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Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Supposed to be new and better? What I dial in my scope doesn't lie
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It IS better. Have you ever run a match or spent a couple days shooting 6.5s next to .308s? Embrace the better mousetrap. You'll thank me later. </div></div>
Been there done that. I'm not arguing ballistic superiority. My arguement is solely the existence of these calibers in tactical events. "Better" to me will never be a reason that makes sense to me. You guys aren't going to convert me on this...likely ever so don't lose too much sleep over it.
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Add barrier penetration and you may see why that old black tipped 30cal round was so well liked for last seventy years.
</div></div>

I know one thing, the only rifle I have that goes through the steel at our range is my 6mm AI shooting 105s @ 3220 fps. The 310 yard target, the .308 barely dents it. My 6.5 puts a noticeable dent in it, and the 6mm goes THROUGH it. As the range exceeds, the .308 falls more on its face and the 6.5 appears to hit the hardest.

Sure, logistically, the .308 is king...if you're an agency guy that has to be supplied. But for me, I'm not some military guy or a cop, nor a wannabe lying in the grass in a ghille for no reason. I'm a shooter. My goal is to shoot as much as I can, have as much fun as I can, and do whatever I can to place bullets where they need to go. For me, my 6.5 is "tactical" in that it helps me accomplish my goal.

Another goal is hunting. I hunt from 100 to 1000 yards. So I "tactically" implement 6.5s and 7mms. Have you ever killed anything at long range? Have you done so with 6.5mms and 7mms? Have you done so with a .308? If you have, you'd understand the 6.5/7mm rounds do a much better job of killing; cleaner, faster.

"Tactical" is the most over-used phrase out there to the point where its starting to sound like "zomebie" crap; becoming a cliche.
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

the "tactical" part i agree with TOTALLY
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

In the sense of 'tactical', meaning to shoot so you hit a target, and thus the target is 'dead' and not you, then marksmanship would really be the true goal, wouldn't it? Given that most of the targets are shaped like people, and both swat/military guys and civilians who are 'preparing for the end of the world', that would basically mean stopping people. I would have to think that either a .243, a .308, or whatever, would still be lethal at 800 yards on a thin-skinned creature like a human, wouldn't it? I'm not going to assume that in an 'end of the world scenario', that all of my 'targets' are going to be wearing body armor. I know I wouldn't want to get hit with any of those rounds, military or not, at 800 yards (or any range for that matter). That being said, could not some of these 'non-military' rounds be used in a tactical situation if need be? Could a shooter successfully 'defend his homestead', or whatever, with something like a .243 shooting the 107gr SMK, or a 6.5x.284 with some lighter but faster bullet? If so, then would not that round be that shooter's "tactical" round? Threads like this, and that one earlier about 'shorty' rifles, has left me wondering which direction to go for my next "tactical" bolt gun. They've been fun to read, but have also left me questioning many of my long-held ideas about what I might 'need'.
 
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Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1kHIT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the sense of 'tactical', meaning to shoot so you hit a target, and thus the target is 'dead' and not you, then marksmanship would really be the true goal, wouldn't it? Given that most of the targets are shaped like people, and both swat/military guys and civilians who are 'preparing for the end of the world', that would basically mean stopping people. I would have to think that either a .243, a .308, or whatever, would still be lethal at 800 yards on a thin-skinned creature like a human, wouldn't it? I'm not going to assume that in an 'end of the world scenario', that all of my 'targets' are going to be wearing body armor. I know I wouldn't want to get hit with any of those rounds, military or not, at 800 yards (or any range for that matter). That being said, could not some of these 'non-military' rounds be used in a tactical situation if need be? Could a shooter successfully 'defend his homestead', or whatever, with something like a .243 shooting the 107gr SMK, or a 6.5x.284 with some lighter but faster bullet? If so, then would not that round be that shooter's "tactical" round? Threads like this, and that one earlier about 'shorty' rifles, has left me wondering which direction to go for my next "tactical" bolt gun. They've been fun to read, but have also left me questioning many of my long-held ideas about what I might 'need'. </div></div>

Man you are openning another 3 page long topic...but seriously you know the answers to your questions above already I hope people are not hard to kill as far as the animal kingdom goes we are one of the weakest on the planet so go in the direction you want to go and build a gun you can shoot well and afford to shoot. forget about who is saying what and the end of the world scenario and do what is best for you...and please drop the word "tactical" already it messing up the thread...LOL
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

yes any round can be a "tactical" round in that aspect. the debate was the "tacitcal" comp rounds versus true NATO or military used rounds. I mean tactically the military uses 5.56 which i think is fucking retarded as a tactical round.

308 is untouchable almost in barrel life, it can reach 1000 easily, ammo accessability for the foreseeable future which are the reasons i will and continue to tell newbs to get a 308 first and worry about your wind cheater later.
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

I would love to see how this ends (it won't) but I have to duck out and get on the road.

I'll be spending the next 3 motherfreakin days at K&M Precision raining ballistically inferior 175gr projectiles at various targets alllll dayyyyy longgggggg for 3 days. Giddythefuckup
grin.gif
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

watch out they fall out of the air at like 600 yards its crazy
wink.gif
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would love to see how this ends (it won't) but I have to duck out and get on the road.

I'll be spending the next 3 motherfreakin days at K&M Precision raining ballistically inferior 175gr projectiles at various targets alllll dayyyyy longgggggg for 3 days. Giddythefuckup
grin.gif
</div></div>

LOL...have fun man!
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">watch out they fout of the air at like 600 yards its crazy
wink.gif
</div></div>. Lol. apparently . maybe I'll get lucky and they'll be somebody there with a 260 or 6.5 to school me (;-)
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Enjoy the three oh gay!
</div></div>

Fail. that round in large part is 1 of the reasons you're still speaking english
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

I believe if a shooter wants to compete on a 308 only playing field there are a couple venues. FTR, and Palma?

No sense getting panties in a knot about what others shoot/win with. If the rules allow it, competitors intent on winning will use it.

As Tactical mentioned, it helps develop the shooting sport and we all gain. Without it we wouldn't have all the nice VLDs, the 6.5Creed and other chamberings, optics, stocks, bipods, web gear....you get the idea.
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

I think the simple answer to the question at hand is YES, the 308 is outclassed. Not to say it can't win. Hell, the GT1 Le Mans corvette won 24hr of Le Mans OUTRIGHT one year, and the P1 and P2 cars easily outclass the GT1.

Now the question is if it's unfair to allow the higher performance cartridges.

I don't think it is unfair. In general, the cream rises to the top anyway. It takes a hell of a marksman to win/place/show at a big match. That marksman will likely win with nearly any cartridge. Case in point: Mammoth was won this year by a pair of 308s, by fellas from the AMU team. Great marksmenship.

I think it is appropriate to give public accolades to "best 308", or give an extra prize for winning outright with one in a field full of 6.5s, 7s and high capacity 30s.

That said, when I show up with a 308 and get narrowly beaten by folks with high performance cartridges, I don't feel bad at all. Everyone there knows whats up when someone with a 7WSM beats a 308 by one point/hit...

However, if you're serious about the hobby/sport, you're ONLY going to bring a 308 if you HAVE to, or just want to show everyone how badass you are (like AMU @ Mammoth).

If you're not serious, and just want to play, why would you care other people have performance cartridges?

If you ARE serious, and you want to win, why WOULD you use a 308?
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We all gain. New powders and bullets give the 308 longer legs too.


PC140003.jpg
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not trying to be a jerk here but this just seems silly to me... although cool to see such a big bullet in a little case haha I just don't get pushing a 225grn out of a 308...what speeds are you getting? you would be better off pushing the 178s with more velocity.

Hell the bullet is bigger then the case LOL...if you want to shoot 225grn bullets and get the true advantage out of them you need to shoot a 300WSM/300winmag or bigger...

sorry don't see the advantage in that move becuase you just can't push them fast enough to be anymore effective then the 178 to 190 grian bullet.

 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TeamSendIt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but i would be curious to see how a 28" 308 barrel with 155s would do side by side with my 28" 243 barrel. I think its only fair to compare apples to apples since most 243 shooters use at least a 26" barrel


</div></div>Running the numbers after you posed the question, the 243 still has a monstrous advantage. I ran the numbers for a 155 Scenar at 2950fps (should be about maxed out even with a 28" barrel, but maybe there is another 50 fps there,) and the drop at 1000 is 8.8 mils with 2.6 mils of drift per 10mph of full value wind. Running the numbers for pointed DTACs at 3125 (this is the speed I personally get out of my 28" barrel,) the drop at 1000 is 6.4 mils and 1.6 mils of drift.

Using sea level DA as a standard, which is about average for where i shoot.
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

And another thing:

There is no "laser" cartridge that always requires a simple dead-on hold. I scored a winning shot last weekend at 1050 yards with my 338, which required .7mrad of wind. Had I missed the windcall, I would have missed - even though I had a big/bad 338.

However, it is CERTAINLY more forgiving than a 308! Nonetheless, anyone that thinks all you need is a 7WSM or similar to win, place or show is either stupid, ignorant, or delusional.
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 25MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We all gain. New powders and bullets give the 308 longer legs too.


PC140003.jpg
</div></div>

this just seems silly to me..pushing a 225grn out of a 308...what speeds are you getting? you would be better off pushing the 178s with more velocity.

Hell the bullet is bigger then the case LOL...if you want to shoot 225grn bullets and get the true advantage out of them you need to shoot a 300WSM/300winmag or bigger...

sorry don't see the advantage in that move becuase you just can't push them fast enough to be anymore effective then the 178 to 190 grian bullet.

</div></div>

Silly is somebody from new fucking jersey lecturing a LR shooter from montana about long range shooting.
crazy.gif
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

haha...maybe but pretty sure this is still pretty silly.

 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

Where does it end? HTG a4 or m24 stocks only? Schneider barrels or remington barrels? How about scopes? Rings? Slings? Buttplate spacers and saddle cheeks only--unless its the m24 stock?

Manners stocks ain't allowed in comps anymore...Only S & Bs are 3-12s.

m118 only...no more handloads
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sharfshutze</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 25MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We all gain. New powders and bullets give the 308 longer legs too.


PC140003.jpg
</div></div>

this just seems silly to me..pushing a 225grn out of a 308...what speeds are you getting? you would be better off pushing the 178s with more velocity.

Hell the bullet is bigger then the case LOL...if you want to shoot 225grn bullets and get the true advantage out of them you need to shoot a 300WSM/300winmag or bigger...

sorry don't see the advantage in that move becuase you just can't push them fast enough to be anymore effective then the 178 to 190 grian bullet.

</div></div>

Silly is somebody from new fucking jersey lecturing a LR shooter from montana about long range shooting.
crazy.gif
</div></div>

unless that jersey-boy has 800 yards in his backyard and 1200 yards nearby...
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Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Enjoy the three oh gay!
</div></div>

Fail. that round in large part is 1 of the reasons you're still speaking english </div></div>

Bullshit. It isn't the arrow, its the Indian. My grandfather and great grandfather would have done just fine if not better had we been shooting a 7mm back in the day instead of the .30-06
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Its what lots of guys call it, picked it up from a former Ranger/sniper I know. He's been calling it that ever since I've known him and used to give me a hard time for shooting .308.
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where does it end? HTG a4 or m24 stocks only? Schneider barrels or remington barrels? How about scopes? Rings? Slings? Buttplate spacers and saddle cheeks only--unless its the m24 stock?

Manners stocks ain't allowed in comps anymore...Only S & Bs are 3-12s.

m118 only...no more handloads </div></div>

that is stupid, ignorant and over simplifying for the sake of argument.
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

Thats like a county in NJ. you could probably be sheriff.
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

Really--so the argument that a 6.5 or 6mm gives you an unfair advantage because not used by military is not the same as using a better barrel, better stock, better scope, etc likewise gives you an advantage?

I respectfully disagree with your characteriztion, and can do so without resorting to insult.
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19Scout77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where does it end? HTG a4 or m24 stocks only? Schneider barrels or remington barrels? How about scopes? Rings? Slings? Buttplate spacers and saddle cheeks only--unless its the m24 stock?

Manners stocks ain't allowed in comps anymore...Only S & Bs are 3-12s.

m118 only...no more handloads </div></div>

that is stupid, ignorant and over simplifying for the sake of argument. </div></div>

Well, let's hear it. Why should the rules be amended to only allow a .308?

Answers so far:

Its a NATO round...well similar to the NATO 7.62x51.

Many cops use it.

To "level" the playing field---(but not leveling with scopes, stocks, barrels, slings. bipods, etc.)

So please, tell me, why should it be limited to .308 only. You keep insultingly suggesting nobody gets your argument. GIVE US your argument! Why .308 only? Why emotional attachment to old technology when caliber is concerned, but not the rest of the shooting system?
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

This is a good read and I love all the opinions. I don't want to step on any toes here either and Mike is right in what he said. In the tactical matches guys will do anything to gain an edge including "Rule interpation". I started out shooting tactical matches with the 308 then went to the 260 when it first came out then the 6.5x284s.

The one thing I discovered was that I became a much better wind reader when I started shooting the 260 and I was then amazed at how well my skill got when I went to the 6.5x284s!!! In other words there "Was" an advantage with the flatter shooting, wind bucking calibers for me. But in reality it was just a bandaid to cover up my own lack of skill.

We all hate to admit it but when we miss its not "Usually" the rifles or the rounds fault its the trigger pullers. There is no reason why a shooter who "Really" knows his 308 won't shoot just as well as someone with a better round.

Lets face it, the bullet will go where you shoot it. "If" you have the right dope the 308 will hit at a 1000yds just as well as the 6.5s or the 6MMs. It still comes down to the indian not the bow and arrow.

We don't want to admit it to ourselves but the faster, smaller calibers are a crutch for our lack of wind reading skills, not that I am one of "Those" guys but did I mention I am expermenting with a 6BRX and a 284 too. Pretty soon I will be one hell of a long range shot!!!!!! HA......
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I know one thing, the only rifle I have that goes through the steel at our range is my 6mm AI shooting 105s @ 3220 fps. The 310 yard target, the .308 barely dents it. My 6.5 puts a noticeable dent in it, and the 6mm goes THROUGH it. As the range exceeds, the .308 falls more on its face and the 6.5 appears to hit the hardest. </div></div>

I can attest to this, we had Tyler's 6.5x47, 6mm AI, and my .308 alongside one another on the same day, same targets. The .308 shooting FGMM 168's dinged the steel, 6.5 dented it more, 6mm blew right through.

Go to 700+ yards and the 'cheater' cartridges exhibit some wildly superior terminal ballistics versus the .308, due to all the velocity and energy that's been bled off by the .308 at that point.

-matt
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Add barrier penetration and you may see why that old black tipped 30cal round was so well liked for last seventy years.
</div></div>

I know one thing, the only rifle I have that goes through the steel at our range is my 6mm AI shooting 105s @ 3220 fps. The 310 yard target, the .308 barely dents it. My 6.5 puts a noticeable dent in it, and the 6mm goes THROUGH it. As the range exceeds, the .308 falls more on its face and the 6.5 appears to hit the hardest. <span style="color: #3333FF">That hot rod 6mm wont hit the target after about 1200 rounds because your bbl is shot out. The 308s are giving bbl life of 8000-12,000 rounds. Hence the super fast 6mms are no damm good for military/le use. You will need a new bbl before you even finish sniper school with a hot rod.</span>

Sure, logistically, the .308 is king...if you're an agency guy that has to be supplied. But for me, I'm not some military guy or a cop, nor a wannabe lying in the grass in a ghille for no reason. I'm a shooter. My goal is to shoot as much as I can, have as much fun as I can, and do whatever I can to place bullets where they need to go. For me, my 6.5 is "tactical" in that it helps me accomplish my goal.

Another goal is hunting. I hunt from 100 to 1000 yards. So I "tactically" implement 6.5s and 7mms. Have you ever killed anything at long range? Have you done so with 6.5mms and 7mms? Have you done so with a .308? If you have, you'd understand the 6.5/7mm rounds do a much better job of killing; cleaner, faster. <span style="color: #3333FF">Yes, I have killed many things from arms length to 1100 yards with many different calibers. Also shot enough steel to see difference between light fast and heavy bullets hitting. Take a 6mm with appears to be the 300WM equal on paper and go againts the 300wm on steel/heavy targets and see the difference.</span>

"Tactical" is the most over-used phrase out there to the point where its starting to sound like "zomebie" crap; becoming a cliche. </div></div> <span style="color: #3366FF">Sorry but the name "Tactical" comes from what I named my company in 1998, when I started it, Tactical Intervention Specialists. That was the name that said what a sniper did and I came up with it before ever other one though Tactical was cool. It was barley used before I did and I wish I had used another name</span>

You need to read my posts on this subject before you shit a chicken. I laid out the good and bad, not just the bad.
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We all gain. New powders and bullets give the 308 longer legs too.


PC140003.jpg
</div></div>

Mind sharing you load with those bullets?
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

Someone asked why the 308. Well for me I switched to F TR Class so I would only be shooting against the guys not have an equipment race. Well guess what F TR is now an equipment race just like lal the other classes. Guys are loading way long and using 200-230 grain bullets at velocities no 308 should have. I think eventually we will get a handle on F TR Class and bring it back down to shooter versus shooter thing again like International Palma is.

The only answer to make thing 100% fair would be to issue everyone the same ammo and weapons and make them all shoot the same. The problem with this is no one will do it and the sport would die. That class is to be left to Military and police where they all use issue weapons/ammo. For the GP it should be what ever the rules allow.

Teh differences between the two are good in that the equipment races bread new and better equipment for the LE/Military guys. Look at Service Rifle Class, for years it was same old same old because of strict rules. It became far from any real type of shooting because thats how we did it for a hundred years.

Now we have Practical Precision or what ever you wnat to call it and we have some new blod and great ideas. Thats a plus in my book.

That wont take away the fact the 308 is here to stay and works well for LE and MIlitary Snipers.
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll stick with my .308's </div></div>

Psh. You would.
blush.gif


In all seriousness, I love my .308, but there are a number of reasons I'm assembling a 6.5. As for restricting calibers in competition, I've been involved in auto racing in various forms for a number of years, and it's very clear to me that competition always creates conflict in terms of what should or shouldn't be allowed. There are different classes for different disciplines, and there will always be debate about what classes should be added or altered. Shooting is no different, we all have views on what a 'fair' competition is or isn't....

-matt
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="color: #3333FF">That hot rod 6mm wont hit the target after about 1200 rounds because your bbl is shot out. The 308s are giving bbl life of 8000-12,000 rounds. Hence the super fast 6mms are no damm good for military/le use. You will need a new bbl before you even finish sniper school with a hot rod.</span><span style="color: #3333FF">Yes, I have killed many things from arms length to 1100 yards with many different calibers. Also shot enough steel to see difference between light fast and heavy bullets hitting. Take a 6mm with appears to be the 300WM equal on paper and go againts the 300wm on steel/heavy targets and see the difference.</span>

<span style="color: #FF0000">You're absolutely right, barrel life is short on the 6mm. I never suggested the contrary. Its part of the price you pay for the advantages---but at short to medium range, it will penetrate. Beyond that, it sheds what it has and the weight takes over. I've never, nor will I ever suggest that's what military or LE should use. As I said, logistically, the .308 is king---for now. Who compared the .300 Win Mag to 6mm? Aren't we taking .308 vs XXX?I've never seen on paper a 6mm equally the .300 Win mag in energy, rather matching or beating it in terms of trajectory. But if you've killed game from 100-1100 with a .308 then a 6.5 Creed or .260 (or one of the many 7mms), you'd not the .308 is inferior, or "outclassed" as the OP questioned.</span>

<span style="color: #3366FF">Sorry but the name "Tactical" comes from what I named my company in 1998, when I started it, Tactical Intervention Specialists. That was the name that said what a sniper did and I came up with it before ever other one though Tactical was cool. It was barley used before I did and I wish I had used another name</span>

<span style="color: #FF0000">My talking about "tactical" is not a slam on you or your handle, as back then it wasn't thrown around on everything like it is now. Seems if a company wants to boost sales, paint it black and slap "tactical" on it and she's gonna sell
wink.gif
</span>

You need to read my posts on this subject before you shit a chicken. I laid out the good and bad, not just the bad.
<span style="color: #FF0000">Noted, and I respect your post. I wasn't directing the whole post to you, rather just the comment on penetration. My fault for not clearing that up. I should have made two posts or quoted the others. Again, my fault there.</span>
</div></div>

Like the .45-70, the .30-30, and a whole host of other cartridges, new things come along. There ARE better options than the .308 Win (in sport <span style="font-weight: bold">which is the purpose of this thread</span>, not necessarily in the military realm at this moment) and we cannot be resistant to the changes if we want this sport we all love to continue to evolve. Most guys shooting .308s and winning are doing well in spite of their selection, not because of it.
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Someone asked why the 308. Well for me I switched to F TR Class so I would only be shooting against the guys not have an equipment race. Well guess what F TR is now an equipment race just like lal the other classes. Guys are loading way long and using 200-230 grain bullets at velocities no 308 should have. I think eventually we will get a handle on F TR Class and bring it back down to shooter versus shooter thing again like International Palma is.

The only answer to make thing 100% fair would be to issue everyone the same ammo and weapons and make them all shoot the same. The problem with this is no one will do it and the sport would die. That class is to be left to Military and police where they all use issue weapons/ammo. For the GP it should be what ever the rules allow.

Teh differences between the two are good in that the equipment races bread new and better equipment for the LE/Military guys. Look at Service Rifle Class, for years it was same old same old because of strict rules. It became far from any real type of shooting because thats how we did it for a hundred years.

Now we have Practical Precision or what ever you wnat to call it and we have some new blod and great ideas. Thats a plus in my book.

That wont take away the fact the 308 is here to stay and works well for LE and MIlitary Snipers. </div></div>

Agree with everything you've said here except for we can't predict where the .308 will go, but its here for now
wink.gif
Eventually, progress will kill it. Aren't the M24s being converted to .300 Win, leaving the 7.62x51 NATO to the semi-auto platform?
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

The 308 can gain the same ballistic improvements as the larger cases by Loading heavy high BC bullets. Reduced drift, increased energy, extended supersonic range. Of course that also comes with increased recoil.

I loaded the Hdy 225gr BTHP to 2500 fps (20.5" bbl) via 48gr RL17.

A few comparisons in local atmo, 4500' ASL. 175gr SMK at 2600 fps, and 225gr Hornady BTHP at 2500 fps.

1000 yd drop,
175gr - 35.84 moa
225gr - 32.25 moa

1000 yd drift (10 mph fv)
175 - 8.17 moa
225 - 5.34 moa

1000 yd energy,
175gr - 665 ft-lbs
225gr - 1239 ft-lbs

Retains 1200 fps to,
175gr - 1130 yards
225gr - 1570 yards

To me those are very relevant gains in performance.

The loads i ran with the 225gr in the 308 were kind of a lark to see if they would even be stable at 1/12 twist, and they were.

My everyday 308 load is the 208 AMax at 2620 fps from the 20.5" rig. The gains over 175gr FGMM ballistics are roughly similar to the 225gr.

I'm not suggesting the 308 is a better competiton cartridge regardless, as I think the 6.5 Creedmoor and similar are better suited to that game. I maximize the 308 simply because that is what I have.

 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

Montana- Long or short action?
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Someone asked why the 308. Well for me I switched to F TR Class so I would only be shooting against the guys not have an equipment race. Well guess what F TR is now an equipment race just like lal the other classes. Guys are loading way long and using 200-230 grain bullets at velocities no 308 should have. I think eventually we will get a handle on F TR Class and bring it back down to shooter versus shooter thing again like International Palma is.

The only answer to make thing 100% fair would be to issue everyone the same ammo and weapons and make them all shoot the same. The problem with this is no one will do it and the sport would die. That class is to be left to Military and police where they all use issue weapons/ammo. For the GP it should be what ever the rules allow.

Teh differences between the two are good in that the equipment races bread new and better equipment for the LE/Military guys. Look at Service Rifle Class, for years it was same old same old because of strict rules. It became far from any real type of shooting because thats how we did it for a hundred years.

Now we have Practical Precision or what ever you wnat to call it and we have some new blod and great ideas. Thats a plus in my book.

That wont take away the fact the 308 is here to stay and works well for LE and MIlitary Snipers. </div></div>

Agree with everything you've said here except for we can't predict where the .308 will go, but its here for now
wink.gif
Eventually, progress will kill it. Aren't the M24s being converted to .300 Win, leaving the 7.62x51 NATO to the semi-auto platform? </div></div>

yes because short action calibers at this point belong in a gas gun. there is not benifit in just about any of the 6cm, 6.5, 308, 7-08, etc if you can fit it in a gas gun might as well. they are becoming so accurate now with modern technology and reliable enough that they should be gas guns. so if your carrying a bolt you might as well make it a caliber like 300wm or 338lm and really get some more distance and kinetic energy to use.
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

For conversation and a visual, here are a few of the bullets I play with in the 308, alongside the case itself.
P8070036-1.jpg



I mostly load 50gr RL17 in fireformed/neck-sized brass, and seat a moly'd 208 AMax to 3.00" oal. This is a pic of 308 cases holding 50gr RL17. Loading the 208 at 3.00" does compress it but not excessively to mark the bullet.
P6160021.jpg
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Obviously the biggest variable being the shooter....but that aside, even with todays outstanding .30 cal bullets, does anyone effectively compete with a .308 anymore?

Seems like 6 mm and 6.5 mm rounds rule the roost with their light recoil, flat shooting rounds.

Is the .308 just outclassed and outdated?

My switch barrel .243-.308 rifle is almost done and I've been looking at some of the ballistics with the Hornady 178 BTHP out of a .308 and wondering if I wasted my time with the .243. The added expenses for the barrel, the ammo components, reloading gear.

Since Im not at the top of the pack skill wise compared to regular hard core competition guys, should I look at it as "take every advantage I can get with the .243" or "Im not a good enough shooter to notice the difference anyways" mentality? </div></div>

Let me predict the future and tell a bullodious tale of woe and yet of victory.

As soon as you switch barrels back and forth a few times you'll notice the differences and begin to favor the lighter recoil of the ... and all the other benefits the caliber provides. It shall be subconscious at first but more pronounced as time goes by.

After the smaller bore barrel wears out you'll put on the larger bore barrel wishing all the while the new smaller bore barrel was already done because you'll be missing what you strive to hit just to the right and to the left. The wind will laugh mockingly at you and haunt you in your dreams but lo, a light will shine forth and you shall receive a revelation concerning salt bath nitrocarburizing.

Occasionally you will look for reasons to use the larger bore barrel like entering cartridge specific comps and shooting groups or dot drills at 100Y. The months will turn to years and the years to decades. Wonderment and bewilderment will overtake you as to why you had a switch barrel rifle built in the first place. Wander ye not in the desert of factory 168 HPBT, many a lad has fallen to her beguiling and deception.

And lo, the larger bore barrel will never be shot enough to be replaced and shall stand upright in the dark corner of the safe much despised and rejected.
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Obviously the biggest variable being the shooter....but that aside, even with todays outstanding .30 cal bullets, does anyone effectively compete with a .308 anymore?

Seems like 6 mm and 6.5 mm rounds rule the roost with their light recoil, flat shooting rounds.

Is the .308 just outclassed and outdated?

My switch barrel .243-.308 rifle is almost done and I've been looking at some of the ballistics with the Hornady 178 BTHP out of a .308 and wondering if I wasted my time with the .243. The added expenses for the barrel, the ammo components, reloading gear.

Since Im not at the top of the pack skill wise compared to regular hard core competition guys, should I look at it as "take every advantage I can get with the .243" or "Im not a good enough shooter to notice the difference anyways" mentality? </div></div>

Let me predict the future and tell a bullodious tale of woe and yet of victory.

As soon as you switch barrels back and forth a few times you'll notice the differences and begin to favor the lighter recoil of the ... and all the other benefits the caliber provides. It shall be subconscious at first but more pronounced as time goes by.

After the smaller bore barrel wears out you'll put on the larger bore barrel wishing all the while the new smaller bore barrel was already done because you'll be missing what you strive to hit just to the right and to the left. The wind will laugh mockingly at you and haunt you in your dreams but lo, a light will shine forth and you shall receive a revelation concerning salt bath nitrocarburizing.

Occasionally you will look for reasons to use the larger bore barrel like entering cartridge specific comps and shooting groups or dot drills at 100Y. The months will turn to years and the years to decades. Wonderment and bewilderment will overtake you as to why you had a switch barrel rifle built in the first place. Wander ye not in the desert of factory 168 HPBT, many a lad has fallen to her beguiling and deception.

And lo, the larger bore barrel will never be shot enough to be replaced and shall stand upright in the dark corner of the safe much despised and rejected. </div></div>

Very entertaining. Good job.
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

damn it guys i just wasted 20 mins reading all this shit!!! i KNOW 308's are at a disadvantage, hence the reason i have a 6.5CM coming. you guy need to let this one die. i have a 308 and do quite well against the 'barrel burners' with it. i wanna see where i stand shooting the 6.5. hope to see ya'll at k&m for the grind.
IT IS THE INDIAN!!!
smile.gif
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Obviously the biggest variable being the shooter....but that aside, even with todays outstanding .30 cal bullets, does anyone effectively compete with a .308 anymore?

Seems like 6 mm and 6.5 mm rounds rule the roost with their light recoil, flat shooting rounds.

Is the .308 just outclassed and outdated?

My switch barrel .243-.308 rifle is almost done and I've been looking at some of the ballistics with the Hornady 178 BTHP out of a .308 and wondering if I wasted my time with the .243. The added expenses for the barrel, the ammo components, reloading gear.

Since Im not at the top of the pack skill wise compared to regular hard core competition guys, should I look at it as "take every advantage I can get with the .243" or "Im not a good enough shooter to notice the difference anyways" mentality? </div></div>

Let me predict the future and tell a bullodious tale of woe and yet of victory.

As soon as you switch barrels back and forth a few times you'll notice the differences and begin to favor the lighter recoil of the ... and all the other benefits the caliber provides. It shall be subconscious at first but more pronounced as time goes by.

After the smaller bore barrel wears out you'll put on the larger bore barrel wishing all the while the new smaller bore barrel was already done because you'll be missing what you strive to hit just to the right and to the left. The wind will laugh mockingly at you and haunt you in your dreams but lo, a light will shine forth and you shall receive a revelation concerning salt bath nitrocarburizing.

Occasionally you will look for reasons to use the larger bore barrel like entering cartridge specific comps and shooting groups or dot drills at 100Y. The months will turn to years and the years to decades. Wonderment and bewilderment will overtake you as to why you had a switch barrel rifle built in the first place. Wander ye not in the desert of factory 168 HPBT, many a lad has fallen to her beguiling and deception.

And lo, the larger bore barrel will never be shot enough to be replaced and shall stand upright in the dark corner of the safe much despised and rejected. </div></div>


Lol.......I almost cried!
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

I think the 308 round is still a great round. You can buy ammo in bulk and the price isn't that bad. I own a Savage 12 F/TR in the 308 caliber and i could ask for a better rifle. I hunt in Kentucky making shots at 300 yrds and shot in competitions in Texas making shots out to a 1000 yrds. The round only moves 7.5 mils from 0 to 1000.

So personally while the round maybe old it still hangs in with the new calibers that are coming out. The 308 round is a great round for inexperienced shooter up to competition level shooter. ultimately the choice is yours and you should pick the round that best suites your needs and budget.
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Razr286</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the 308 round is still a great round... <span style="font-weight: bold"> The round only moves 7.5 mils from 0 to 1000.</span>
</div></div>

What?

Do you mean windage?

Are you sure about that?
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Razr286</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the 308 round is still a great round... <span style="font-weight: bold"> The round only moves 7.5 mils from 0 to 1000.</span>
</div></div>

What?

Do you mean windage?

Are you sure about that? </div></div>

That could be accurate if he is shooting at 10,000 feet of elevation :) otherwise, those numbers are not right.
 
Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

Ain't 10k of elevation in Kentucky...

A 155gr Scenar @ 3000fps, at 1000' ASL, with a **300yd zero** gets you about 7.5mil to 1000yd.
 
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