New Hornady 195 GR BTHP. Need A-MAX same weight.

[Helmet]

I see that Hornady has a new 195 GR bthp. They claim that it has a G1 of .550. Since they claim the 178 GR bthp has a G1 of .530 I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they just added a little length to the bearing surface of the 178 GR bthp ( about 10% more weight without even a 5% increase in BC. What a dud!). Kinda like the difference between the 168 GR a-max and the 178 GR a-max, except worse. The small gain in BC is not really worth the loss of speed IMO. Now the 208 GR a-max is a totally different bullet. Much more efficient than the other a-max bullets in 30 cal. I would love to see a new a-max in the 195 GR range like the bthp. But instead of just adding length to the bearing surface of the 178 GR a-max, remove some of the length from the bearing surface of the 208 GR a-max.

 

[JGorski]

Re: New Hornady 195 GR BTHP. Need A-MAX same weight.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmchairElite</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I see that Hornady has a new 195 GR bthp. They claim that it has a G1 of .550. Since they claim the 178 GR bthp has a G1 of .530 I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they just added a little length to the bearing surface of the 178 GR bthp ( about 10% more weight without even a 5% increase in BC. What a dud!). Kinda like the difference between the 168 GR a-max and the 178 GR a-max, except worse. The small gain in BC is not really worth the loss of speed IMO. Now the 208 GR a-max is a totally different bullet. Much more efficient than the other a-max bullets in 30 cal. I would love to see a new a-max in the 195 GR range like the bthp. But instead of just adding length to the bearing surface of the 178 GR a-max, remove some of the length from the bearing surface of the 208 GR a-max. </div></div>
Why not call them and tell them that, see what they have to say, 1-800-338-3220

 

[Helmet]

Re: New Hornady 195 GR BTHP. Need A-MAX same weight.

That honestly never even occurred to me. Maybe I will when I get a chance. See how receptive they are to customers ideas. Those 208s are just a bit too heavy for my 308. But I really want a long bullet with a high BC for my 1/10 twist. What do you think?

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Re: New Hornady 195 GR BTHP. Need A-MAX same weight.

ArmchairElite,

What do you mean by "those 208AMAX are just a bit too heavy for my 308"?

If you have a 1:10 or 1:11 twist barrel, you can definetly stabilize that bullet. Some have even reported success with 1:12 barrels, but they had 24" long tubes.

 

[Helmet]

Re: New Hornady 195 GR BTHP. Need A-MAX same weight.

Sure. I know I can stabilize them. I have a 1/10 twist. My point is that they are a little to heavy for the 308 in terms of velocity. I know that they are still worth using in the 308 as long as you can get them over 2400fps which is very realistic. But in 308 it would be much more efficient to have a round that had the same o-give and boat tail as the 208 a-max, but less bearing surface. Since we know that adding weight to the bearing surface adds to the BC the same percentage having a longer bearing surface isn't as helpful as having a longer o-give. For instance, Bryan Litz has the 178 gr bthp at .502 G1. Hornady has their new 195 gr bthp at .550 G1. 17 gr heavier is about 10%. Difference between .502 and .550 is about 10%. So if you take a 178 gr bthp and add 10% more weight but do not really change the shape, only adding it to the bearing surface you will have an increase of 10% in BC. Is that worth the extra 17 gr you now have to accelerate. No. But if you used those 17 gr to make a longer more aerodynamic nose then it would be a different story. If you had an a-max bullet with the same nose and boat tail as the 208 a-max, but 18 gr less in the bearing surface, you would have a 190 gr a-max with over 90% of the BC of the 208 a-max. This would be a better 308 round. In fact it would be a spectacular 308 round. I have written an e-mail to Hornady about this. I'll have to wait to see what they say about it.

 

[2ndPanzer]

Re: New Hornady 195 GR BTHP. Need A-MAX same weight.

Imagine a bullet that you can load them like a 175, can fit them in an AI Mag and still get 2700 fom a 24 in 5R, can load them long and stout and get 2675 from a 20 in gun. .560 BC. Seating depth friendly. Transonic stabil. Hornady could build a bullet like that, but Berger already did. 185 LR BTHP,

 

[Helmet]

Re: New Hornady 195 GR BTHP. Need A-MAX same weight.

LOL...But they didn't build one I could afford to use.

I have had very good success with Berger, but at over 50% more money I was looking for a better long turn solution. Besides, Bryan Litz has the G7 of that bullet listed at .283. He has the G7 of the 208 a-max listed at .324. If you removed 18 gr from the bearing surface of the 208 a-max that would be just over 11.5%. .324-11.5% = G7 of about .287. But under $30 a box. You don't think Hornady would sell alot of those?

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Re: New Hornady 195 GR BTHP. Need A-MAX same weight.

Armchair,

Just shoot the 208s. Get over the fact that the velocity is "slow"...i had the same feeling as you did, but after i compared its wind resistance (2400fps)to say 155s at 3200fps (same) or wind resistance of 175s at 2900fps (same), i realized that the awesomeness of this bullet in a 308 is not flat-shooting, but wind resistance.

This bullet is also a better bet than the Berger 185s...and is 50% cheaper to boot.

If you shoot any type of known distance comps, (F-class, highpower, etc), you understand that distance-schmistance. WInd reading or better yet, wind-cheating is the name of the game.

The 225gr Hornady HPBT is even better than the 208 AMAX....710BC vs .648BC.

Just think "wind-resistance" for the heavy 308s...and you'll be fine.

 

[Helmet]

Re: New Hornady 195 GR BTHP. Need A-MAX same weight.

I agree with you about the 208. It's why I bought some. Really it's almost even with the 185 berger. Just trading speed for BC almost evenly. Since the cost is clearly not even the 208 is the one I intend to get the range time with. I would still like to see an a-max in a 190 gr(ish) version.
Have you used Varget for the 208s? If so, what is your load?

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Re: New Hornady 195 GR BTHP. Need A-MAX same weight.

Armchair,

You are ahead of me. I'm waiting for my order of 208s to come in...never shot them...i'm just being an...armchair-quaterback.

If you run the numbers on JBM using the Litz BC for each bullet, you'll find that the 208AMAX at 2600fps has the same wind drift as the 185s at 2850fps...they are not close ballistically or in price.

The wildcard will always be "Does it shoot accurately enough in your rifle?"

I will be shooting the 208AMAX over 2000MR in part to get the the best velocity possible ( I am working with a 20" 308 barrel).

I will be sure to post a range report when i finally get to shoot them.

Best

 

[JGorski]

Re: New Hornady 195 GR BTHP. Need A-MAX same weight.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmchairElite</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with you about the 208. It's why I bought some. Really it's almost even with the 185 berger. Just trading speed for BC almost evenly. Since the cost is clearly not even the 208 is the one I intend to get the range time with. I would still like to see an a-max in a 190 gr(ish) version.
Have you used Varget for the 208s? If so, what is your load? </div></div>
There's only one powder id use for the 208s, 2000MR. Id probably consult with Ben at Alliant powder as where to start your workup loads. Though id say around 45grs might be the max. fwiw, I like the 178HPBT, Im getting about 2730fps in my loads and will be using that bullet for the 600yd BR comp. coming up this summer.

 

[Helmet]

Re: New Hornady 195 GR BTHP. Need A-MAX same weight.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tx_Flyboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Armchair,

You are ahead of me. I'm waiting for my order of 208s to come in...never shot them...i'm just being an...armchair-quaterback.

If you run the numbers on JBM using the Litz BC for each bullet, you'll find that the 208AMAX at 2600fps has the same wind drift as the 185s at 2850fps...they are not close ballistically or in price.

The wildcard will always be "Does it shoot accurately enough in your rifle?"

I will be shooting the 208AMAX over 2000MR in part to get the the best velocity possible ( I am working with a 20" 308 barrel).

I will be sure to post a range report when i finally get to shoot them.

Best </div></div>LOL...Problem is I don't think I can get them to 2600fps. I have 10 lbs of Varget so that's what I'm using. I would need either RL-17 or maybe 2000MR or CFE 223 to reach those speeds. Not alot of info on those last 2 so I'll be intereted to see how that goes. I'm looking at maybe 42 gr of Varget trying to get close to 2450 fps.

 

[Helmet]

Re: New Hornady 195 GR BTHP. Need A-MAX same weight.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JGorski</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmchairElite</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with you about the 208. It's why I bought some. Really it's almost even with the 185 berger. Just trading speed for BC almost evenly. Since the cost is clearly not even the 208 is the one I intend to get the range time with. I would still like to see an a-max in a 190 gr(ish) version.
Have you used Varget for the 208s? If so, what is your load? </div></div>
There's only one powder id use for the 208s, 2000MR. Id probably consult with Ben at Alliant powder as where to start your workup loads. Though id say around 45grs might be the max. fwiw, I like the 178HPBT, Im getting about 2730fps in my loads and will be using that bullet for the 600yd BR comp. coming up this summer. </div></div>The 178 bthp is another one that I'm working on. So far it's working good with 45 gr of Varget. I'm testing it against the 178 a-max right now for accuracy with the same load. It is a much better designed bullet though for BC. Problem is the 178 a-max is so accurate. This why I can't get anything done. I keep screwing around with different bullets.

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Re: New Hornady 195 GR BTHP. Need A-MAX same weight.

Armchair,

What is your barrel lenght? I have a 20" barrel on my AR, and I expect to get about 2500fps +/- 20fps. Alliant indicates 2580 or so with 200 grain bullets and a 24" barrel.

The advantage of 2000MR over Varget is:

1. Higher velocity (50-80fps)at the same pressure level.
2. Cleaner burning.
3. Meters like water...Varget meters like toothpicks.
4. Varget exhibits a lot of lot-to lot inconsistency.

You should certainly try to make it work with the powder at hand...but if you are not getting the results you want, then i recommend you try 2000MR or CFE223.

Lastly, please be aware that this load will have a higher felt recoil than shooting 155s or 178s. I have an AR. Recoil is a non-issue.

Best

 

[JGorski]

Re: New Hornady 195 GR BTHP. Need A-MAX same weight.

I dont believe youre going to get the velocity with Varget as youd get with 2000MR, but you can try to blow up your rifle, haha

 

[JGorski]

Re: New Hornady 195 GR BTHP. Need A-MAX same weight.

BTW, what kind of shooting will you be doing? 600-1000yd?? Oh, I use 47.5grs 2000MR with the 178HPBT. Some of my groups at 200, 300yds. Flyers, probably me.

 

[Helmet]

Re: New Hornady 195 GR BTHP. Need A-MAX same weight.

24" barrel. I have been reading about it. Unfortunately I discovered 2000MR while an 8lb jug o Varget was in the mail(bad timing). I don't mind the metering as I load bullets really slow nitpicky style. I do mind lack of performance though

.

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Re: New Hornady 195 GR BTHP. Need A-MAX same weight.

with a 24" barrel, you should see close to 2500fps or so...once you factor in where teh accuracy node is.

In the 2000MR thread, there was a guy shooting a 24" savage 308 and getting 2615fps with 2000MR.

Good Luck. You can always post your powder for sale...there are plenty of ppl that havent seen the light yet LOL.

 

[Helmet]

Re: New Hornady 195 GR BTHP. Need A-MAX same weight.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JGorski</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW, what kind of shooting will you be doing? 600-1000yd?? Oh, I use 47.5grs 2000MR with the 178HPBT. Some of my groups at 200, 300yds. Flyers, probably me.

</div></div>Eventually I want to shoot 1000 yards. I'm trying to decide on the right bullet so I can concentrate on getting good with one and move to further distances with it. My experience judging wind is minimal and I would like to become accustom to one load to lessen the variables. Ultimately I'm leaning towards 178 bthp & 208 a-max. I have heard about the flyers with 2000MR from others. Although those still look like good groups to me at that distance.

 

[Helmet]

Re: New Hornady 195 GR BTHP. Need A-MAX same weight.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tx_Flyboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">with a 24" barrel, you should see close to 2500fps or so...once you factor in where teh accuracy node is.

In the 2000MR thread, there was a guy shooting a 24" savage 308 and getting 2615fps with 2000MR.

Good Luck. You can always post your powder for sale...there are plenty of ppl that havent seen the light yet LOL. </div></div>If I just can't stand it any longer I'll get some of that too. I really like Varget though. Guess I'll just have to try it and see what happens.

 

[2ndPanzer]

Re: New Hornady 195 GR BTHP. Need A-MAX same weight.

I shot the 208 with re17 with a 24 in factory 5R with excellent results, right at 2600 fps. I couldn't get them to shoot like that from the mag though. The recoil is different, not bad, but you know it's there. About like shooting a stiff 190 load. 2000mr should work quite well with it.

I built a "NM" type AR10 for NRA service rifle mid and long range prone shooting. It shoots the 190's very well, about 2550 fps ( 20 in Krieger 1-11)
I tried the Berger 185 loaded long at 2.95 oal, and used RE15 surplus powder. I was told by guys using them to start with loads that worked well with a 175 and go from there. I had 3 good known loads with that powder the best was 44.3. Its stout, but was the best. I get 2675 fps. Out of curiosity I tried some left overs in the bolt gun. It was the most accurate load I have ever shot in it. So I started working on a version that would fit in an AI mag. At that length 44.3 was too close to too hot, so I went to 43.7, and it is just a little more accurate than the 175's and just at 2700 fps. A better powder might get me some more speed. FWIW the AMU load is 2.95 oal 45.0 grains of Varget

As far as cost I recently found them on sale for $37 a box so I got 5. Should last me awhile in the AR 10, I'll most likely keep shooting the 175's in the bolt gun. Now if Hornady can come trough on similar bullet as you proposed in the 185-195 range at thier normal price point and it shot good I would buy thousands of them and get the TRG 42 win mag involved. I am going to try the 185's in it soon. Predicted 3100 fps. If its accurate I'll have to sell some organs to buy enough bergers to feed 3... So a hornady option would be tremendous.

 

[Helmet]

Re: New Hornady 195 GR BTHP. Need A-MAX same weight.

Next time you might want to try this place. Shipping is expensive, but it's still alot cheaper overall.
http://www.fedtacticaldirect.com/Hornady-30-Cal-308-208gr-A-Max-100-30732_p_24604.html#

Unfortunately I was developing a very self destructive Berger 190 VLD habit. I had to quit cold turkey and go to Hornady.
I was tempted to try the RL-17 but I hear it's very temperature sensitive.
If I was shooting a win mag I think the 208s would be great. Only thing better are the JLK 210s. They are expensive though, and you have to order those from swampy in advance, but Bryan Litz confirmed that those 210s are the real deal. http://www.swampworks.com/jlk/
No reply from Hornady yet. I really don't know what to expect.

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Re: New Hornady 195 GR BTHP. Need A-MAX same weight.

2nd Panzer,

I also have a DPMS LR-308 with a 20" barrel...all i need is a four rail handguard & A2 stock to be NRA Service rifle legal.

My accurate load is 178AMAX+WLR primer+49.3gr 2000MR+LC brass...this is right at 2700fps or higher (depending on the ballistic software you believe)...this has shot as tight as 0.25" group with 5-shots @ 100yards.

I wanna only shoot one load through this rifle...2000MR+208AMAX. I want to do this with Winchester brass (more case capacity & potentially more speed to be gained).

Have you tried 208AMAX with 2000MR in your AR-10? If not, what have you tried and what velocity are you getting?

How was the recoil in the AR-10 compared to the 175s?