The only 77gr .223 in the Black Hills Amunition online cataloge is the SMK.
Does anyone know why the OTM isn't in the catalog?
Does anyone know why the OTM isn't in the catalog?
- Thread starter Powerstrokediesel
- Start date
Re: Black Hills 77gr OTM not in the catalog
I am 99% sure that is the same thing. A SMK is an OTM bullet.
I am 99% sure that is the same thing. A SMK is an OTM bullet.
Re: Black Hills 77gr OTM not in the catalog
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chucky</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am 99% sure that is the same thing. A SMK is an OTM bullet.
</div></div>
Yes, except the OTM SMK has a cannelure. Maybe loaded hotter too?
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1482129...-with-cannelure
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chucky</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am 99% sure that is the same thing. A SMK is an OTM bullet.
</div></div>
Yes, except the OTM SMK has a cannelure. Maybe loaded hotter too?
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1482129...-with-cannelure
Re: Black Hills 77gr OTM not in the catalog
I see. Learn something new everyday.
I see. Learn something new everyday.
Re: Black Hills 77gr OTM not in the catalog
I have the 77gr SMK new production and it is cannalured. I plan on calling Black Hills tomorrow and ask if the OTM is still available.
I have the 77gr SMK new production and it is cannalured. I plan on calling Black Hills tomorrow and ask if the OTM is still available.
Re: Black Hills 77gr OTM not in the catalog
The OTM is pretty new. It is loaded to 5.56 specs, not .223. It is identical to the MK262.
The OTM is pretty new. It is loaded to 5.56 specs, not .223. It is identical to the MK262.
Re: Black Hills 77gr OTM not in the catalog
BLUF: OTM = HPBT Match
The "open tip match" (OTM) designation is a legal description used by DOD JAG to argue for the use of these bullets in combat. The Geneva and Hague Conventions have strict prohibitions against projectiles from causing "unnecessary suffering." The argument at the time stated two major issues in the use of OTM:
1. These bullets perform similiarly (in ballistic gellatin) to full metal jacket bullets already in use.
2. These bullets are more accurate, thus reducing "collateral damage" (hitting non-combatants).
JAG was successful in getting these OTM bullets and ammunition approved for combat use. It can be found in both 5.56 (Mk262)and 7.62 (M118 LR) NATO ammunition.
OTM is a more accurate description, and helps to prevent confusion that can occur when the designation "hollow point boat tail" is used. Match bullets (Sierra in this discussion) have an open tip as a consequence of bullet manufacturing processes, but there is an air space in front of the lead core within the copper jacket. A true hollow point bullet (as typically found in hunting bullets or self-defense handgun bullets) has a cavity within the lead core. This encourages the bullet to expand when it hits a fluid or solid object. This type of bullet is absolutely prohibited for use in combat.
The Mk 262 Mod 0 was loaded (typically) with the Sierra 77 grain MatchKing bullet. During full auto fire, and when suppressors were used, bullet set back occured. This resulted in the Mk 262 Mod 1, which used the cannelured bullet, reducing the occurance of bullet set back.
I hope that this helps.
BLUF: OTM = HPBT Match
The "open tip match" (OTM) designation is a legal description used by DOD JAG to argue for the use of these bullets in combat. The Geneva and Hague Conventions have strict prohibitions against projectiles from causing "unnecessary suffering." The argument at the time stated two major issues in the use of OTM:
1. These bullets perform similiarly (in ballistic gellatin) to full metal jacket bullets already in use.
2. These bullets are more accurate, thus reducing "collateral damage" (hitting non-combatants).
JAG was successful in getting these OTM bullets and ammunition approved for combat use. It can be found in both 5.56 (Mk262)and 7.62 (M118 LR) NATO ammunition.
OTM is a more accurate description, and helps to prevent confusion that can occur when the designation "hollow point boat tail" is used. Match bullets (Sierra in this discussion) have an open tip as a consequence of bullet manufacturing processes, but there is an air space in front of the lead core within the copper jacket. A true hollow point bullet (as typically found in hunting bullets or self-defense handgun bullets) has a cavity within the lead core. This encourages the bullet to expand when it hits a fluid or solid object. This type of bullet is absolutely prohibited for use in combat.
The Mk 262 Mod 0 was loaded (typically) with the Sierra 77 grain MatchKing bullet. During full auto fire, and when suppressors were used, bullet set back occured. This resulted in the Mk 262 Mod 1, which used the cannelured bullet, reducing the occurance of bullet set back.
I hope that this helps.
Re: Black Hills 77gr OTM not in the catalog
If you are looking for OTM, Kevin at HCS sounds most likely has some.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3087745#Post3087745
If you are looking for OTM, Kevin at HCS sounds most likely has some.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3087745#Post3087745
Re: Black Hills 77gr OTM not in the catalog
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longebow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BLUF: OTM = HPBT Match
The "open tip match" (OTM) designation is a legal description used by DOD JAG to argue for the use of these bullets in combat. The Geneva and Hague Conventions have strict prohibitions against projectiles from causing "unnecessary suffering." The argument at the time stated two major issues in the use of OTM:
1. These bullets perform similiarly (in ballistic gellatin) to full metal jacket bullets already in use.
2. These bullets are more accurate, thus reducing "collateral damage" (hitting non-combatants).
JAG was successful in getting these OTM bullets and ammunition approved for combat use. It can be found in both 5.56 (Mk262)and 7.62 (M118 LR) NATO ammunition.
OTM is a more accurate description, and helps to prevent confusion that can occur when the designation "hollow point boat tail" is used. Match bullets (Sierra in this discussion) have an open tip as a consequence of bullet manufacturing processes, but there is an air space in front of the lead core within the copper jacket. A true hollow point bullet (as typically found in hunting bullets or self-defense handgun bullets) has a cavity within the lead core. This encourages the bullet to expand when it hits a fluid or solid object. This type of bullet is absolutely prohibited for use in combat.
The Mk 262 Mod 0 was loaded (typically) with the Sierra 77 grain MatchKing bullet. During full auto fire, and when suppressors were used, bullet set back occured. This resulted in the Mk 262 Mod 1, which used the cannelured bullet, reducing the occurance of bullet set back.
I hope that this helps. </div></div>
One additional Note -- briefly the 77gr Nosler was used in the Mod1 as Sierra was resistant to the Cannelure.
As Longebow stated the OTM is BTHP.
I get Mk262 from BH, I also get Red and Blue box 77gr -- same bullet, don't sweat it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longebow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BLUF: OTM = HPBT Match
The "open tip match" (OTM) designation is a legal description used by DOD JAG to argue for the use of these bullets in combat. The Geneva and Hague Conventions have strict prohibitions against projectiles from causing "unnecessary suffering." The argument at the time stated two major issues in the use of OTM:
1. These bullets perform similiarly (in ballistic gellatin) to full metal jacket bullets already in use.
2. These bullets are more accurate, thus reducing "collateral damage" (hitting non-combatants).
JAG was successful in getting these OTM bullets and ammunition approved for combat use. It can be found in both 5.56 (Mk262)and 7.62 (M118 LR) NATO ammunition.
OTM is a more accurate description, and helps to prevent confusion that can occur when the designation "hollow point boat tail" is used. Match bullets (Sierra in this discussion) have an open tip as a consequence of bullet manufacturing processes, but there is an air space in front of the lead core within the copper jacket. A true hollow point bullet (as typically found in hunting bullets or self-defense handgun bullets) has a cavity within the lead core. This encourages the bullet to expand when it hits a fluid or solid object. This type of bullet is absolutely prohibited for use in combat.
The Mk 262 Mod 0 was loaded (typically) with the Sierra 77 grain MatchKing bullet. During full auto fire, and when suppressors were used, bullet set back occured. This resulted in the Mk 262 Mod 1, which used the cannelured bullet, reducing the occurance of bullet set back.
I hope that this helps. </div></div>
One additional Note -- briefly the 77gr Nosler was used in the Mod1 as Sierra was resistant to the Cannelure.
As Longebow stated the OTM is BTHP.
I get Mk262 from BH, I also get Red and Blue box 77gr -- same bullet, don't sweat it.
Re: Black Hills 77gr OTM not in the catalog
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longebow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BLUF: OTM = HPBT Match
The "open tip match" (OTM) designation is a legal description used by DOD JAG to argue for the use of these bullets in combat. The Geneva and Hague Conventions have strict prohibitions against projectiles from causing "unnecessary suffering." The argument at the time stated two major issues in the use of OTM:
1. These bullets perform similiarly (in ballistic gellatin) to full metal jacket bullets already in use.
2. These bullets are more accurate, thus reducing "collateral damage" (hitting non-combatants).
JAG was successful in getting these OTM bullets and ammunition approved for combat use. It can be found in both 5.56 (Mk262)and 7.62 (M118 LR) NATO ammunition.
OTM is a more accurate description, and helps to prevent confusion that can occur when the designation "hollow point boat tail" is used. Match bullets (Sierra in this discussion) have an open tip as a consequence of bullet manufacturing processes, but there is an air space in front of the lead core within the copper jacket. A true hollow point bullet (as typically found in hunting bullets or self-defense handgun bullets) has a cavity within the lead core. This encourages the bullet to expand when it hits a fluid or solid object. This type of bullet is absolutely prohibited for use in combat.
The Mk 262 Mod 0 was loaded (typically) with the Sierra 77 grain MatchKing bullet. During full auto fire, and when suppressors were used, bullet set back occured. This resulted in the Mk 262 Mod 1, which used the cannelured bullet, reducing the occurance of bullet set back.
I hope that this helps. </div></div>
One additional Note -- briefly the 77gr Nosler was used in the Mod1 as Sierra was resistant to the Cannelure.
As Longebow stated the OTM is BTHP.
I get Mk262 from BH, I also get Red and Blue box 77gr -- same bullet, don't sweat it.
</div></div>
So are the OTM (Mk262) and the Red box exactly the same, and the Blue box differs only in the brass being once fired?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longebow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BLUF: OTM = HPBT Match
The "open tip match" (OTM) designation is a legal description used by DOD JAG to argue for the use of these bullets in combat. The Geneva and Hague Conventions have strict prohibitions against projectiles from causing "unnecessary suffering." The argument at the time stated two major issues in the use of OTM:
1. These bullets perform similiarly (in ballistic gellatin) to full metal jacket bullets already in use.
2. These bullets are more accurate, thus reducing "collateral damage" (hitting non-combatants).
JAG was successful in getting these OTM bullets and ammunition approved for combat use. It can be found in both 5.56 (Mk262)and 7.62 (M118 LR) NATO ammunition.
OTM is a more accurate description, and helps to prevent confusion that can occur when the designation "hollow point boat tail" is used. Match bullets (Sierra in this discussion) have an open tip as a consequence of bullet manufacturing processes, but there is an air space in front of the lead core within the copper jacket. A true hollow point bullet (as typically found in hunting bullets or self-defense handgun bullets) has a cavity within the lead core. This encourages the bullet to expand when it hits a fluid or solid object. This type of bullet is absolutely prohibited for use in combat.
The Mk 262 Mod 0 was loaded (typically) with the Sierra 77 grain MatchKing bullet. During full auto fire, and when suppressors were used, bullet set back occured. This resulted in the Mk 262 Mod 1, which used the cannelured bullet, reducing the occurance of bullet set back.
I hope that this helps. </div></div>
One additional Note -- briefly the 77gr Nosler was used in the Mod1 as Sierra was resistant to the Cannelure.
As Longebow stated the OTM is BTHP.
I get Mk262 from BH, I also get Red and Blue box 77gr -- same bullet, don't sweat it.
</div></div>
So are the OTM (Mk262) and the Red box exactly the same, and the Blue box differs only in the brass being once fired?
Re: Black Hills 77gr OTM not in the catalog
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LCJones</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longebow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BLUF: OTM = HPBT Match
The "open tip match" (OTM) designation is a legal description used by DOD JAG to argue for the use of these bullets in combat. The Geneva and Hague Conventions have strict prohibitions against projectiles from causing "unnecessary suffering." The argument at the time stated two major issues in the use of OTM:
1. These bullets perform similiarly (in ballistic gellatin) to full metal jacket bullets already in use.
2. These bullets are more accurate, thus reducing "collateral damage" (hitting non-combatants).
JAG was successful in getting these OTM bullets and ammunition approved for combat use. It can be found in both 5.56 (Mk262)and 7.62 (M118 LR) NATO ammunition.
OTM is a more accurate description, and helps to prevent confusion that can occur when the designation "hollow point boat tail" is used. Match bullets (Sierra in this discussion) have an open tip as a consequence of bullet manufacturing processes, but there is an air space in front of the lead core within the copper jacket. A true hollow point bullet (as typically found in hunting bullets or self-defense handgun bullets) has a cavity within the lead core. This encourages the bullet to expand when it hits a fluid or solid object. This type of bullet is absolutely prohibited for use in combat.
The Mk 262 Mod 0 was loaded (typically) with the Sierra 77 grain MatchKing bullet. During full auto fire, and when suppressors were used, bullet set back occured. This resulted in the Mk 262 Mod 1, which used the cannelured bullet, reducing the occurance of bullet set back.
I hope that this helps. </div></div>
One additional Note -- briefly the 77gr Nosler was used in the Mod1 as Sierra was resistant to the Cannelure.
As Longebow stated the OTM is BTHP.
I get Mk262 from BH, I also get Red and Blue box 77gr -- same bullet, don't sweat it.
</div></div>
So are the OTM (Mk262) and the Red box exactly the same, and the Blue box differs only in the brass being once fired? </div></div>
No. Red and blue box are .223. OTM and MK262 are 5.56. The 5.56 rounds give you about an extra 100 feet per second.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LCJones</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longebow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BLUF: OTM = HPBT Match
The "open tip match" (OTM) designation is a legal description used by DOD JAG to argue for the use of these bullets in combat. The Geneva and Hague Conventions have strict prohibitions against projectiles from causing "unnecessary suffering." The argument at the time stated two major issues in the use of OTM:
1. These bullets perform similiarly (in ballistic gellatin) to full metal jacket bullets already in use.
2. These bullets are more accurate, thus reducing "collateral damage" (hitting non-combatants).
JAG was successful in getting these OTM bullets and ammunition approved for combat use. It can be found in both 5.56 (Mk262)and 7.62 (M118 LR) NATO ammunition.
OTM is a more accurate description, and helps to prevent confusion that can occur when the designation "hollow point boat tail" is used. Match bullets (Sierra in this discussion) have an open tip as a consequence of bullet manufacturing processes, but there is an air space in front of the lead core within the copper jacket. A true hollow point bullet (as typically found in hunting bullets or self-defense handgun bullets) has a cavity within the lead core. This encourages the bullet to expand when it hits a fluid or solid object. This type of bullet is absolutely prohibited for use in combat.
The Mk 262 Mod 0 was loaded (typically) with the Sierra 77 grain MatchKing bullet. During full auto fire, and when suppressors were used, bullet set back occured. This resulted in the Mk 262 Mod 1, which used the cannelured bullet, reducing the occurance of bullet set back.
I hope that this helps. </div></div>
One additional Note -- briefly the 77gr Nosler was used in the Mod1 as Sierra was resistant to the Cannelure.
As Longebow stated the OTM is BTHP.
I get Mk262 from BH, I also get Red and Blue box 77gr -- same bullet, don't sweat it.
</div></div>
So are the OTM (Mk262) and the Red box exactly the same, and the Blue box differs only in the brass being once fired? </div></div>
No. Red and blue box are .223. OTM and MK262 are 5.56. The 5.56 rounds give you about an extra 100 feet per second.
Re: Black Hills 77gr OTM not in the catalog
Thanks. I figured the OTM was hotter, but didn't think about the .223-5.56 difference.
Thanks. I figured the OTM was hotter, but didn't think about the .223-5.56 difference.
Re: Black Hills 77gr OTM not in the catalog
Same bullet -- the 5.56mm loadings are loaded to NATO pressure the .223 to .223 SAAMI
Same bullet -- the 5.56mm loadings are loaded to NATO pressure the .223 to .223 SAAMI
Re: Black Hills 77gr OTM not in the catalog
I picked up some. OTMs from Triad. I think Steve has about the best prices on Black Hills.
I picked up some. OTMs from Triad. I think Steve has about the best prices on Black Hills.
Re: Black Hills 77gr OTM not in the catalog
Does anyone here have some actual velocity/drop info on this? Drop info to include barrel length?
Does anyone here have some actual velocity/drop info on this? Drop info to include barrel length?
Re: Black Hills 77gr OTM not in the catalog
2720 avg out of me 18 inch SPR
2720 avg out of me 18 inch SPR
Re: Black Hills 77gr OTM not in the catalog
Black Hills OTM- 2750 fps (Avg), 18", 7000 ft, 35 degrees.
Black Hills OTM- 2750 fps (Avg), 18", 7000 ft, 35 degrees.
Re: Black Hills 77gr OTM not in the catalog
I get 2725 fps using the .223 version red/black box in my 20" RRA Varmint barrel.
I get 2725 fps using the .223 version red/black box in my 20" RRA Varmint barrel.
Re: Black Hills 77gr OTM not in the catalog
I'm average 2,820 out of my 18 inch Noveske using OTMs and MK262s. I did gain about 100 FPS over my 18 inch Sabre Defense barrel.
I'm average 2,820 out of my 18 inch Noveske using OTMs and MK262s. I did gain about 100 FPS over my 18 inch Sabre Defense barrel.
Re: Black Hills 77gr OTM not in the catalog
http://www.triadtactical.com/Black-Hills-New-5.56mm-77gr-Sierra-OTM.html
Black Hills quotes 2750 out of a 20" rifle.
http://www.triadtactical.com/Black-Hills-New-5.56mm-77gr-Sierra-OTM.html
Black Hills quotes 2750 out of a 20" rifle.
Re: Black Hills 77gr OTM not in the catalog
Thanks guys,
That sounds like the load I use to duplicate that is about right. I use 25.5 gr. of RE-15 behind the 75 Hornady or 77 gr. Sie./Nos CC. and get 2690 from a 16" barrel. 5.56 chamber.
Are your chambers 5.56 or .223? Or a variation of the .223?
Thanks guys,
That sounds like the load I use to duplicate that is about right. I use 25.5 gr. of RE-15 behind the 75 Hornady or 77 gr. Sie./Nos CC. and get 2690 from a 16" barrel. 5.56 chamber.
Are your chambers 5.56 or .223? Or a variation of the .223?
Re: Black Hills 77gr OTM not in the catalog
2780 out of a Rem 5R with 24" barrel. That was the 223 Red Box flavor.
2780 out of a Rem 5R with 24" barrel. That was the 223 Red Box flavor.
Re: Black Hills 77gr OTM not in the catalog
223 wylde chamber. Also my velocity figure is dope based, not chrono'd.
223 wylde chamber. Also my velocity figure is dope based, not chrono'd.
Re: Black Hills 77gr OTM not in the catalog
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: xmark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">223 wylde chamber. Also my velocity figure is dope based, not chrono'd.</div></div>
Actual drops...it don't get any better than that. How fast does a bullet go, at what range? It don't matter as long as it's hitting where you mean it to.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: xmark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">223 wylde chamber. Also my velocity figure is dope based, not chrono'd.</div></div>
Actual drops...it don't get any better than that. How fast does a bullet go, at what range? It don't matter as long as it's hitting where you mean it to.
Re: Black Hills 77gr OTM not in the catalog
I've shot the mod 0 and mod 1 in full auto suppressed m4a1's the mod 0 in my experience did not like to feed well out of GI mags and I witnessed a catastrophic failure in 130 degree heat good thing for 203's or the gun would have been worthless. I feel the mod 1 is more reliable as of current. But that was only 1 round of mod 0 so I by no means am trying to cast distaste on the mod 0.
I've shot the mod 0 and mod 1 in full auto suppressed m4a1's the mod 0 in my experience did not like to feed well out of GI mags and I witnessed a catastrophic failure in 130 degree heat good thing for 203's or the gun would have been worthless. I feel the mod 1 is more reliable as of current. But that was only 1 round of mod 0 so I by no means am trying to cast distaste on the mod 0.
Re: Black Hills 77gr OTM not in the catalog
BTT.
There is some good info on the difference between the 223 77 and 556 77 here. I am getting this question more and more as people are looking for the 556 77 stuff.
For a while they were loaded with different bullets. Now all Black Hills 77 bullets are the Sierra 77 SMK with cannelure, as used in the Mk262 mod 1.
Here are the listed specs:
223 2750fps from a 24" barrel
556 2750fps from a 20" barrel
I dont think you will find a difference in accuracy, unless you have one of "those" rifles that just insists on puking out the good stuff.
Just remember not to shoot 556 ammo out of a 223 chamber.
http://www.triadtactical.com/Black-Hills-New-5.56mm-77gr-Sierra-OTM.html
BTW, Black Hills now also offers the 69 Sierra in 556 as well.
http://www.triadtactical.com/Black-Hills-New-5.56mm-69gr-Sierra-OTM-Open-Tip-Match.html
BTT.
There is some good info on the difference between the 223 77 and 556 77 here. I am getting this question more and more as people are looking for the 556 77 stuff.
For a while they were loaded with different bullets. Now all Black Hills 77 bullets are the Sierra 77 SMK with cannelure, as used in the Mk262 mod 1.
Here are the listed specs:
223 2750fps from a 24" barrel
556 2750fps from a 20" barrel
I dont think you will find a difference in accuracy, unless you have one of "those" rifles that just insists on puking out the good stuff.
Just remember not to shoot 556 ammo out of a 223 chamber.
http://www.triadtactical.com/Black-Hills-New-5.56mm-77gr-Sierra-OTM.html
BTW, Black Hills now also offers the 69 Sierra in 556 as well.
http://www.triadtactical.com/Black-Hills-New-5.56mm-69gr-Sierra-OTM-Open-Tip-Match.html
Re: Black Hills 77gr OTM not in the catalog
We are seeing about a 50-60fps increase over the .223 77SMK in a 20" RRA at 850MSL in 65 degree weather. I chronoed some (the red box 77 OTM) a couple of weeks ago and it averaged 2650 and change. This barrel has always been a little on the slow side, and has about 300 rounds through it.
This is my wifes rifle, and she's been out to 650 yards with it so far.
Give Triad a call and get you some.
We are seeing about a 50-60fps increase over the .223 77SMK in a 20" RRA at 850MSL in 65 degree weather. I chronoed some (the red box 77 OTM) a couple of weeks ago and it averaged 2650 and change. This barrel has always been a little on the slow side, and has about 300 rounds through it.
This is my wifes rifle, and she's been out to 650 yards with it so far.
Give Triad a call and get you some.
