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Suppressors NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???

Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: normbal</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He may be a great guy, in fact I'm sure he is.

My point is he sees things through an attorneys eyes. Attorneys want you to use an attorney to get a legal opinion on how to wipe your ass these days. Everything to an attorney requires an attorney. They have succeeded in making this such a litigious society that you can't escape it.

I love it when people say everyone's hates an attorney until they need one......except most of the time you only need one because of another attorney!!

In any case, I'm not insulting him personally. I'm a prior law enforcement officer turned business owner and Ive known quite a few attorneys in my day.....even some I wouldn't want to see at the bottom of the Atlantic.

Just as a profession I tend to take everything they say with a grain of salt.

So back to my question, <span style="font-weight: bold">can any legal type here point to a specific case where a persons trust was found invalid and after which the ATF either seized the property or imprisoned the trustee</span>?

Until such time I maintain that any other claim is hyperbole and legal bluster and fear tactics. If I file a proper trust, don't lie or falsify anything, the ATF approves it, I'm not going to jail......regardless of what an attorney says.</div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">THAT is the big question</span>. There are several attorneys who post over on MDshooters.com, one name of Rusty Shackleford, who INSIST this has happened, but never give specifics. They all want your money. See thread here: http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=7074 Contains full text of trust and link to PDF file (formatted for legal size paper).

As a medical doctor, I have my own reasons to mistrust liars. Ahem, LAWyers. (Same thing, different pronunciation) If it were up to lawyers, it would be illegal to buy bandaids and merthiolate for booboos.

I've run three cans through BATFe using a boiler-plate trust with NFA-specific language. My investment partner/lawyer friend says it's legit.

Why pay another $600 for a standard form trust that any first-year law student can (and probably did) cobble together. If NFA branch decides your trust is invalid, for whatever reason, unless your name is Spielberg or Gates, you will not be able to buy enough legal care to get justice (i.e. - keep your ass out of federal prison). ATF lawyers suck at the public teat, their bounty is endless and they work for the DOJ. There isn't, so far as I know, any legal malpractice insurance, or attorneys who sue other attorneys when they malpractice law. If a lawyer fucks up your paperwork, he's not going to take the heat and pay your fines for you.
</div></div>

Here you go:

http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2009/05/batfe-seeks-to-seize-nfa-firea.html
 
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RacingMars</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing that is nice about this "do it yourself" document is that it seems like it is specifically oriented to NFA Trusts (unlike other do-it-yourself Living Trust products such as WillMaker or other downloadable forms).

As it seems to be a common approach to have an out-of-state lawyer who is familiar with NFA draft the trust, then have an in-state lawyer review for applicability to local trust law, perhaps this do-it-yourself approach can save you some money by using the form to draft your NFA trust, then only pay one lawyer for your in-state review. Just a guess on my part. </div></div>

Do you want to trust that "do it yourself" document vs. 10 years in federal prison for one of multiple violations they could get you on? It's just not worth the risk. </div></div>

How can you get 10 years over a trust they approved?

A friend of mine provided me his trust to use as a template. I compared it to other online samples I have reviewed and it was basically just a Quicken trust which was given to him by his friend and Class III dealer.....one of the biggest machine gun dealers and private collectors in the country. Rather than spend 2 days typing out the whole thing I just bought a copy of Quicken and used his trust as a guide. So far I have gotten back two suppressors approved on the trust by Agent Al Lamberger.

So if the agents reviews it and approves it and I havent provided any false or misleading info....how can I catch a 10 year prison sentence? </div></div>
It's not much of an issue if you live alone I suppose. But, if you live or shoot with someone else, not setting up your trust right could get you in trouble, even if it is approved.
A NFA item must be controlled by a person on the Trust at all times. A transfer is technically having the item outside of your control.
So, say you like to keep a silencer on a pistol for home defense in a unlocked night stand next to your bed. If you leave the house and anyone else is there that constitutes an illegal transfer of an NFA item. Same thing with shooting, go to the range with a silencer, leave the silencer with a friend or family member not on the Trust properly while you go take a leak...transfer of an NFA item.
I didn't look in to the "DIY" Trusts simply because saving $300 wasn't worth the risk or hassle to me so I am not sure they by default to set it up so that <span style="text-decoration: underline">only you</span> can add or remove items to the Trust, so that in case of a divorce the ex can't take your $30k machine gun to the pawn shop and sell it for $500 or in the event of a death set themselves up so the items are transferred without issue to the person you want them to go to while still allowing people to be on the Trust and use the items.
Seriously,
Getting in to NFA items and then trying to save $300 by skimping on something so critical seems silly to me.
This is just my opinion but being cheap isn't always worth it. If $300 was going to stretch my budget that tight, I'd probably find a cheaper hobby.
 
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If everyone is getting an easy LEO sign off why do you want the trust?
confused.gif
</div></div>


MANY reasons:

-Trustees can be in possession, even in/on their property, even if the Settlor is away(as long as the proper documents are with the NFA items)
-Trustees can be in possession after the Settlor has passed away, and Beneficiaries under 18 can have Trustees be in possession until they are of legal age. At the age of 18, the beneficiaries can then take legal possession with no additional transfer documents, tax stamps, etc.
-Trustees can be added & taken off
-Beneficiaries can be added & taken off
-The Trust owns the NFA items, not the person

These are just SOME of the benefits of an NFA Trust, on top of these:

-MANY CLEO's will NOT sign Form 1s or Form 4s (Harris County Sheriff(Houston, TX) has been reported to refuse to sign. I've heard reports that one has to make repeated efforts after being turned down before Harris County Sheriff will sign off) Keep in mind, this is in TEXAS, not NY, Kali, Mass, or other anti-NFA regimes.
-No fingerprints
-No passport photos

Without a trust, anyone in possession of NFA items after the NFA owner has died is illegally in possession of NFA items. I have no idea, but I assume the ATF would have access to the property to confiscate the NFA items. This again is an assumption, but is quite feasable.


Want a NFA Trust yet?........
 
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: normbal</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He may be a great guy, in fact I'm sure he is.

My point is he sees things through an attorneys eyes. Attorneys want you to use an attorney to get a legal opinion on how to wipe your ass these days. Everything to an attorney requires an attorney. They have succeeded in making this such a litigious society that you can't escape it.

I love it when people say everyone's hates an attorney until they need one......except most of the time you only need one because of another attorney!!

In any case, I'm not insulting him personally. I'm a prior law enforcement officer turned business owner and Ive known quite a few attorneys in my day.....even some I wouldn't want to see at the bottom of the Atlantic.

Just as a profession I tend to take everything they say with a grain of salt.

So back to my question, <span style="font-weight: bold">can any legal type here point to a specific case where a persons trust was found invalid and after which the ATF either seized the property or imprisoned the trustee</span>?

Until such time I maintain that any other claim is hyperbole and legal bluster and fear tactics. If I file a proper trust, don't lie or falsify anything, the ATF approves it, I'm not going to jail......regardless of what an attorney says.</div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">THAT is the big question</span>. There are several attorneys who post over on MDshooters.com, one name of Rusty Shackleford, who INSIST this has happened, but never give specifics. They all want your money. See thread here: http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=7074 Contains full text of trust and link to PDF file (formatted for legal size paper).

As a medical doctor, I have my own reasons to mistrust liars. Ahem, LAWyers. (Same thing, different pronunciation) If it were up to lawyers, it would be illegal to buy bandaids and merthiolate for booboos.

I've run three cans through BATFe using a boiler-plate trust with NFA-specific language. My investment partner/lawyer friend says it's legit.

Why pay another $600 for a standard form trust that any first-year law student can (and probably did) cobble together. If NFA branch decides your trust is invalid, for whatever reason, unless your name is Spielberg or Gates, you will not be able to buy enough legal care to get justice (i.e. - keep your ass out of federal prison). ATF lawyers suck at the public teat, their bounty is endless and they work for the DOJ. There isn't, so far as I know, any legal malpractice insurance, or attorneys who sue other attorneys when they malpractice law. If a lawyer fucks up your paperwork, he's not going to take the heat and pay your fines for you.
</div></div>

Here you go:

http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2009/05/batfe-seeks-to-seize-nfa-firea.html </div></div>

Note: At this time the link to the subguns has been taken down because of questions. We believe this posting is authentic based upon correspondence with the individual but will update this post as the situation and our agreement with the individual (if any) allows.

Havent seen any update as to if this is true or not ...... and it says there are 2 cases but only talk about one and say nothing on the other .... it is says that they BELIEVE that it is authentic, not that it is truely authentic.

Seems like everything was dropped in that case and there has been nothing else reported .... even though they wanted to keep everything on the hush hush .......
 
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???

I know the reasons...... I'm just asking an open ended question. I have a trust.
 
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Is there's no appeal prior to destruction or can an Attorney revise an invalid trust making it valid again and enable the possessor to retain the NFA item? </div></div>

To my knowledge, this is acceptable. I believe invalid trust Settlors are allowed an oppurtunity to revise and re-submit. However, I'm not aware that the ATF will tell you what you did wrong; simply, "This will not do". You then have to figure out what is wrong, and fix it yourself, or go back to square 1 and hire an attourney......wiping out what you just saved by using quicken......


By the way, the possessor would never take possession before the trust submission is approved. The stamp would never have been issued in the first place, so there would be nothing to revoke. Simply a letter from the ATF saying stamp denied, invalid trust, or something similar.
 
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just want to see evidence of 1 person whose trust was approved, then deemed invalid, and the outcome...

I personally think this is just a bunch of chicken shits being paranoid. </div></div>


A trust won't be approved, then disapproved. Before a stamp is issued, they will either approve or deny the trust. They HAVE deemed MANY trusts to be invalid, but <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">PRIOR</span></span> to issuing the stamp. Therefore, no NFA item was in possession illegeally in the first place.

I think this may be a case of misscommunication.



.....and by the way, the mood ring on my tin-foil-hat says I AM paranoid......
laugh.gif
 
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charger442</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1) if you go to a CPA and you get audited, you have a person who will have to defend that and you because they did the work. make sense?
</div></div>

1998, had a HIGHLY recommended CPA (from all my best doctor friends) fuck up our taxes big time. Thousands of dollars owed, thousands of dollars in FINES. He told us "I'm not obligated to pay my clients' tax liabilities." And refused phone calls, certified letters, and a note from my attorney at the time. He told me through one of those friends it wasn't his responsibility and I'd have to sue him. My lawyer said I could sue him, but after court costs, the ATTORNEY fees would be more than what I could hope to recover.

SOB is still in practice 15 years later.

No, CPAs, like lawyers, are like the dwarves in Narnia, they're for themselves.
 
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???

[/quote]

Here you go:

http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2009/05/batfe-seeks-to-seize-nfa-firea.html[/quote]

Yeah, I've seen that. It's from three years ago. There is NO other data available on that. As a matter of CRIMINAL law, not privileged tax issue, there would be a case number and findings, and so on. Come on, if you're an attorney you'd have parsed this and not posted it.

It's a scare tactic to draw in business.
 
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: normbal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Charger442 said:
1) if you go to a CPA and you get audited, you have a person who will have to defend that and you because they did the work. make sense?
</div></div>


It's just like health insurance Charger. If you've read, EVERY policy states that the person is still responsible for their health costs, whether the item is covered or not. Meaning, no matter what the policy says, YOU are the one responsible for paying the DR./Hospital.

Same applies to CPAs, YOU are still responsible for your taxes, no one else. I think Turbo Tax and H&R Block state in the fine print that they will HELP you with an audit.........

Ignorance is not an excuse for failing to comply with any law, you still broke the law even if you didn't know it.

Edit: I guess if you're in congress and don't pay your taxes, you're golden.
Click to expand...
 
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: normbal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
It's a scare tactic to draw in business. </div></div>


Then by all means DON'T get a trust! Or get your quicken trust and STFU.

There are MANY HELPFUL people here, trying to give SOUND ADVICE. If you don't agree, don't get a trust. But don't Slander those who are trying to help.
 
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kimberseries1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just want to see evidence of 1 person whose trust was approved, then deemed invalid, and the outcome...

I personally think this is just a bunch of chicken shits being paranoid. </div></div>


A trust won't be approved, then disapproved. Before a stamp is issued, they will either approve or deny the trust. They HAVE deemed MANY trusts to be invalid, but <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">PRIOR</span></span> to issuing the stamp. Therefore, no NFA item was in possession illegeally in the first place.

I think this may be a case of misscommunication.



.....and by the way, the mood ring on my tin-foil-hat says I AM paranoid......
laugh.gif
</div></div>


not relevant, people attorney proponents are saying " pay an attorney or your stamp might not get issued" they're saying "pay an attorney or your trust might not be valid, and the ATF will come put you in prison and/or fine you into bankruptcy"

show me a case where someone had a stamp, then their trust was deemed ( or found out to be ) invalid and the ATF seized the NFA item, fined them, put them in prison, or simply sent a letter or an agent saying " it has come to our attention that your trust is invalid, you need to fix it".

I don't care what the ATF did, I want to know out of curiosity, because I suspect the last scenario, but I want to hear of one damn case where the ATF essentially revoked a tax stamp because of an invalid trust ( in actuality they'd state that person XXX in not a party to the trust and therefore cannot be in control of the NFA item )...

but show me one case... just one.... not something someone heard about, but doesn't know details... I want a case #


trusts are fairly simple documents ( in Oklahoma anyway ), here we call the grantor a settlor , these are the people who grant the property to the trust, they are also typically the first trustee. then you need a successor trustee ( this can simply be another full trustee, or someone who is truely a successor, and has no rights until they're needed, this person will take over as trustee if you can no longer administer the trust (death, incapacitation, becoming a prohibited person, etc). then you need a beneficiary, in Oklahoma, the settlor (actually their estate( can be the beneficiary...

so a simple trust can be written in Oklahoma on a napkin, stating that person X grants the property to the trust, for the benefit of person Z, person X will remain in control of the property as long as he is able, as the trustee. if he is no longer able for ANY reason, person Y is the successor trustee and will take control of the property for the benefit of person Z, all subject to applicable law... persons X and Y sign in front of a notary, it is filed w/ the court clerk, it's a legal trust.

where is gets complicated is(for NFA purposes) when people want to add 50 trustees, or in any other way operate outside the spirit of the law, people are essentially looking for a loophole.
as long as you want a trust for the purpose it was dreamed up for, to hold property, while still giving the grantor access, until such time as the grantor no longer has a use for said property, then pass the property onto a beneficiary, a trust is simple.

another issue, and even the lawyers argue about this, is who actually has access to the NFA items... easy answer, the grantor/trustee... probably any full trustee, but probably not the successor trustee ( at least until the main trustees are incapable ), and probably not the beneficiary...

people say "what, not the beneficiary?"... yes, not the beneficiary, because by the time they are benefiting, the grantor/trustees are not, therefore a simple trust has dissolved and the NFA item needs to be transferred (much like when a person who owes it privately dies), it's theoretically a tax free transfer, but the trust needs to be written just right... also a good trust can be written so that it never really "dies" ( remember, they're Revocable Living Trusts, they live and own property in the eyes of the law ).

so do you needs a lawyer?

depends, how smart/motivated are you personally to do the work?

what are your state laws?

how complicated do you want the trust? ( what loopholes do you want it to jump through )

DISCLAIMER: this is not legal advise, just my PERSONAL opinion
 
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kimberseries1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just want to see evidence of 1 person whose trust was approved, then deemed invalid, and the outcome...

I personally think this is just a bunch of chicken shits being paranoid. </div></div>


A trust won't be approved, then disapproved. Before a stamp is issued, they will either approve or deny the trust. They HAVE deemed MANY trusts to be invalid, but <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">PRIOR</span></span> to issuing the stamp. Therefore, no NFA item was in possession illegeally in the first place.

I think this may be a case of misscommunication.



.....and by the way, the mood ring on my tin-foil-hat says I AM paranoid......
laugh.gif
</div></div>


not relevant, people attorney proponents are saying " pay an attorney or your stamp might not get issued" they're saying "<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">pay an attorney or your trust might not be valid,</span></span> and the ATF will come put you in prison and/or fine you into bankruptcy"

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #CC0000">Highlighted & Underlined part is true. "Might" is the key word.</span></span>


show me a case where someone had a stamp, then their trust was deemed ( or found out to be ) invalid and the ATF seized the NFA item, fined them, put them in prison, or simply sent a letter or an agent saying " it has come to our attention that your trust is invalid, you need to fix it".

I don't care what the ATF did, I want to know out of curiosity, because I suspect the last scenario, but I want to hear of one damn case where the ATF essentially revoked a tax stamp because of an invalid trust

<span style="color: #990000"><span style="font-weight: bold">Possible if Trust is approved for Stamp A. Trust is amended improperly. Trust is Denied for Stamp B. I would assume that this could in theory be a plausible scenario. However, logically, if the ATF approved Stamp A, and denied Stamp B, they would not send stormtroopers to confiscate and destroy NFA item for Stamp A.</span></span>
( in actuality they'd state that person XXX in not a party to the trust and therefore cannot be in control of the NFA item )...

but show me one case... just one.... not something someone heard about, but doesn't know details... I want a case #

<span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">I have never stated this has happened.</span></span>



trusts are fairly simple documents

<span style="font-weight: bold"> </span> <span style="color: #CC0000">True & Not True. One wrong word as simple as a 3 or 4 letter word can mean the difference between valid & invalid. I'm not going to dig the 'net for case numbers. This is why lawyers go to law school, and this is why the average American cannot understand even simple ballot initiatives because it is in "Lawyer Talk". It is not as simple as grantor, settlor, trustee.</span>

( in Oklahoma anyway ), here we call the grantor a settlor , these are the people who grant the property to the trust, they are also typically the first trustee. then you need a successor trustee ( this can simply be another full trustee, or someone who is truely a successor, and has no rights until they're needed, this person will take over as trustee if you can no longer administer the trust (death, incapacitation, becoming a prohibited person, etc). then you need a beneficiary, in Oklahoma, the settlor (actually their estate( can be the beneficiary...

<span style="color: #CC0000">[color:#990000]<span style="font-weight: bold">The Trust is <span style="text-decoration: underline">similar</span> in Texas, but then again, there are stark differences, even in these 2 Very Conservative neighbors.</span></span>[/color]



so a simple trust can be written in Oklahoma on a napkin,



<span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">If that's what you want to submit to the ATF, by all means go for it. You can indict a cheese sandwich, but good luck with a conviction.</span></span>


stating that person X grants the property to the trust, for the benefit of person Z, person X will remain in control of the property as long as he is able, as the trustee. if he is no longer able for ANY reason, person Y is the successor trustee and will take control of the property for the benefit of person Z, all subject to applicable law... persons X and Y sign in front of a notary, it is filed w/ the court clerk, it's a legal trust.


<span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">I'm not going to get into the nitty gritty, I'm not an NFA Trust attorney. If you want to split legal hairs, someone else will have to do that with you.</span></span>


where is gets complicated is(for NFA purposes) when people want to add 50 trustees, or in any other way operate outside the spirit of the law, people are essentially looking for a loophole.


<span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">I <span style="text-decoration: underline">seriously</span> doubt that is what we are debating here!</span></span>


as long as you want a trust for the purpose it was dreamed up for, to hold property, while still giving the grantor access, until such time as the grantor no longer has a use for said property, then pass the property onto a beneficiary, a trust is simple.


<span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">Yes, a trust is simple. No, a NFA Trust is NOT simple. My NFA Trust is for NFA items only. I want a trust to own land, and my NFA Trust attorney said, "Let's get another trust for that one." So at his word, an NFA Trust is NOT like a simple trust. I will not regurgitate all 50 pages of legal mumbo-jumbo so that we can "sword fight" with our trusts.</span></span>


another issue, and even the lawyers argue about this, is who actually has access to the NFA items... easy answer, the grantor/trustee... probably any full trustee, but probably not the successor trustee ( at least until the main trustees are incapable ), and probably not the beneficiary...

<span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">AFAIK, there is NO disagreement on this. The NFA Trust SPECIFICALLY States EXACTLY who has access to the NFA items. That is the whole point of the NFA Trust, or at least MY whole point.</span></span>


people say "what, not the beneficiary?"... yes, not the beneficiary, because by the time they are benefiting, the grantor/trustees are not, therefore a simple trust has dissolved and the NFA item needs to be transferred (much like when a person who owes it privately dies), it's theoretically a tax free transfer, but the trust needs to be written just right...


<span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">I'm pretty sure this is WAY off base. The Beneficiary is the "heir" to the Settlor. At least that is the point of MY trust.</span></span>



also a good trust can be written so that it never really "dies" ( remember, they're Revocable Living Trusts, they live and own property in the eyes of the law ).


<span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">Thank you for making my point. That is the whole point. Do you trust quicken is a "good trust".</span></span>



so do you needs a lawyer?

depends, how smart/motivated are you personally to do the work?

what are your state laws?

how complicated do you want the trust? ( what loopholes do you want it to jump through )

DISCLAIMER: this is not legal advise, just my PERSONAL opinion

</div></div>


<span style="font-weight: bold"> </span>
 
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here you go:

http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2009/05/batfe-seeks-to-seize-nfa-firea.html </div></div>

KY you don't find it odd they give ZERO details other than the name of the person and the weapon? They don't even say which one of the Attorneys helped him but just that they were "resolved by a Gun Trust Lawyer®". They then followed it up with a story that allegedly "<span style="font-style: italic">The BATFE and individual have requested that the details not be disclosed. The BATFE does not want to jeopardize similar ongoing investigations involving invalid trusts.</span>" Why would they not be able to discuss a closed case? And if there are so many other "ongoing investigations" why haven't we heard anything from anyone else other than the "NFA Lawyer" websites? It's a big sales pitch man. It's like every other salesperson that just so happens to know a person who had this happen to them so you should by the extra deluxe premium package with a warranty to protect your family and loved ones blah blah blah...

I googled "Joshua Prince NFA" and everything that comes up points back to a Prince Law Offices blog that doesn't exist anymore and all reference the same NFA Trust Lawyer sites. Anytime something happens in our world it gets blogged about but amazingly enough all the details of this event are nowhere to be found?
 
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???

I didnt say it was for fact. They said "show me one instance of this happening". So I found em one..... Why risk this happening to you? Is it worth it to spend $30.00 now for quicken or $300.00 knowing you have legal aid till the day you die AND then for your family after you are gone?

Sounds pretty clear to me.
 
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???

Im just splitting hairs FM..... they are examples. Please stop taking everything to literally.
 
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I didnt say it was for fact. They said "show me one instance of this happening". So I found em one..... Why risk this happening to you? Is it worth it to spend $30.00 now for quicken or $300.00 knowing you have legal aid till the day you die AND then for your family after you are gone?

Sounds pretty clear to me. </div></div>

Your text seemed like you were implying it, but it's text on a screen and you and I both know that people read into shit. I just don't think it's a valid instance from a creditable source. I don't disagree with the Attorney review though for insuring it's a valid trust in whatever State a persons in. It's like insurance...
 
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???

please take things literally... I want a case #


because I can theorize that more people have wasted money on a shitty lawyer, who did a shitty trust, then refused to fix it... than have been out anything substantial by writing their own trust ( quicken, legalzoom, etc, etc or truly writing it themselves )

the ATF does NOT kick in your door and haul you away over simple mistakes...

now if you make a mistake while trying to get around shit ( ie 50 "trustees", a prohibited person as a trustee, etc, etc ), then they'll fry you. you might have wanted to consult an attorney BEFORE you did such stupid shit.

if you don't know anything about NFA other than you want the cool shit, you might want to consult an attorney.

if you're investing $25,000+ in a machine gun, or have an extensive NFA collection, you might want to consult an attorney.

but the average guy asking if he can write his own wants a damn can, that's maybe $1200, so you guys want him to pay 1/2 the purchase price for an attorney to write the trust, when said attorney could be even more retarded than the guy about the shit... really?

now I will say that generally speaking... IF you're asking on the internet "do I need a gunsmith/lawyer"... the answer is HELL YES!!! stop whatever you are doing and move your retarded ass away from it.

but Sendero_Man is NOT retarded.... he can figure this out, IF he wants to put in the work.
 
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???

Ive been communicating with SM via private messages. Why are you guys so hell bent on him writing his own trust. Legal speak and written word is not easy. You sure as hell dont want to get wrapped up in it for the WRONG reasons, being you fucked up your trust wording and now you face legal actions.

Why take the RISK?! Will it ever come to light? Will the ATF ever come question you about your items? Probably not, I'll take that peace of mind though. Legal aid never hurts either.
 
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???

I'm NOT set on him writing it... I'm saying he CAN, if he chooses or can't find an attorney that he trusts....


why are YOU so hell bent on him NOT writing it?


and understand...even if a lawyer writes it... it's still a RISK, the lawyer may very well be retarded, he may very well screw you, he will not do time for you or pay your fines...


I personally don't choose to pay someone I KNOW will not be of any help... I made that mistake w/ a CPA once (actually my wife did while I was deployed, but I still had the penalties and all the hassle of amending it)...

understand... "I didn't know, I paid a lawyer", is no more of a defense than "sorry, I guess I should have paid a lawyer"... in either, they'll either fry you, or tell your dumb ass to fix it... and either will require more $$$ to a lawyer
 
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">because I can theorize that more people have wasted money on a shitty lawyer, who did a shitty trust, then refused to fix it... than have been out anything substantial by writing their own trust ( quicken, legalzoom, etc, etc or truly writing it themselves )


<span style="color: #CC0000">Really? Tell that to the people who used Legalzoom to <span style="text-decoration: underline">apply</span> for NFA Items and the <span style="text-decoration: underline">Trust</span> was denied. This is a total different argument than trusts being approved then denied then stormtroopers come. There ARE cases of Trusts that are denied. Google for yourself, I won't do your searching for you. I did MY searching before I got my trust, and I saw the info for myself. this is NOT cases of Stamps being REVOKED. These are cases of Trusts denied BEFORE Stamps were issued. There are 2 different discussions here.

And by the way, you can read my earlier post where I said find an NFA Trust Attorney, <span style="text-decoration: underline">not just some attorney</span>. Most attorneys have no f'in clue what an NFA Trust even is!!!!
</span>




the ATF does NOT kick in your door and haul you away over simple mistakes...


<span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">But they have the Authority to do so. They CAN make mountains out of molehills if they WANT to. Doesn't mean they do. They are having MANY problems since "Fast & Furious/Gunwalker", and they know the coming changing political environment will be much more conservative. If the current gestapo administration were allowed to fester however......</span></span>


now if you make a mistake while trying to get around shit ( ie 50 "trustees", a prohibited person as a trustee, etc, etc ), then they'll fry you. you might have wanted to consult an attorney BEFORE you did such stupid shit.


<span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">This is a Red Herring. Do you want me to tell you again that this is NOT THE argument for a Trust?</span></span>


if you don't know anything about NFA other than you want the cool shit, you might want to consult an attorney.


<span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">Yup, that's what this is all about. You are the high and mighty ruler of all things NFA, and you decide who "wants the cool shit" and who "actually needs the cool shit".</span></span>


if you're investing $25,000+ in a machine gun, or have an extensive NFA collection, you might want to consult an attorney.


<span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">I'd imagine, just a hunch, if someone has the bread for a $25K machinegun, they probably have several attorneys on retainer, or at least 1. Or own a law firm.....</span></span>


but the average guy asking if he can write his own wants a damn can, that's maybe $1200, so you guys want him to pay 1/2 the purchase price for an attorney to write the trust, when said attorney could be even more retarded than the guy about the shit... really?


<span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">Who the Fuck WANTS him to???? I don't give a rat's turdy ass what people do. I'm trying to give sound advice to people who want it. If you want to spend hours and hours and hours researching <span style="text-decoration: underline">exactly</span> how to construct a legal document, have at it. If you trust a $30 program to protect your $1200 Investment, have at it.</span></span>



now I will say that generally speaking... IF you're asking on the internet "do I need a gunsmith/lawyer"... the answer is HELL YES!!! stop whatever you are doing and move your retarded ass away from it.

but Sendero_Man is NOT retarded.... he can figure this out, IF he wants to put in the work.


<span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">You're right, the NFA Act does specifically state, "Attorney written NFA Trusts are allowed for the <span style="text-decoration: underline">Retards</span> to own machineguns and suppressors."</span></span>
</div></div>



Now you can climb back onto your High Horse and look down your nose at us "lowly retards". Have fun with your Trust Napkin!!
 
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???

I don't care about trusts being denied... you're not losing anything substantial ( for example, time in prison, an NFA item being seized, etc) you're simply out a little hassle redoing a trust...

and kimbersseries1... I'm really not even talking to you... you're twisting this conversation all out of whack ( I think ), the Op's question ( as I read it ) was basically.... I can't find an NFA attorney, can I use quicken to write a legal trust...


the simple answer is YES, if you want to invest the time and energy, you certainly CAN.

I went further and said the he didn't even need quicken...

and a BUNCH of people, whom I like and respect WAY more than YOU, said "don't do it man, you could go to jail"... those are the people I'm debating with... not your retarded ass that thinks everyone who owns a machine gun is rich, or that getting a form 4 denied, and having to resubmit something is a big deal.
 
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm NOT set on him writing it... I'm saying he CAN, if he chooses or can't find an attorney that he trusts....


<span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">I'm NOT saying he CAN'T. I'm NOT saying "stormtroopers will burn your house down" if he writes his own. There ARE cases of Legalzoom trusts being DENIED. I don't know specifically of quicken, however, I would NOT <span style="text-decoration: underline">recommend</span> either for this level of legal document. You can clearly see the differences of our 2 trusts: 1 OK, 1 TX. If there is NO NFA Trust lawyer in WO, copying someone's trust from OK is NOT something I want to rely on. It could very well be a turd floating in the ATF's punchbowl.

I'll use your own argument. Why WASTE $200 on a MONEY ORDER for a stamp for it to be denied? Forget the $300-$400 on a trust, you've just WASTED $200 on a stamp. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they don't return the M.O. do they?</span></span>


why are YOU so hell bent on him NOT writing it?


<span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">I never said I was! I also never told anyone NOT to write their own. I stated logically the benefits for a NFA Trust. I also stated logically the downside to writing your own. Some HAVE been denied. Maybe you have me confused with someone else you were arguing with.</span></span>


and understand...even if a lawyer writes it... it's still a RISK, the lawyer may very well be retarded, he may very well screw you, he will not do time for you or pay your fines...


<span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">Exactly why I stated find a <span style="text-decoration: underline">NFA Trust Attorney</span>.</span></span>

I personally don't choose to pay someone I KNOW will not be of any help... I made that mistake w/ a CPA once (actually my wife did while I was deployed, but I still had the penalties and all the hassle of amending it)...


<span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">Should I call you a retard for calling a CPA? Why couldn't you do your own taxes retard? I will refer, once again, to my statement of finding an <span style="text-decoration: underline">NFA Trust Attorney.[/</span>b]</span>



<span style="color: #000000">understand... "I didn't know, I paid a lawyer", is no more of a defense than "sorry, I guess I should have paid a lawyer"... in either, they'll either fry you, or tell your dumb ass to fix it... and either will require more $$$ to a lawyer</span></span>

<span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">If I could write NFA Trusts, I'd be an NFA Trust Attorney. If you can, awesome for you, have a Gold Star. Would you like a cookie and an "Atta Boy"? Maybe I want to sleep easy at night. Maybe I'd like to spend my time ENJOYING MY NFA ITEMS instead of researching how to construct a legal document for the ATF. Maybe I'd like my TRUSTEES to not have to worry as well. Would you like my 100 point bulliten of ALL the reasons for an NFA Trust????? I would think the SHORT list would be reasonable enough. I would rather see people only have to wait ONCE for their stamp, not 2 or 3 times because their "Shadetree Trust" was denied several times.</span></span>

</div></div>
 
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't care about trusts being denied... you're not losing anything substantial ( for example, time in prison, an NFA item being seized, etc) you're simply out a little hassle redoing a trust...

and kimbersseries1... I'm really not even talking to you... you're twisting this conversation all out of whack ( I think ), the Op's question ( as I read it ) was basically.... I can't find an NFA attorney, can I use quicken to write a legal trust...


<span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">I actually think you are the one blowing this out of porportion. You stated people who get NFA Trusts are "retards" who can't "write their own" cause they "want cool shit".

Sendero stated he couldn't FIND an NFA Trust Attorney in WO. guntrustlawyer.com or whatever can help him FIND an attorney in WO who IS familiar with NFA Trusts. I would imagine since WO is sparsely populated, an attorney who SPECIALIZES in NFA Trusts ONLY <span style="font-style: italic">will</span> be hard to find. However, I'm sure out of the whole state, there is at least 1 attorney who is familiar with NFA Trusts and has written some. He/she would probably have to work in other areas of the law as well, simply because of population density.


Whether you're talking to me or not, I am rebutting your statements about NFA Trusts, whether those you ARE talking to rebutt or not.
</span></span>


the simple answer is YES, if you want to invest the time and energy, you certainly CAN.


<span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">Yes, I CAN construct a rocket in my backyard. Is it WISE to do so? I would rather have the rocket-scientist construct the rocket for me.</span></span>


I went further and said the he didn't even need quicken...

and a BUNCH of people, whom I like and respect WAY more than YOU, said "don't do it man, you could go to jail"... those are the people I'm debating with... not your retarded ass that thinks everyone who owns a machine gun is rich, or that getting a form 4 denied, and having to resubmit something is a big deal.

<span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">
OK, since the glove is off.......

I guess your definitions of rich are different than mine. I did see a homeless guy under a bridge with a "Ma Deuce" though. Probably bought 'em with his food stamps after writing his own trust.

If you have $25,000 at your disposal AS YOU STATED, for a machinegun, then YOU, SIR, ARE A RICH MOTHERFUCKER.

And yes, if I waited 4-6 months for my suppressor to be approved, find out it's not, re-submit, wait another 4-6 months, still may or may not be right cause I used a $30 program or copied someone's in another state, am I better off? Yes, I saved a WHOPPING $400 on a lawyer, but I'm waiting 4-6 EXTRA months. Why would I want that???? For that extra 4-6 months of wait time, one could hire a couple attorneys.........</span></span></div></div>



And by the way, I give a Fuck what you think about me!!!! Or if you respect me!!!! After seeing your last 2 pages of posts, hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

You mean people respect you???????
 
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm NOT set on him writing it... I'm saying he CAN, if he chooses or can't find an attorney that he trusts....


why are YOU so hell bent on him NOT writing it?


and understand...even if a lawyer writes it... it's still a RISK, the lawyer may very well be retarded, he may very well screw you, he will not do time for you or pay your fines...


I personally don't choose to pay someone I KNOW will not be of any help... I made that mistake w/ a CPA once (actually my wife did while I was deployed, but I still had the penalties and all the hassle of amending it)...

understand... "I didn't know, I paid a lawyer", is no more of a defense than "sorry, I guess I should have paid a lawyer"... in either, they'll either fry you, or tell your dumb ass to fix it... and either will require more $$$ to a lawyer

</div></div>

I like this guy. I'd let him do my sister (if she weren't crazy, and you know the rule about doing crazy).

Can't agree more with what he's said.

I've worked with/for lawyers before; they will leave you hanging in a cold heartbeat and quote case law all day while watching you swing. The game is rigged in their favor.

Like the song says, "A man with a briefcase can steal more than a man with a gun."
 
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kimberseries1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: normbal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
It's a scare tactic to draw in business. </div></div>


Then by all means DON'T get a trust! Or get your quicken trust and STFU.

There are MANY HELPFUL people here, trying to give SOUND ADVICE. If you don't agree, don't get a trust. But don't Slander those who are trying to help.

</div></div>

I think if anyone needs to STFU its you.

Sound advice? Sound advice based on who's standard....yours?

You're the expert?

Based on the attorneys advice? These are the very same people that if it were up to them you would have to put one on retainer to take a piss.

I think its very helpful to tell fellow Hide members that an attorney is certainly not needed for a proper, thorough and legal trust to be approved by the ATF.

Those that are trying to help, the ones you are referring to, have either drank the kool aid or are selling the kool aid.


Who died and gave you the right as to who can and cannot lend their opinion on this subject?
 
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???

You're totally right. I apologize for all I said. I'm just a retard dumfuk.

Good luck with your home-made napkin trusts. Attorneys know nothing, ya'll are the greatest Sniper's Hide has to offer, and therefore, the best and brightest in the whole world.

I will delete my account because SH is losing quality as long as my account is active.


I'm just a lowly mall ninja who wants to be like ya'll. Please forgive this lowly mall ninja who has to pay an attorney to write his dumfuk trust for him so he can "have the cool stuff".


Once again, good luck with your home-made napkin trust. I honestly hope it works out for you.
 
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kimberseries1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're totally right. I apologize for all I said. I'm just a retard dumfuk.

Good luck with your home-made napkin trusts. Attorneys know nothing, ya'll are the greatest Sniper's Hide has to offer, and therefore, the best and brightest in the whole world.

I will delete my account because SH is losing quality as long as my account is active.


I'm just a lowly mall ninja who wants to be like ya'll. Please forgive this lowly mall ninja who has to pay an attorney to write his dumfuk trust for him so he can "have the cool stuff".


Once again, good luck with your home-made napkin trust. I honestly hope it works out for you.</div></div>


dipshit, at this point just fuck off... you and the "smoke some weed" guy are just stupid
 
Re: NFA Trust... do it yourself forms... ???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kimberseries1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're totally right. I apologize for all I said. I'm just a retard dumfuk.

I will delete my account because SH is losing quality as long as my account is active.


</div></div>

See, its not that hard to find things we can all agree on.
 
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