Sort of an odd, newb type question, but if you were going to describe new, average, and experienced shooters by MOA, what would the MOA's be. Just reading this site in the different forums, one is led to believe that if you aren't a sub-MOA shooter at every distance known to man, you should be embarrassed. I must admit that I haven't really seen that attitude here in the F T/R forum, but I have in the other various forums, and quite often. So, depending on experience of levels classified as beginner, average, and experience, what MOA should one be expected to shoot at distances of 300, 500, 800, 900, and 1000yards? Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question but it would be nice to get different peoples perspective.
F T/R Competition How good is someone according to MOA?...
- Thread starter BigtimeAub
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Re: How good is someone according to MOA?...
Believe about 25% of what you read. When I started doing load workup I discovered that I have the slowest barrels in history, yea right.
If you believe the hype here a GAP rifle really doesn't need a scope, it just automatically hits the targets.
The point is that there is a bunch of BS on the internet.
Part of what you are seeing in F class shooters are guys who really do shoot at 600 to 1000 on a regular basis and don't just talk about the time they did it once. In matches you don't get Mulligans, once you go for record every shot counts so guys shooting competitive shooters understand what it is to try to put 20 shots on a 1MOA 10 ring and get their ass beat by the wind. The 10-ring on a 1000yd F class target is 10 inches. To date since the target was adopted five or more years ago not one person has shot clean for 20 shots at 1000 yds. There have been some 199's and a bunch of Xs but to date not one person has cleaned it.
At 600 yards, that's another story. With some practice you should be able to come pretty close with good wind conditions. I don't shoot at 600 often, there are people who are way better than me, but my best practice for 15 at 600 I dropped 4 points. My best match for 20 I dropped 6. (That's a 6 inch 10-ring)
With a good rifle and good loads, with a pod, you should be able to hold .5MOA at 100 and 200 yards. At 200 you begin to see wind effects. When you figure that 5 MPH will push a 175 SMK 1.5 inches at 200 that can open your groups up if you don't pay attention.
Your reloads and your form should keep you inside of 1MOA and really at about .5 to .75 vertical at any range, what you do with the wind is another story.
I am definitely not discounting the difficulty of other competitive shooting disciplines. Shooting things like Service Rifle Leg matches don't get sighters, the tactical comps guys need to put first shot on target, we don't have to. We usually get unlimited sighters. Worst case in High Power shooting is a Palma 800/900/1000 match you get unlimited at 800 and 2 at 900/1000. I'll bet you 2/3 of the guys on the line don't know DA from a Ducks Ass, but they don't have too.
Believe about 25% of what you read. When I started doing load workup I discovered that I have the slowest barrels in history, yea right.
If you believe the hype here a GAP rifle really doesn't need a scope, it just automatically hits the targets.
The point is that there is a bunch of BS on the internet.
Part of what you are seeing in F class shooters are guys who really do shoot at 600 to 1000 on a regular basis and don't just talk about the time they did it once. In matches you don't get Mulligans, once you go for record every shot counts so guys shooting competitive shooters understand what it is to try to put 20 shots on a 1MOA 10 ring and get their ass beat by the wind. The 10-ring on a 1000yd F class target is 10 inches. To date since the target was adopted five or more years ago not one person has shot clean for 20 shots at 1000 yds. There have been some 199's and a bunch of Xs but to date not one person has cleaned it.
At 600 yards, that's another story. With some practice you should be able to come pretty close with good wind conditions. I don't shoot at 600 often, there are people who are way better than me, but my best practice for 15 at 600 I dropped 4 points. My best match for 20 I dropped 6. (That's a 6 inch 10-ring)
With a good rifle and good loads, with a pod, you should be able to hold .5MOA at 100 and 200 yards. At 200 you begin to see wind effects. When you figure that 5 MPH will push a 175 SMK 1.5 inches at 200 that can open your groups up if you don't pay attention.
Your reloads and your form should keep you inside of 1MOA and really at about .5 to .75 vertical at any range, what you do with the wind is another story.
I am definitely not discounting the difficulty of other competitive shooting disciplines. Shooting things like Service Rifle Leg matches don't get sighters, the tactical comps guys need to put first shot on target, we don't have to. We usually get unlimited sighters. Worst case in High Power shooting is a Palma 800/900/1000 match you get unlimited at 800 and 2 at 900/1000. I'll bet you 2/3 of the guys on the line don't know DA from a Ducks Ass, but they don't have too.
Re: How good is someone according to MOA?...
I consider myself experienced. Flawed lately, but still experienced.
Shooting LR F Class, a ten point hit falls within a 1MOA diameter. For Palma shooters, that's 2MOA. Judging by scores, a highly competitive shooter gets at least 95% of their hits into that ten-ring.
Wind is an issue, but the highly competitive shooter makes their bones by reducing/eliminating its consequences. Most people can make a 10 in a dead calm. Doing it with a gusting, fishtailing wind separates a lot of shooters into a lot of bins.
Beginners, 75%. Middle pack, 85-90%.
Greg
I consider myself experienced. Flawed lately, but still experienced.
Shooting LR F Class, a ten point hit falls within a 1MOA diameter. For Palma shooters, that's 2MOA. Judging by scores, a highly competitive shooter gets at least 95% of their hits into that ten-ring.
Wind is an issue, but the highly competitive shooter makes their bones by reducing/eliminating its consequences. Most people can make a 10 in a dead calm. Doing it with a gusting, fishtailing wind separates a lot of shooters into a lot of bins.
Beginners, 75%. Middle pack, 85-90%.
Greg
Re: How good is someone according to MOA?...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Beginners, 75%. Middle pack, 85-90%.
Greg </div></div>
It may be a bit harder than that at 1000 yards for F-TR. A consistent 90% 10-ring hit rate gets you a 198, that's very high and uncommon. There was Darrell responded to a question I asked in the Shooting Jacket thread and confirmed something I was pretty sure of, there are guys on the USF-TR team who are holding Expert NRA classifications. In TR that's 94.00 to 96.49 for 10 or 188-193 average per 20 shot string. That is dropping 7 to 12 points a match. Assuming only 9s that's a 40% to 65% 10-ring hit rate. (the number is higher because 8s do slip in)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Beginners, 75%. Middle pack, 85-90%.
Greg </div></div>
It may be a bit harder than that at 1000 yards for F-TR. A consistent 90% 10-ring hit rate gets you a 198, that's very high and uncommon. There was Darrell responded to a question I asked in the Shooting Jacket thread and confirmed something I was pretty sure of, there are guys on the USF-TR team who are holding Expert NRA classifications. In TR that's 94.00 to 96.49 for 10 or 188-193 average per 20 shot string. That is dropping 7 to 12 points a match. Assuming only 9s that's a 40% to 65% 10-ring hit rate. (the number is higher because 8s do slip in)
Re: How good is someone according to MOA?...
In practice when load testing, I don't worry about "MOA". I look at elevation. With my 185BT load at 965 yards, I could maintain 4-4.5" elevation on a very calm day. When testing other loads, that is my benchmark. In essence, I believe the closer you are to half MOA elevation, the better. Honestly, that's where I stop working on a load and just go with it.
In practice when load testing, I don't worry about "MOA". I look at elevation. With my 185BT load at 965 yards, I could maintain 4-4.5" elevation on a very calm day. When testing other loads, that is my benchmark. In essence, I believe the closer you are to half MOA elevation, the better. Honestly, that's where I stop working on a load and just go with it.
Re: How good is someone according to MOA?...
I have to ask out of ignorance, are the targets measured as a radius or a diameter.
For instance the 10 ring on a 600 yd fclass target is said to be 6 inches. Is that the radius from the point of aim, or the diameter of the circle around the point of aim?
I have to ask out of ignorance, are the targets measured as a radius or a diameter.
For instance the 10 ring on a 600 yd fclass target is said to be 6 inches. Is that the radius from the point of aim, or the diameter of the circle around the point of aim?
Re: How good is someone according to MOA?...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sean Hagerty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have to ask out of ignorance, are the targets measured as a radius or a diameter.
For instance the 10 ring on a 600 yd fclass target is said to be 6 inches. Is that the radius from the point of aim, or the diameter of the circle around the point of aim? </div></div>
Diameter
The 10-ring on F class targets is commonly referred to as 1 MOA, the X-ring is half that, and each scoring ring outside of it adds 1MOA though if you want to get into the whole 1 MOA =1.047 inches calc it is slightly less.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sean Hagerty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have to ask out of ignorance, are the targets measured as a radius or a diameter.
For instance the 10 ring on a 600 yd fclass target is said to be 6 inches. Is that the radius from the point of aim, or the diameter of the circle around the point of aim? </div></div>
Diameter
The 10-ring on F class targets is commonly referred to as 1 MOA, the X-ring is half that, and each scoring ring outside of it adds 1MOA though if you want to get into the whole 1 MOA =1.047 inches calc it is slightly less.
Re: How good is someone according to MOA?...
The answer to your question depends a lot on the location (ie. the shooting conditions) of the match. For example, couple Sundays ago, I shot a 3 x 600 match at Camp Pendleton, which typically has the wind coming from NE in the early match, S or SW in the 2nd, and SW much stronger in the 3rd. We were fortunate to have only about 1 mph wind for match 1, but true to form the wind came up fishtailing at 10-12 mph from 6:00 to 8:30 for the second and slightly more consistent at 10-12 from SW in the third. My scores were 200-11X (my first ever "clean" by the way), 184-4X, and 195-10X. I'm sure you can guess from my scores where the fishtailing winds were predominant.
Same thing yesterday in a 3 x 1000 match yesterday at Camp Pendleton, although the wind directions were reversed because the 1000 yd range goes N to S, which is opposite of the 600 yd range. At the 1000 yd match, which was only my second competition at that distance, I shot 194-7X, 193-1X, and 182-2X. On my 3rd round, the wind shifted almost 180 degrees for my last 3 shots, which were 7s. Thus the 182-2X. I saw the change and held off more for each shot, but it wasn't nearly enough. In any event, both of those scores were good enough to place first in F-T/R, where there were a small number of shooters as they are local matches. I even managed to score higher than several F-Open guys, for the same reason. However, at the regional or national level, I would regularly have my ass handed to me. The main point is that it's all relative.
Bottom line is that you can look around to see what others are scoring at competitions in different locations, but unless you're familiar with that particular range and the normal conditions, the numbers may not mean very much. When you see top national/international shooters dropping 10-15 points in a match, you can be pretty sure the conditions were challenging.
So how does that relate to MOA? As mentioned above by XTR, 90% in the 10-ring would get you a 198. At 1000 yd that would be phenomenal shooting if there was significant wind. At 300-600 yd, that would be pretty mediocre for a top level shooter and would doubtfully put them in the money. In general, if you can't hold MOA (more probably 0.5 MOA) under good conditions out to 600 yd, placing at or near the top will be a rare event. Under more adverse conditions and/or at longer range, the same level of precision might easily win the match, although the shooter that can barely hold MOA out to 600 yd under good conditions probably would shoot more like 2 - 3 MOA under adverse conditions, obviously getting worse as the range increased. Overall, I view it kind of like the US Open golf tournament. Every year, lots of the pros complain that the rough is way too long and the course is very difficult. Well, the way I see it is that a) it's the same for everyone, and b) if you don't like shooting out of the rough, keep your ball in the fairway. By analogy, the best wind readers will generally have the best opportunity to place in the top echelons, regardless of the final scores or what MOA those scores translate to.
The answer to your question depends a lot on the location (ie. the shooting conditions) of the match. For example, couple Sundays ago, I shot a 3 x 600 match at Camp Pendleton, which typically has the wind coming from NE in the early match, S or SW in the 2nd, and SW much stronger in the 3rd. We were fortunate to have only about 1 mph wind for match 1, but true to form the wind came up fishtailing at 10-12 mph from 6:00 to 8:30 for the second and slightly more consistent at 10-12 from SW in the third. My scores were 200-11X (my first ever "clean" by the way), 184-4X, and 195-10X. I'm sure you can guess from my scores where the fishtailing winds were predominant.
Same thing yesterday in a 3 x 1000 match yesterday at Camp Pendleton, although the wind directions were reversed because the 1000 yd range goes N to S, which is opposite of the 600 yd range. At the 1000 yd match, which was only my second competition at that distance, I shot 194-7X, 193-1X, and 182-2X. On my 3rd round, the wind shifted almost 180 degrees for my last 3 shots, which were 7s. Thus the 182-2X. I saw the change and held off more for each shot, but it wasn't nearly enough. In any event, both of those scores were good enough to place first in F-T/R, where there were a small number of shooters as they are local matches. I even managed to score higher than several F-Open guys, for the same reason. However, at the regional or national level, I would regularly have my ass handed to me. The main point is that it's all relative.
Bottom line is that you can look around to see what others are scoring at competitions in different locations, but unless you're familiar with that particular range and the normal conditions, the numbers may not mean very much. When you see top national/international shooters dropping 10-15 points in a match, you can be pretty sure the conditions were challenging.
So how does that relate to MOA? As mentioned above by XTR, 90% in the 10-ring would get you a 198. At 1000 yd that would be phenomenal shooting if there was significant wind. At 300-600 yd, that would be pretty mediocre for a top level shooter and would doubtfully put them in the money. In general, if you can't hold MOA (more probably 0.5 MOA) under good conditions out to 600 yd, placing at or near the top will be a rare event. Under more adverse conditions and/or at longer range, the same level of precision might easily win the match, although the shooter that can barely hold MOA out to 600 yd under good conditions probably would shoot more like 2 - 3 MOA under adverse conditions, obviously getting worse as the range increased. Overall, I view it kind of like the US Open golf tournament. Every year, lots of the pros complain that the rough is way too long and the course is very difficult. Well, the way I see it is that a) it's the same for everyone, and b) if you don't like shooting out of the rough, keep your ball in the fairway. By analogy, the best wind readers will generally have the best opportunity to place in the top echelons, regardless of the final scores or what MOA those scores translate to.
Re: How good is someone according to MOA?...
In the final analysis...you could have a 2" elevation group at 1000 and the wind could make you look like an IDIOT!!
In the final analysis...you could have a 2" elevation group at 1000 and the wind could make you look like an IDIOT!!
Re: How good is someone according to MOA?...
True on the wind, but if you are having elevation issues, it can be dead calm or blowing and you would end up with bad scores either way. The first objective is to get the rifle shooting good elevation and then work on the wind part. For a new person starting out, I'd say practice (or attend matches) and try to keep all shots or as many as possible within the 10 ring on elevation (1 moa). This tells you about the persons form unless the wind and terrain are messing with the bullet. With time and experience will come understanding the wind, which is an endless learning lesson. Each time, the new shooter should strive for less bad elevation shots. I think this is the first thing a new shooter should try to master. How good is good enough? I'd say 1) have fun and not let bad shots get to you mentally 2) take notes on conditions, scores, your form, how you clean the barrel, round count, etc 3) and lastly, with time and proper practice, you will improve.
True on the wind, but if you are having elevation issues, it can be dead calm or blowing and you would end up with bad scores either way. The first objective is to get the rifle shooting good elevation and then work on the wind part. For a new person starting out, I'd say practice (or attend matches) and try to keep all shots or as many as possible within the 10 ring on elevation (1 moa). This tells you about the persons form unless the wind and terrain are messing with the bullet. With time and experience will come understanding the wind, which is an endless learning lesson. Each time, the new shooter should strive for less bad elevation shots. I think this is the first thing a new shooter should try to master. How good is good enough? I'd say 1) have fun and not let bad shots get to you mentally 2) take notes on conditions, scores, your form, how you clean the barrel, round count, etc 3) and lastly, with time and proper practice, you will improve.
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