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Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

B

boomfab

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 29, 2007
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Missouri, USA
<span style="font-weight: bold">I'm talking about 10-shot groups at 100 yards. What are you getting with your AR-10?</span>

Not 3-shot or 5-shot groups! Almost any decent rifle with any ammo can luck into good 3-shot or 5-shot groups.

I just got my first "famous maker" $3K AR-10 style rifle. I cannot get it to shoot under 1.1" 10-shot groups at 100 yards.

I handload everything. I've tried 175 SMKs, 155 SMKs, 155 Scenars, 155 Noslers, 168 Noslers, 155 Berger Hybrids, and 155.5 Bergers. Three different powder types with all the bullets, Varget, H4895 and XBR 8208. I've run charges every 0.5 grain and up to 1.0 grain over book.

I shoot thousands of rounds of ammo through my stainless barreled AR15's every year in competition. With a properly developed load, they all shoot under 3/4" 10-shot groups when shot off bags.

Any ideas would be appreciated. I've tried shooting from a bipod with rear bag. Front and rear bags seem to work better though.
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

What rifle?
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

If the gun has a accuracy guarantee I would send it back.
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

Not an AR-10, but this is what my Rock River LAR-8 will do with 10 shots (and this is normal, I've done this several times):

a4c40ae18eb6a8f893c5a294.jpg
 
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Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CanSniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Keep in mind the large frame AR takes some getting use to. Its a little different than the AR15. </div></div>
You really have to know how to drive a gas gun.
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

I have always been curious about how a gun maker verifies the accuracy of a gun. If they guarantee MOA out of their gun are they shooting off of Bipod, bags ect. I would think to rule out user error you would have to shoot the gun from some type of mechanical rest. I know when I shoot my guns to test a load I use a Lead sled, for me that is the only way I can be sure that a bad grouping was not caused by me. Once I have verified that a certain load performs well, I then shoot minus the sled and see what I can do as far as groups go. If the group sucks I know it is me not the gun or load.
 
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Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boomfab</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I cannot get it to shoot under 1.1" 10-shot groups at 100 yards.
</div></div>

Key part.

Large frame AR's are notoriously difficult to shoot well and it's very easy to spoil a decent group because of cheekweld/fatigue issues.

Try shooting some 3 or 5 round groups sequentially (shoot one 3 shot group, take a break, shoot another, take a break). If you still can't get the rifle to group consistently w/same POI then I would check either the scope parallax or call the maker and discuss it with them.
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DamnYuppie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the gun has a accuracy guarantee I would send it back. </div></div>

^^This^^

I have a DPMS SASS that was a legitimate 1.5 MOA rifle. It's off for rebarreling to 260, and I sure hope it comes back (much) better than it was.

A shooting buddy has a Les Baer 308 AR, with which I've personally laid down a 1/2" 10-shot group at 200 yards with 7.62x51 175gr FGMM. The rifle was delivered with a sub-1/4" (100 yards) 5x5 test target that was fired with FGMM 168.

A "premium" AR10 will shoot as accurately as YOU can shoot it.

OP: If your rifle has a gaurantee, send it in.
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boomfab</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I cannot get it to shoot under 1.1" 10-shot groups at 100 yards.
</div></div>

Key part.

Large frame AR's are notoriously difficult to shoot well and it's very easy to spoil a decent group because of cheekweld/fatigue issues.

Try shooting some 3 or 5 round groups sequentially (shoot one 3 shot group, take a break, shoot another, take a break). If you still can't get the rifle to group consistently w/same POI then I would check either the scope parallax or call the maker and discuss it with them. </div></div>

This is the reason it took me so long to get to the point where I was totally willing to place the blame for inaccuracy on my SASS rifle... Everyone on the hide says "gas guns are more difficult to shoot well than bolt guns".

Well... Perhaps.

I tried EVERYTHING with my SASS, and very very rarely got a good group out of it. Each time it would group "well", I'd wonder if maybe I had made a personal break-through and drove the rifle well.

All that went away when my friend got his Les Baer. We had both rifles sitting side by side. Both rifles have the same stock, trigger and even scope. My SASS lays down a shotgun pattern-like group, and the Baer bugholes. Back to the SASS - shotgun. Baer - bughole. SASS - shotgun. Baer - bughole. Any time I was behind the Baer, it shot lights out. Every time I got behind my SASS, it was shooting like shit.

In my case, it wasn't "user error". I'm not some kind of amazing shooter. I just do the fundamentals: Straight behind the rifle, load the bipod, check NPA, check parallax, 90º angle in your finger joint, address the trigger with your fingerpad, don't drag wood, and push the trigger straight back. Thats it.
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

As a few others have already denoted...driving a .308 gas gun is a true skill onto itself. Once you rule out the driver, than any number of things could be the culprit given your accuracy expectations to begin with are possible. One of those things where you just gotta run down the "check list" until you discover the problem and can address it.

Good for you on the 10rd. group policy...it's the only way to fly in my book:)

Some recent accuracy/ammo evaluations from my LMT MWS 16" CL...
DSC02525-1.jpg


targetnew3.jpg

target42.jpg

target75.jpg

target94.jpg
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I tried EVERYTHING with my SASS</div></div>

My SASS was a laser with everything once I got my technique down. I truly believe that unless you have a defective barrel most any of these rifles will shoot well with the right load and good shooter.
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I tried EVERYTHING with my SASS</div></div>

My SASS was a laser with everything once I got my technique down. I truly believe that unless you have a defective barrel most any of these rifles will shoot well with the right load and good shooter.

</div></div>

I agree, most shoot very well. Mine was a lemon. Bummer for me is that DPMS makes no accuracy claims, and you simply "pay your money,and take your chances".
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I tried EVERYTHING with my SASS</div></div>

My SASS was a laser with everything once I got my technique down. I truly believe that unless you have a defective barrel most any of these rifles will shoot well with the right load and good shooter.

</div></div>

I agree, most shoot very well. Mine was a lemon. Bummer for me is that DPMS makes no accuracy claims, and you simply "pay your money,and take your chances". </div></div>
That is the problem I had one that was a newer model that shot no better than 1 1/2 MOA and the one I sold due to medical bills shot five shot groups right under 1/2 MOA and never shot worse than 1 MOA with factory ammo. The Gun was a tack driver and one of those "I wish I never let it go" guns
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boomfab</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">I'm talking about 10-shot groups at 100 yards. What are you getting with your AR-10?</span>

Not 3-shot or 5-shot groups! Almost any decent rifle with any ammo can luck into good 3-shot or 5-shot groups.

I just got my first "famous maker" $3K AR-10 style rifle. I cannot get it to shoot under 1.1" 10-shot groups at 100 yards.

I handload everything. I've tried 175 SMKs, 155 SMKs, 155 Scenars, 155 Noslers, 168 Noslers, 155 Berger Hybrids, and 155.5 Bergers. Three different powder types with all the bullets, Varget, H4895 and XBR 8208. I've run charges every 0.5 grain and up to 1.0 grain over book.

I shoot thousands of rounds of ammo through my stainless barreled AR15's every year in competition. With a properly developed load, they all shoot under 3/4" 10-shot groups when shot off bags.

Any ideas would be appreciated. I've tried shooting from a bipod with rear bag. Front and rear bags seem to work better though.
</div></div>


Sooo, what rifle is it you are shooting?

Just curious, not looking to bash anyone but it may help if we knew who the manu. was. You can PM it if you prefer.
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

Trident, that is a badass rifle you have there, buddy. It's certainly something to be proud of and show off!
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

I appreciate the kind words brother. It appears you have one equally as nice.....just a bit more MV than mine
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

Thank you but...what is MV? I can't seem to keep track of all the abbreviations and Internet lingo. LoL
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

MV stands for Muzzle Velocity...so I was just meaning that your 20" .308 gas gun generates a little bit more velocity than my 16" .308 gas gun.
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

Been having some issues with my Armalite Super SASS as well, was actually just getting ready to make a thread to see what people thought.
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

I shot the rifle today at 400 yards. The mediocre 175 SMK load shot pretty good at just a bit over 1 MOA.

The 155's shot like crap at 400. All over the 10" plate.

I'm not going to say the name of the maker as it'll just make a huge shitstorm.

I figure I'm stuck with the gun. Even if I survived the maker's verbal berating of saying it wasn't accurate, they'd knock out a 3-shot group and call me an idiot.
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boomfab</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I shot the rifle today at 400 yards. The mediocre 175 SMK load shot pretty good at just a bit over 1 MOA.

The 155's shot like crap at 400. All over the 10" plate.

I'm not going to say the name of the maker as it'll just make a huge shitstorm.


I figure I'm stuck with the gun. Even if I survived the maker's verbal berating of saying it wasn't accurate, they'd knock out a 3-shot group and call me an idiot. </div></div>

I figure that's what DPMS did when I sent mine in, though they did not supply a test target.

My best advice is have your buddys shoot it too, preferably people you KNIW can shoot. If it still sucks, send it in with an explanation - and that you expect a 10 round group. A 10 rounder is only fair.
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boomfab</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'm not going to say the name of the maker as it'll just make a huge shitstorm.
</div></div>

PM please. I'd like to know what builder won't stand behind their rifle.
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

Dual impulse recoil is hard for some to master. I would never fault a gas gun from a single shooters performance if that shooter is new to the LR-10 platform of guns! I can say that any really high end AR-10 style gun will shoot with the best bolt guns on earth. I have seen several high end gas guns shoot well sub 1/2 moa groups at what most would consider max effective range. I will also say that most manufactures will guarantee groups of 5 shot not 10 shot for the reason that most bench rest shooters will take hours showing you their 9 and 1 targets. Although recoil is lighter on a gas gun correct alignment behind the rifle, proper bipod usage and trigger management procedures are vastly more important than on bolt guns.
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

My barrel took a while to shoot good. Maybe 300 rds to season the tube and get the feel of the gun. I can shoot sub 1" and usually hold 3/4 with my LMT. I have several 5 shot groups that are at 1/2. I have never tried a 10 shot group.
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

GAP10 in 6mmCreedmoor. Half Minute
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

I have a hard time running JP enterprise 308s. I have two with 16-18" barrels. I am using S&B glass on one and NF on the other. Ammo is 168gr Fed match. My teeth rattle due to the muzzle break.

After I shoot the ARs I will shoot a Surgeon or Crusader and have considerably better groups. Same ammo same glass same range and same wind.

My groups differ by the day as well. One day I will shoot 10rds at 600 yards and get a 8"-10" group and the following day shoot the same thing and get 4"-6" group. I sometimes wonder if it is the force of a Jedi Knight that really controls these bullets?
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

I haven't shot near us much large platform AR's as most of these guys but it definately takes a lot more shooter concentration and fundamental rifle skills to shoot them as good as a bolt gun, way more mechanical stuff going on after the trigger breaks that affect the accuracy before it gets out of the muzzle. I also know if you get the proper handloads in regard to OAL, neck tension, how much you squeeze it down when you resize in order to insure reliable function all play a big part in accuracy and repeatability. I have never really shot 10 round groups with a gas gun, I usually loose my concentration after 5 and throw one out so I get pissed and quit at 5! But with patience and practice you can get there, if you can master it you can have an advantage over a bolt gun in some competitions.
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

Depends on what caliber. AR10s built in 6mm Creedmoor, 6.5x47 Lapua of 6XC have a very good reputation for shooting sub MOA.
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

I shoot a .308 GAP-10 and easily shoots 3/4 moa 10 shot group's. 95% of the time they are 1/2 groups but sometimes they open up a little which I would consider operator error but I am extremely careful.
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

I'm going to hit this from another angle which is target related. Now I'm not suggesting that a target will make a gun shoot better, but having a good horizontal and vertical line through the aim point in the target sure helps the shooter. I see that a poster above made some great groups with an oblonged target and my hat is off to him. For me, when shooting groups or testing a rifle for accuracy, I use a diamond shaped center with 1" grid lines each way. It helps me get these older eyes lined up and hold the rifle (not weapon system) true through the trigger pull. Just two worthless cents from a new poster.
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

I ignore every vertical and horizontal relation on and to the target other than where I wish the round to impact. I pay attention to only the level on my rifle as it will remain a constant.
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

I have the following:
GAP10 - 18"
REPR - 20"
REPR - 18"
Noveske N6 - 18"

All of these have the good Geissele adjustable trigger, all were bought new.
All broken in properly per the manufacturers instructions.
All shoot 1" groups on the best day.

Occasionally like you see in pictures here on the internet, I can plug 4 or five shots into the same hole. Never at 6 targets in a row. Never.

I shoot 5 round groups, six at a time, thats 30 rounds on a 6 bullseye paper, to determine average group size for that day. I measure bullet holes center to center. All shots count, no fliers, mulligans, everything counts. This will the same ammo. Federal Gold Medal Match 168 grain, in the same lot. I buy about 1000 in Jan and use this throughout the year as benchmark ammo.
I do this over the course of several months to determine the rifles shooting capability.

The alway usually average out to about 1 inche.

For every 1/2 inch group there is a 1.5 inch group.

I challenge anyone here, to show me 6 five rounds groups on the same paper that are <1" with any of the above mentioned rifles.

My question is: What will your rifle shoot on demand, any day, any time? Pick a group, fire 5 for record, do it six times in a row.
There's your average.

To me, a guns average is NOT the best group its ever printed. Its what you shoot on demand;

BTW - My GAP Crusader shoots <.5 inch, any day any time.

What I haven't done is to put the gun in a Lead Sled.

 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

I took the gas block and gas tube off this rifle so I could shoot it completely manually operated.

It shoots no better.

I tried it with my thread on AAC Cyclone.

I tried it with a Surefire brake.

I tried it with no muzzle device at all.

This thing still has yet to do a 1 MOA 10-shot group.
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

I shot my first ever 10 shot group Thursday and shot it with my P308. I also shot it fairly quick. I'd say one round every 3 seconds. This was after a few 5 shot groups, the barrel was good and hot after the 10 shot group. I struggled with the AR platform like people talk about. I also don't have a whole lot of experience off of a bipod with an AR. I shot alright, it was about 1 3/4" group. I need more practice that's for sure. It was also kind of frustrating because I had just shot really good wih the bolt action.

Next time I go for 10 I need to slow down and go through a good mental checklist before each shot and let the barrel cool off after a few shots
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

You got to let em cool between strings, probably after round 7 the the group started to open.
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

Ok, here we go as per your challenge, Can-sniper and four other hide members witnessed the first 5+ groups out of my 20" 260 LMT barrel. Here was the break in procedure, shot it! first 5 shot group not suppressed was under .5 moa, second group was well sub .5 moa, the next was suppressed and it was a whopping .3 moa. then about 2 hours later without a cleaning I shot a 3" group at 900 meters and again without a cleaning rolled it to either 1100 or 1200 meters I forget now, that group was a solid sub 5" group. Then we had 4 other people shot it, again not a single cleaning yet and the worst group of the five shooters was 8" at either the 1100 or 1200 meters. I think there are several people in this thread alone that will take this challenge.
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cmonroe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, here we go as per your challenge, Can-sniper and four other hide members witnessed the first 5+ groups out of my 20" 260 LMT barrel. Here was the break in procedure, shot it! first 5 shot group not suppressed was under .5 moa, second group was well sub .5 moa, the next was suppressed and it was a whopping .3 moa. then about 2 hours later without a cleaning I shot a 3" group at 900 meters and again without a cleaning rolled it to either 1100 or 1200 meters I forget now, that group was a solid sub 5" group. Then we had 4 other people shot it, again not a single cleaning yet and the worst group of the five shooters was 8" at either the 1100 or 1200 meters. I think there are several people in this thread alone that will take this challenge.
</div></div>WITH factory ammo!!!! This is exactly why I bought my LMT.
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

What weight bullet from a 260 is holding1/3 moa to 900, and 3/4 moa out to 1100 / 1200?


That sounds pretty amazing.
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

Boomfab - I think a sub 1" 10 round group is asking a lot from a ar-10.
Some may be able to do it every once in a while, but I'd like to see it done on demand.
The barrel just heats up and starts to warp, throw's everything off.

For me, 5 rounds groups the way to go. With plenty of time to cool back down between strings.
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tomcat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What weight bullet from a 260 is holding1/3 moa to 900, and 3/4 moa out to 1100 / 1200?


That sounds pretty amazing.

</div></div>

Factory HSM 123g Lapuas.
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

My buddy's Les Baer came with a 5x5 test target, all 5 groups were better than 1/2 moa.
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: captain zeke</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gap 10 260 10 shot group
4c66c84f.jpg
</div></div>


Nice. Very nice.


This is why I'm in no rush to put together a bolt rifle.
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

LAR-8 Standard Operator 20", 10 shot, Sub-MOA with 175 gr. Federal Gold Medal Match:
10shotB5-13-12.jpg

10shotA5-13-12.jpg


The horizontal stringing in the first picture is me learning to shoot with a bipod. I think this gun will get sub-.5 MOA as I get better. The premium rifles, I'd expect minimum .5 MOA, especially with reloads. I'd speak with the manufacturer....Good luck sir...
 
Re: Expected 10-shot group size for premium AR-10?

My department has a GAP AR10 built on a DPMS receiver, Bartelin 18" bbl, badger forearm, YHM suppressor. Optic is a 1-4x24 Meopta Kdot. This is not a sniper rifle, but a .308 "patrol rifle". We had a tactical team and snipers. Budget cuts cost us our team. Since all officers are patrol rifle qualified, having a .308 AR platform rifle in our inventory made sense. We've had problems w/ hornady TAP in this rifle. Hornady TAP Barrier was blowing primers left and right. Hornady 168gr AMAx was better, but we were still getting the occasional blown primer. Blown primers were the result of the pressure associated w/ the suppressor on a gas gun. The AMAX was a laser, but I wasn't comfortable with the primer issue. Had one primer lodge under JP trigger and lock up the trigger. I contacted Federal and got samples of their 168gr BTHP match, 165gr bonded and 168gr bonded top. Shot 10 shot groups yesterday at 100 yards. Groups measured as follows- 168gr match 1.25", 165gr bonded 2.5" and 168gr bonded tip was also 2.5". Again this was w/ a 4x optic that has a 2moa dot reticle. No blown primers. We run a 50 yard zero, same as our 5.56 patrol rifles. I know the bonded is not a match round, but just wasn't happy w/ the group size. Hope this helps.
Nick-
 
I had the same problem and tried everything imaginable. I finally settled on 42.5 H4895, 210M primer, Hornady case, 2.750 OAL. I shot this .622 using my S&W M&P10 with an 18” factory barrel and Timney single stage drop in trigger. I shot every combo imaginable and averaged 1.5 or larger until I worked up this load. I have shot a similar size group with 165 SGK‘s. This gun is VERY finicky!
 

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I'm not going to say the name of the maker as it'll just make a huge shitstorm.

I figure I'm stuck with the gun. Even if I survived the maker's verbal berating of saying it wasn't accurate, they'd knock out a 3-shot group and call me an idiot.
Click to expand...

Sounds to me like this gun! Could be Made in Texas??
 
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