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100yard group?

Re: 100yard group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lilja, huh? I may have to give them another look.</div></div>

World of difference between the CZ factory barrel and a match grade barrel.
That doesn't mean you won't have to do some testing and adjusting to obtain best results.
One thing for sure, to take advantage of a match grade barrel,
you have to feed it quality ammunition, that means "pricey".
Inconsistent ammunition produces inconsistent trajectories.
Cheap ammo equals poor quality control and factory seconds.
 
Re: 100yard group?

jaia, in my neck of the woods, Shilen is considered to be one of the best that you can get in terms of a rimfire barrel. I've just never given any thought to getting a Lilja.

Like I said above, that was some darned fine shooting that you posted. Now don't take this the wrong way, but we've tested quite a few CZs, in an effort to find a rifle with match quality performance without having to dump the money into rebuilding a 40X or buying an Anschutz 54. The CZs just couldn't cut it and, for us, performed about on par with the better "run of the mill" bolt guns like Savage and Marlin.

Your CZ looks like it really shoots.

As far as your comments about the ammo, I've gotta say, Amen to that. There was a time when I actually used to measure rim thicknesses on ammo trying to find consistency. Let me tell you, if you ever get in the mood to waste some money and spend a bunch of time tearing your hair out, buy a rim thickness gauge and sit down with a brick of Wolf.

Truth be told, I can get pretty consistent MOA, a little better or worse, if I have a day when all of my wind flags are pointing the same direction and the flags are at about the same position indicating wind speed. A consistent condition...AND I'm shooting some flavor of $15+ per box ammo; but I'll tell you, those days are very few and far between. I shoot mostly Wolf because that's what we have to shoot in our matches.

BTW, have you ever taken that CZ and tried shooting a few ARA cards with it at 50 to see how consistent it stays through the transitions from target to target? I'm wondering because now I'm thinking that maybe if we took a CZ ($500 or so) and put a $500 Lilja barrel on it, it would still come in at less than rebuilding a 40x or getting into an Anschutz 54 and with the looks of your targets, it maybe be competitive with the big boys.

We're trying to grow our sport, but many new comers get turned off by the cost of the equipment necessary to be competitive. If we can show them a $1K alternative, it would be a really good thing.
 
Re: 100yard group?

Looked at Shilen, but no "drop-in" ready for the 455 receiver.
So the Lilja was the easy choice. Agreed, the CZ rimfires are production rifles.
They are intended to be sporter/hunting rifles. Not competition grade.
Biggest problem I found was play between barrel, receiver and stock.
It took epoxy shimming of the receiver to the stock and pillaring
to prevent movement at the moment of firing. Once that was done
I found the factory barrel was adequate for regular half inch groups
at 50 yards, but in no way comparable to a match rifle. With the Lilja
I also found that stock flex is a measurable factor in causing inaccuracy.
Subsonic ammo produces little recoil, so not very noticeable,
but run some high velocity ammo down the bore and the flex caused
by recoil shows up at the target. Spent multiple trips to the range
trying out different shim thicknesses and positions under the Lilja barrel
before finding the one location that allows moa/sub-moa accuracy.

There's a thread on site that covers the problem.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3271205#Post3271205

Once the CZ 455 was tuned and adjusted, what a major difference.
The resulting accuracy/consistency is now allowing me to correct
bad habits developed during the months using the factory barrel.

I like the Green Monster target of the USBR at 50 yards.
The shift from bull to bull teaches me more than shooting for group size.
Judging wind drift is still my greatest weakness.
 
Re: 100yard group?

jaia, thanks for the info, and you also make a very valid point. I really don't spend much time shooting groups any longer, except to zero my scope when I start a new lot of ammo. I've found that shooting groups is not the end all indicator of a rifle's accuracy. I've found that a rifle that can shoot consistently good groups (or should I say rifle/shooter combo), may not always hit the target.

For example, you can look at several series of groups that are posted all over the internet. The series may look good, due to the size of the groups, but if you notice, a lot of the time, the groups aren't in the same location on the target. The point of impact is changing as the shooter moves the rifle from one target to the next.

This shows an inconsistency in either the shooter's form and/or an inconsistency in the rifle's setup.

When I practice, I spend my time shooting at targets like these....
rimfiretarget.jpg


My rifle didn't like this particular lot of Wolf. I didn't hit as many clean Xs as I would have liked.

The way the scoring works for our match is that the bullet has to break the inside line of the center circle (essentially get at least a piece of a 3/8" target, to get the 100 points for that target. We use best line scoring. We voted it as a compromise, since we are prohibited from using good ammo for this match.

I'd say that if you want to become proficient with a rimfire, you should spend some time shooting at targets like these. In the end, shooting good groups gets you nothing if you can't hit the target. What I sometimes like to do as a little game after shooting my targets for practice is to try to hit the numbers to the bottom left of the targets, then I move to the staples. I'm finished with the target when it hits the ground.
 
Re: 100yard group?

Is that a 50' target? Ammo is the answer in sb rimfire.
 
Re: 100yard group?

the best my 10/22 does shooting Sk match is about .6moa which. so its possible to get one shooting lights out
 
Re: 100yard group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">-list their experience (how long have they been shooting)
-show some photos proving their claims...not just one photo but a string, all on the same sheet of 5 or so groupings...just to prove they can do it...all day long.
-a photo of their shooting rig.</div></div>

C'mon now seaaggie, gotta play by the rules!
Need to see proof of the claims.

post them pics, I need the gun pron...
wink.gif
 
Re: 100yard group?

I have been shooting for 51 years. The 22lr rimfire rifle that I shoot now is a CMP 40x. It has been bedded by Robert Gradous who also installed a Jewell trigger. I shoot the rifle off of a Rempel ski type bipod & standard rear bag. Centra iron sights front & rear. Ammunition is Federal 900. I was in Florida visiting my Best Friend from the Marine Corps back when we were pups. His range was lased at 103 yards. The rifle was set at 50 yard zero so I fired several rounds to get a proper 100 yard zero. I then fired a 20 round group. As I recall I paused when I felt the wind on my legs, when I could no longer feel the wind I went back to shooting. The result was a 1.251 20 shot group @ 103 yards. I will see if he will take a pic of the target & post it.
Semper Fi
 
Re: 100yard group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CZbob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd say it's relatively safe to assume that he's not an old hand at 100yd bench shooting.</div></div>

It's true. I only started to get into firearms a year ago. I've only started trying precision rifle about 6 months ago.
I am still learning.

Before a year ago I didn't even know regular people could own guns............. (how sad!)
 
Re: 100yard group?

95ltz, I do believe that a 20 round group would be a fair representation.

I'm supposed to be shooting a 50 yard match tomorrow. If I can, I'm going to try to shoot video, we're supposed to be shooting in the rain. I want to try to catch a clip of all three of my flags pointing in difference directions. When the condition first hits, you can hear the curses all the way down the line.

Our range SUCKS for shooting conditions.
 
Re: 100yard group?

I am also shooting in a 50 & 100 yard iron sight 22lr Match tomorrow. I'll report back tomorrow as to the results.
 
Re: 100yard group?

You guys that shoot irons amaze me. I shoot 50 and 100 rimfire with a 36X Weaver. Being able to watch the flight path helps sometimes.
 
Re: 100yard group?

[img:center]
019.jpg
[/img] This 95LTZ's 20 Shot group from 103 Yds. Rifle was 40X with iron sight and bi-pod. Group measured 1.251 Inches. He did a fine job beat 2 of us. Good Shooting my friend.

Semper Fi!
 
Re: 100yard group?

I envy folks whose eyes are good enough to make use of iron sights.
My optometrist told me: "Not only do you need glasses, so do your guns!"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I want to try to catch a clip of all three of my flags pointing in difference directions.</div></div>

Like this morning? 20 plus knots from the SE and gusting higher.
Closest one is pointing NE in a gust, the next is pointing S
and the one by the target is pointing SW what do you do?

hunh.JPG


Watch the trajectories go all over the place.
laugh.gif


ccisv-gust.jpeg
 
Re: 100yard group?

Ok, so we had the match today. I got there early to double check the sight settings. During that time I was quite happy with the results. They said that we could either shoot the 50 or the 100 yard portion first. I was already set at the 50 yard setting so I fire a couple of sighters & move to the 1st target of record. I fire five & then check the spotting scope for the results. (remember 60+ year old eyes & iron sights) I am quite pleased with a 3/8" group (measured later) which gets me a 50 with 3 x's. I am feeling pretty good about this. The next 4 record targets @ 50 yards I go completely in the tank. I even manage a 1.250 5 shoot group. Since I was having pretty good luck @ 100 yards earlier I figure I can make up some ground. WRONG! My first 4 targets of record are terrible. I was rewarded with a 5 shot group of 2.5". The best I could manage at 100 yards was the last target of the day which was 7/8". A very humbling day indeed. A frustrating match is still a day at the range. Met some incredible new folks so all is good.
 
Re: 100yard group?

I shot a match this morning as well. I got to the range, 40 minutes from home, at about six. The match starts at 7:30. I start setting up, pull my rifle out, open the compartment where I keep my bolt, and...no bolt. Well, of course the bolt isn't there, it's still on my bench because I had to replace the extractor springs.

So...I get a friend of mine to set up my targets and I jump in my truck, haul butt home, grab the bolt and head back. I get there and the match has started. I jump out, grab my rifle, insert bolt and start shooting. What was supposed to be a bad weather morning turned out to be beautiful. I shoot the first cold bore shot into a sighter, then follow up with four more sighters and they all go through one hole.

I figure, great, this is going to be a good day. The conditions are almost perfect, thank goodness, since I couldn't get my flags out. So...I shoot 19 100s in a row and then, WTF? Two 50s in a row. Was it me? Was it the ammo? I don't know. I pull the bolt out, brush the chamber, shoot another 20 or so 100s, and another WTF. I shot two 50s on each of three cards.

I wound up with a 7200 out of 7500 and came in dead last. I should have stayed in bed. Heck, last week, the conditions were less friendly and I shot a 7450 for second place.

You just never can tell. Oh well, at least I'm still in first place in the aggs.

I thought that I might also be shooting a 100 yard F Class rimfire match today, but it was cancelled due to anticipated weather. I'm thinking that was probably a good thing.

Oh, I didn't mention this before, but I've been shooting since 6. When I got to be old enough to buy my own guns, I got into shooting pistols and concentrated on steel and USPSA. When my last son was born, I took about a ten year break from competition shooting. I've been into shooting long range and precision shooting for about the last two years.

My precision rifle is a Remington 40X in a McMillan stock.
 
Re: 100yard group?

I shot this target at the menomonie range a few weeks ago. I am not sure if I posted it here yet, but I am sorry if it is a repeat.

I have been hunting for 20 years and started out on airguns.
I bought my 455 American a little over a year ago.

MODS:
Pillars, bolt work, trigger job

The trigger breaks at 8 oz and has no creep.
The bolt feels like it is riding on air and the action sits on pillars that I made and installed. I can fit 12 dollar bills under the barrel, number 13 has some resistance.
It wears a Hawke 8.5-25x42 scope.

100yardtarget.jpg


It was shot with this, from a bipod.
scope1.jpg
 
Re: 100yard group?

I spent yesterday afternoon shooting a couple rimfires at 100 yards.

First up was my Custom Ruger Charger. I was shooting both SK Jagd Standard Velocity Hollow Points and Wolt Match Target. I shot 5 - 5 shot groups with each brand and type of ammo at 100 yards. I was rewarded with the same results as the last time I shot this Charger at 100 yards. Overall average for the SK jagd Standard Velocity Hollow Points was 1.410" with the single best group measuring .88" and the worst group measuring right at 2". Overall average for the Wolf Match Target was 1.548" with the single best group measuring .908" and the worst group measuring slightly over 2".

I also shot my Custom Ruger 77/22, again with both SK Jagd Standard Velocity Hollow Points and Wolt Match Target. I shot 5 - 5 shot groups with each brand and type of ammo at 100 yards. Overall average for the SK jagd Standard Velocity Hollow Points was 1.651" with the single best group measuring 1.334" and the worst group measuring right at 2.25". Overall average for the Wolf Match Target was 1.457" with the single best group measuring 1.172" and the worst group measuring slightly over 2".

This is the first time I have shot this 77/22 since I put the McMillan Stock on it. While I really like this stock it has a totally different feel than the Volquartsen Laminated Stock that used to be on this rifle. A bit of a learning curve for the shooter so to speak.

Larry
 
Re: 100yard group?

<span style="font-weight: bold">50 yard and 100 yard best groups so far with a Savage TRR. Using just bipod.</span>
<span style="font-weight: bold">50 yards:</span>

DSCF0625.jpg

<span style="font-weight: bold">
100 yards:</span>

DSCN8901.JPG


DSCN8902.JPG
 
Re: 100yard group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">-list their experience (how long have they been shooting)
-show some photos proving their claims...not just one photo but a string, all on the same sheet of 5 or so groupings...just to prove they can do it...all day long.
-a photo of their shooting rig.</div></div>

I've done a little handgun shooting before, but I'm new to long range shooting. The majority of my rifle shooting experience has been from sighting in rifles at 100 yards for hunting season over the past couple years. I bought a Savage FV in March to use as a trainer. I took it out and tested it before spending more on a new stock, bottom metal, different ammo types, etc... (thats where the previous groups were from)

Here's what it looks like now.
FV-Tacticool-1.jpg


I like having the mil/mil scope but I think I'm still getting a lot of flyers from inconsistent cheek weld/scope shadowing issues. I'm going to order a triad stock pack soon, and I may take my Nikon 4.5-14 off my centerfire so I can adjust the parallax. I shot these with the new stock off a bipod and rear bag at 120 yards using a new lot of Wolf MT.
GraphicWolfMTNewLot.jpg


CCI Green Tag and Eley Club also shot very well, but they were the last two brands of ammo I tried that day and I was a little fatigued. I'm going to test them again next time out.
 
Re: 100yard group?

Sorry, I just saw the part about calm wind.
I guess my target does not count then, since it was 10+mph.
I apologize for misleading anyone. :p
 
Re: 100yard group?

ETgJf.jpg


Birchwood Casey tells me these are 1 inch targets, left is 6 shots with a 10/22 and the right is 1 shot with a rem 700 (.308) at 50 yards.

The two flyers on the .22 were shot before I realized just how accurate my rifle was lol

edit: The ammo my 10/22 loves is the CCI stuff that comes in the plastic 100 rnd slide top boxes.
 
Re: 100yard group?

I have not managed to average sub moa at 100 yds with my Anschutz 1710. It throws some my way but seems to more often shoot around 1.5 MOA in good conditions. These conditions amount to comfortable temperatures with no wind. If I am uncomfortably hot or cold it seems that the ammo tends to agree. I don't think they use the latest generation temperature tolerant powder in middle of the road .22 ammo. I shoot mostly fed 719, wolf, and cci std velocity. I am just unwilling to pony up the money for top shelf ammo and the Anschutz is quite tolerant of a wide variety of lesser ammo. It shoots surprisingly well with Winchester Wildcat or Federal Lightning despite the economy pricing. The Wildcat will often out group the more expensive federal 719 but is has a problem with occasional dramatically poor fliers. I have never tried anything copper washed and don't intend to. I think that Anschutz must cut their chambers, at least the ones in the sporters, with an eye towards shooting well with a variety of fodder instead of maximizing one load as many match smiths aim to do. This suits me fine. I just can't bring myself to drop the big dollars for match fodder. Perhaps with money on the line I would change my tune. Lately I have used mostly Fed 719 but have been considering going with the less pricy CCI more often or even cheep Wildcats. In any case, here is your sub moa group. It is the best so far though I usually shoot steel spinners so I don't produce to many nice paper records.


spinnergroupcrop.jpg
 
Re: 100yard group?

Back when I was shooting a lot of rimfire, my 10/22 Target wearing Leupold 4x12 would print 5-shot, .75"-ish 100 yards groups w/ Ely Club and Match Extra, and RWS Dynamite Nobel. 50 yard groups were often substantially sub-half minute when conditions were right and I did my part. I actually purposely shot a fly that landed on my target once at 50 yards (and have a witness whom was spotting for me whom can confirm).
I just picked up a MK II FV-SR about an hour ago and slapped a Vortex 4x12 on it. Very interested in seeing how it'll do!
 
Re: 100yard group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TonyAngel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">jaia, thanks for the info, and you also make a very valid point. I really don't spend much time shooting groups any longer, except to zero my scope when I start a new lot of ammo. I've found that shooting groups is not the end all indicator of a rifle's accuracy. I've found that a rifle that can shoot consistently good groups (or should I say rifle/shooter combo), may not always hit the target.

For example, you can look at several series of groups that are posted all over the internet. The series may look good, due to the size of the groups, but if you notice, a lot of the time, the groups aren't in the same location on the target. The point of impact is changing as the shooter moves the rifle from one target to the next.

This shows an inconsistency in either the shooter's form and/or an inconsistency in the rifle's setup.

When I practice, I spend my time shooting at targets like these....
rimfiretarget.jpg


My rifle didn't like this particular lot of Wolf. I didn't hit as many clean Xs as I would have liked.

The way the scoring works for our match is that the bullet has to break the inside line of the center circle (essentially get at least a piece of a 3/8" target, to get the 100 points for that target. We use best line scoring. We voted it as a compromise, since we are prohibited from using good ammo for this match.

I'd say that if you want to become proficient with a rimfire, you should spend some time shooting at targets like these. In the end, shooting good groups gets you nothing if you can't hit the target. What I sometimes like to do as a little game after shooting my targets for practice is to try to hit the numbers to the bottom left of the targets, then I move to the staples. I'm finished with the target when it hits the ground. </div></div>

Hi, I shoot ARA also, and was looking at your target and scoring, and wondered how you got 2,500 score out of that target. It's a pretty good target, but ARA is worst edge scoring as demonstrated in the illistration in the upper left hand corner of the target. Target #6, #10, and #22 clearly score 50 not 100, and target #21 would score 25 not 100, and targets #1, #7, #11, and #19 are all hugging the outer edge of the ring and would have to be plugged to be sure, but I'm betting at least one if not more would score 50 also. Best case I think this target would score 2,225. For example this target scored 2,200 at a match.
6968823482_4284f8eaae_c.jpg


The same rifle shoots like this at 100yds
6552245695_f7c57fd48c_b.jpg


Best 5 shot group at 100yds
6051483477_35a7d078a0_b.jpg
 
Re: 100yard group?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Playerz1337</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I get about .75" at 100 yards with my Savage Mark II thumbhole stock. I use CCI target 40 gr round nose lead at 1,070 fps.

Something to try before switching to "match" ammo. Can also be bought in bulk packs of 500 of you can find them.</div></div>

+1 Same exact setup.. same results... that is a good combination
 
Re: 100yard group?

<span style="font-weight: bold">My 13 year old son raised the bar on me this weekend. He shot a 5 round .900" group at 1oo yards using bulk Blazer.

Him and the gun:</span>
DSCF0665.jpg


<span style="font-weight: bold">Target:</span>
DSCN8988.JPG
 
Re: 100yard group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HathcockWannebe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tempest...you keep that boy shootin', aight?

Freakin' awesome. </div></div>

Thanks! I will tell him. Last weekend he shot .5 MOA at 400 w/ a 10 BA. I'm pretty impressed.
 
Re: 100yard group?

JDBraddy, we use best line scoring for our match because we are limited with regard to the type of ammunition that we can use. Every one shooting the match is required to shoot Wolf Match Target which is provided by the range. We aren't even allowed to lot shop the ammo.
 
Re: 100yard group?

30 shots Eley Tenex CZ452 Ultra Lux BRNO #4 Aperture Sights,,it will hold the 2 inch 10 ring as long as you can read the wind and usually around 60-65 % in the 1 inch X ring,,

4102012047.jpg
 
Re: 100yard group?

100 yard 3 shot group with 1940's stevens model 416 gov training rifle with leatherwood 6x tube scope. target dot was a 3/4 inch shoot n see target paster dot.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us
 
Re: 100yard group?

Not quite 100 (70), but how about subsonic? Low was first clean, cold bore.

5 Shots. Absolutely silent.

1STLOW.jpg
 
Re: 100yard group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 95LTZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My first 4 targets of record are terrible. I was rewarded with a 5 shot group of 2.5". The best I could manage at 100 yards was the last target of the day which was 7/8". A very humbling day indeed. A frustrating match is still a day at the range. Met some incredible new folks so all is good.</div></div>

The days with the tough winds are frustrating, but those are the days that make you better. If it were all calm wind shooting days, 100 yards with a 22 would be boring.

Sure, you aren't going to shoot anything you are going to post on the Internet, but on those days, you need to watch how you do relative to other shooters. On a calm day, I might edge the next best shooter by a couple of points and a handful of X's.

On a windy day, I get competitive. I want to beat the next best guy by 15 or 20 points. It won't be the best score I ever shot, but you are shooting against the coniditions, not your personal record. I have some targets with quite a few dropped points that I am very proud of because of the conditions that day. I am not immune to getting down on myself with some fantastic shooting and low scores in rough conditions, but it is a good feeling to be able to pull off some tough shots where I may be doping several MOA over and getting 10's.

As to average group size... my average is about .8 MOA with an incredible gun and great ammo. I can shoot a half inch group at least once a range session. That is not all day long. People will often post the best group they ever shot and call it "typical results." Nobody ever bothers to take pictures of the tenth best group they ever shot. If someone takes the time to post something on the Internet, it usually means it is worth taking the time to take a picture, uploading it to a photo site, and then posting a link. That is a long process... nobody does that for the "average" group they shot that day. I believe I have squirreled away a .25 MOA group that I shot at 100 yards with my 22. That is not average. That is luck of the draw. Something I don't repeat often. And I shoot over 5,000 rounds a year of rimfire. At least I used to when I had more time.

Anyway, the point is, newbies all of the time ask for "typical" results and what they get is the best group somebody has ever shot. And usually that somebody shoots a lot.

I would day, for a newbie, I good average grouping to shoot for is 1.5", which will probably include some 2" groups and some sub-MOA groups. For someone with a great gun with a hummer barrel and the right ammo, shooting outside, a bit under MOA is a good average with many groups greater than an inch.

Of course, all of this varies with conditions, quality of the rifle, and quality of the ammo, nevermind quality of the shooter. Wind is a both even at 50 yards, but 50 yards is a good place to work on fundamentals with a 22. Fundamentals can be frustrating to work on at 100 yards, because ammo quality and wind can wreak havoc. You might have a perfectly executed shot and miss by a mile. That is what makes the rimfire game fun and worthwhile.
 
Re: 100yard group?

Ive only taken my CZ 455 PT out twice and have only put SK Standard + thru it but even with less than 500 rounds thru it and thur an unseasoned barrel its pulling MOA at 50 and 100 yards from a bipod and tactical bag but liek others have said this was the best groups pulled from about 5 targets at 50 and 5 at 100. The other groups werent much worse but these were the 2 that were MOA.

IMG_0115 by usmcchet92_96, on Flickr


IMG_0116 by usmcchet92_96, on Flickr

I got some Remington Match and will order some Eley and put it on my benchrest just to see how it does. Dont have any indoor 100 yard ranges but for outdoor this aint to shabby.

cz455PTgrn (2) by usmcchet92_96, on Flickr
 
Re: 100yard group?

I'm in Western Pa visiting and was blessed with a dead calm evening after a few days of stormy weather. I had my two new rimfire toys out to play with along with some new lots of SK Jagd to test. Shooting from a solid bench with Caldwell Rock BR front rest and Protektor rear bag. Rifles are an Anschutz 64 MPR with benchrest block and a circa 1950's Win 52 B Target. Both rifles are sporting Vortex Viper 6.5-20x44
IMG_1495_groups_screencap.jpg


The second group in the first column is only a four shot group because a target of opportunity presented itself in the form of a Dragonfly:
IMG_0072.jpg


It was a VERY good night and not what I would consider "typical". Although the Win 52 is demonstrating that it is an absolute tack driver with about any quality match ammo.
wink.gif