Step 2. Fix it)

ARs (highly modifed) are used for high power long range. It ain't the gun.

I get pissed when I can't hold sub MOA on my bolt and have to refocus my technique. If I shot 5" I'd fucking quit. Hell I got pissed when my M-14 shot 2" @ 100 with open sights and I am fucking blind. (Ammo helped).

The shit I have seen at the public range would make your blood boil. And that's the ROs, let alone the patrons.

Yes technically Ammo and Gear make a difference. If you can't hit a 3 inch plate at 100 yards, its not lock time or reloads or shitty gear.

ITS YOU.