Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

[25MAN]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

The original question I believe was "Is a 308 out classed as a tatical match caliber?" the simple answer is absolutely it is out classed...sure the right shooter can hit targets and do well with a 308 but they aren't winning the Long range matches...7WSM,7SAUM,300WSM,300WM, 6.5s, .243, all have a nice advantage over the .308.

And I think Graham stated there is no advantage to running a 260 at 2770 against his .308 #'s and I agree but also challenge that only becuase no one should be running a .260 at 2770 that is WAY too slow. At ASC guys are running the 130JLK with a BC over.6 at 2960fps and 140s at close to 2900fps with 24 and 26 inch tubes so definitely an advantage there.

308 is a great caliber with a lot of history but it is easily out matched IMO...you put a great 308 shooter behind a flatter round with a higher BC and I would be willing to bet they would outperform what they were able to do with a 308.

 

[tylerw02]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: para1505</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I shoot a .308....I think that if it is a tactical match 5.56,.308,.300WM,.338Lapua, should be all calibers that you can shoot in a tactical because that is the NATO calibers and that should be the restriction. </div></div>

Why?

 

[tnichols]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

To me the .308 is alot like 45ACP. They're both big, slow, dated by newcomers, easy to load for, etc... and when used correctly, punch holes in paper, ring steel, and tip over people just fine.

 

[kimberseries1]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tnichols</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To me the .308 is alot like 45ACP. They're both big, slow, dated by newcomers, easy to load for, etc... and when used correctly, punch holes in paper, ring steel, and tip over people just fine. </div></div>

You muss be one uv dem new-fangled .40 Short & Weak guys.

 

[Run N Gun]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

I won't argue with you one bit with your answer. the only thing that keeps me from whiching to a flatter shooting calaber is that at a tactical match you might as well kiss your brass goodbye. that can add a lot of cost to a match as well as time spent on the brass. If it was a target match and I knew I could get all my brass back it would be different. no matter what you shoot a tactical match is one of the funnest matches I've ever shot.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Johny B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I won't argue with you one bit with your answer. the only thing that keeps me from whiching to a flatter shooting calaber is that at a tactical match you might as well kiss your brass goodbye. that can add a lot of cost to a match as well as time spent on the brass. If it was a target match and I knew I could get all my brass back it would be different. no matter what you shoot a tactical match is one of the funnest matches I've ever shot. </div></div>

308 brass is essentially free, so yeah, losing it at a tac match is no biggie... but, when you consider time off work, travel, lodging, food, barrel wear, entrance fee etc etc, the $25-50 in lost brass is kinda a drop in the bucket. I'm still a tactical match novice, but I haven't lost more than ~20pcs of brass at a match yet.

 

[RobertB]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

Montana is right. Reloading the 308 properly will produce results MUCH better than factory but you will always be at a ballistic disadvantage compared to 260 and hot 243's. If your gonna reload then I would say an improved 260 is hard to beat, I shoot a straight 260 and feel its not a bad choice. Anyway, to compete with most of the guys with a 308 your skill level will need to be higher I feel. One guy that got me into shooting said " keep the 308 for 308 only matches" I keep it for that and because of the factory ammo thing. I will always have a 308 BUT I will most likly be carrying other rifles out for most shooting. Why bring your slower car to the race? Good luck

 

[WhiskeyWebber]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

Whatever you do, don't switch to one of the 6mm variants.

Those things suck.

 

[tnichols]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?



You muss be one uv dem new-fangled .40 Short & Weak guys.

[/quote]

Nope. USPSA Single Stack - .45ACP

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

I'm glad someone asked this question even though it is agrguably the wrong question and I'm not sure I agree with the answers. As someone relatively new to this sport the 1st question I asked was...

WTF? Why are non-NATO/military calibers even on the same playing field? Its like saying that a NASCAR rig is outclassed at the 24 hrs of Daytona. Well...duh...ya think? Given that 7.72 is the only tactical cartridge in the room, its hardly outclassed or outdated from purely a performance stainpoint when used in the context it was intended...shooting bad guys.

I've shot in these matches and I say with sincerity that I have a great deal of respect for those in this sport that rise to the top. Not only for their skills, but everyone I've met I could see myself hanging out with...they're just great guys and it surely takes dedication to reach that level of performance.

In the same breath I don't believe that the best shooters necessarily always win.

To me saying that its OK to just "run what you brung" in a venue that is <span style="text-decoration: underline">clearly</span> intended to simulate military exercises and showing up with a very non-military cartridge because its so much easier to shoot doesn't seem right.

I don't own a race cartridge and will compete anyway. Call me crazy but I like to shoot from the mens tees

 

[M C]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

i've been shooting from the mens tee's to dave!
i believe if you reload it, and are VERY good,ie- KNOW your gun(the MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR) you can almost run with the laser guns(6mm's 6.5's 300wm...ect)
i have a 308 and can do ok with it, i just want to see where I stand with a flatter shooting gun.- plus a guy can't have too many guns right?

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M C</div><div class="ubbcode-body">- plus a guy can't have too many guns right?

</div></div>

Heh heh...you're asking the wrong guy that question. I'd be awaiting trial if that were the case

 

[25MAN]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm glad someone asked this question even though it is agrguably the wrong question and I'm not sure I agree with the answers. As someone relatively new to this sport the 1st question I asked was...

WTF? Why are non-NATO/military calibers even on the same playing field? Its like saying that a NASCAR rig is outclassed at the 24 hrs of Daytona. Well...duh...ya think? Given that 7.72 is the only tactical cartridge in the room, its hardly outclassed or outdated from purely a performance stainpoint when used in the context it was intended...shooting bad guys.

I don't own a race cartridge and will compete anyway. Call me crazy but I like to shoot from the mens tees

</div></div>

you don't consider a 300 Win mag a "race" cartridge? its a NATO round and it's not out classed with the new smaller calibers, infact the last two ASC matches I've been to the 300 win mag won both (two different shooters). Its a damn good round that holds its own against the non Nato rounds...this thread is simply about the .308. and yes it is simply outdated and someday the military will most likely upograde when they get rid of the millions of surplus ammo for it LOL...if you are shooting a 308 in the civilian world these days, it's you who is hitting from the ladies tee...haha

I don't understand why you wouldn't chose the best tool for the job when it comes to shooting accurately at extended ranges? With everything else in life we make sure we have the right tool for the job so why should shooting be any different? there are so many better tools now than the .308...its ok to except change

We are not limited like the military guys are we have a choice to what we can shoot...i am sure if they had a choice there would be other cartridges running around with in our military groups.

Bottom line is this sport is fun and its about so much more then just hitting steel in my opinion...so many great people and fun is had out in the field of play i could careless what you shoot just have fun, afterall its what its meant to be.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 25MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
you don't consider a 300 Win mag a "race" cartridge? its a NATO round and it's not out classed with the new smaller calibers, infact the last two ASC matches I've been to the 300 win mag won both (two different shooters). Its a damn good round that holds its own against the non Nato rounds...this thread is simply about the .308. and yes it is simply outdated and someday the military will most likely upograde when they get rid of the millions of surplus ammo for it LOL...if you are shooting a 308 in the civilian world these days, it's you who is hitting from the ladies tee...haha

I don't understand why you wouldn't chose the best tool for the job when it comes to shooting accurately at extended ranges? With everything else in life we make sure we have the right tool for the job so why should shooting be any different? there are so many better tools now than the .308...its ok to except change
</div></div>

The 300wm is a military caliber just as the .338LM is. Problem as I see it is the arguement keeps getting changed to circumvent the obvious. Running non-military calibers is like...

-Allowing a few golfers in a PGA event to ride carts when the others have to walk
-Running race cars (or race anything) outside their respective classes
-Allowing some olympians to "juice" while others cant"

These may not be the best examples but there are virtually tens of thousands of examples I could give. If a "better tool for the job" is the goal why stop at caliber? I can make a better shot off of a sled and can make more hits if I have double the time allotted. Isn't more time and a fancy rest "better"?

Even the COF has become skewed to a degree in these matches....you can't tell me that a 4 or 6 inch target at the berm at 800 yds accomplishes anything other than to weed out lessor equipment... those with that gear essentially get an advantage that isn't talent-based.

Back to the best tool...these "off" calibers may be the best tool for target shooting but that's about where it ends. They'd be a poor choice (with a few exceptions) as a military caliber for countless reasons and these matches are being billed as tactical matches. I live with it as do many others and largely don't complain BUT the arguements in favor don't change the fact that competitors cannot compete on an equal playing field.

 

[25MAN]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

But all competitors have the choice and opportunity to play at at level playing field no one has to shoot a .308 or if you do shoot .308 only matches they do exist...if they chose not to then that is a call they have to make and live with. It still will always come down to the nut behind the butt of the gun...a shitty shooter still will not do well regardless of the gun in his hands... if you take to equal shooters and give one a .308 and the other a 7WSM sure the WSM will have an advantage in some ways.

The question still remains is the .308 oudated...and regardless of the aurguments being made whether the other so called "cheater" calibers should be allowed to compete just strengthen's the argument that it is absolutely outdated or people would not be complaining about the other calibers people are shooting

But the point here is you have a choice what to shoot if you chose a .308 thats their fault haha.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 25MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But all competitors have the choice and opportunity to play at at level playing field no one has to shoot a .308 or if you do shoot .308 only matches they do exsist...if they chose not to then that is a call they have to make and live with. </div></div>

Again...a different arguement. A tactical match, is a tactical match, with tactical rifles, shooting tactical calibers. Well at least is was. Sure I can go out and buy the latest "<span style="font-style: italic">insert caliber here</span>" rifle but I choose not to.

 

[BoilerUP]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The 300wm is a military caliber just as the .338LM is. Problem as I see it is the arguement keeps getting changed to circumvent the obvious. Running non-military calibers is like...

-Allowing a few golfers in a PGA event to ride carts when the others have to walk
-Running race cars (or race anything) outside their respective classes
-Allowing some olympians to "juice" while others cant"

</div></div>

That's only true if "tactical shooting" is completely and totally synonymous with "military shooting"...which its not.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Back to the best tool...these "off" calibers may be the best tool for target shooting but that's about where it ends. They'd be a poor choice (with a few exceptions) as a military caliber for countless reasons and these matches are being billed as tactical matches.</div></div>

Why would "off" calibers be a 'poor choice' as a military caliber?

Something being a military standard caliber doesn't necessarily mean it is the best suited for the task - it simply means there are decades worth of inventory and supply chain behind it.

God knows Uncle Sam isn't exactly nimble when it comes to material acquisition - the institutional momentum is akin to a 100car coal train.

Compare the ballistics of 7.62 M118LR with a 7mm-08 pushing a 175SMK @ 2600fps (or a 260 pushing a 142 SMK @ 2750fps) and tell me which one you would want to be engaging bad guys with if given a choice.

Me? I'll take the cartridge that drops and drifts less, improving my ability to make a first-round hit, while delivering more downrange energy.

Its not 1954 anymore - the 7.62x51/308 has been made obsolete by modern cartridge/powder/bullet design. Doesn't mean its "bad", just means there are other choices that are "better"...

 

[25MAN]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 25MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But all competitors have the choice and opportunity to play at at level playing field no one has to shoot a .308 or if you do shoot .308 only matches they do exsist...if they chose not to then that is a call they have to make and live with. </div></div>

Again...a different arguement. A tactical match, is a tactical match, with tactical rifles, shooting tactical calibers. Well at least is was. Sure I can go out and buy the latest "<span style="font-style: italic">insert caliber here</span>" rifle but I choose not to. </div></div>

Seems to be the same argument to...I have never lost sight of the original question with my questions and answers back..."Is a .308 out classed these days" and my answer has been absolutely the whole time and clearly you agree since you feel the lattest calibers are changing the game and even questioned why the would be allowed at matches haha


just having fun man don't take it to heart

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BoilerUP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Compare the ballistics of 7.62 M118LR with a 7mm-08 pushing a 175SMK @ 2600fps (or a 260 pushing a 142 SMK @ 2750fps) and tell me which one you would want to be engaging bad guys with if given a choice.

Me? I'll take the cartridge that drops and drifts less, improving my ability to make a first-round hit, while delivering more downrange energy.

Its not 1954 anymore - the 7.62x51/308 has been made obsolete by modern cartridge/powder/bullet design. Doesn't mean its "bad", just means there are other choices that are "better"... </div></div>

Seriously? I'd take a .308 hands down if my life depended on it for no other reason than logistics and functional reliability.

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

There was a similar thread to this a couple of days back wherein a gentleman asked whether he should change his rifle to a 6.5 variant since he heard that the 308 was pretty much outclassed...or something to that effect.

I responded to him by saying that:

1. Most of comparisons btw 308 & 260s pit lower-weight, lower BC .308 pills (155s & 175s, 178s)at moderate velocities against the highest BC 6.5 pill (140AMAX, JLKs, et al) at high end velocities...and that if you reload the 308 with modern, heavier .30cal bullets such as the 208AMAX, 225 HPBT, or the new 230gr Berger Hybrids (.649, .711, .743 G1 BCs respectively) at moderate speeds, they will outclass the 6.5s in wind-drift & retained energy but at the expense of increased recoil.

2. It depends on what you will be using the rifle for...tactical comps where distances are unknown or changing rapidly, the flatter-shooting, lower-recoiling calibers have the edge. Whereas for known distance competitions wherein location of hits matter X-ring, 10-ring, 9-ring etc is what counts, the heavier, modern 30-cal bullets will offer an advantage because of superior wind-drift relative.

the above two points were/is the crux of my opinion. I may have undermined my points by using too slow a velocity for 208AMAX for a comparison (i assumed 2600ft/s w 24" barrel because guys on here reported 100ft/s faster, and i dint want anyone pushing the limits of safe reloading).

To me, using heavier 30-cal projectiles such as those i mentioned earlier, with modern powders such as CFE223 or Alliant 2000MR is the way foward for the 308...it really puts the trusty 308 at another level compared to traditional 308 loads.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 25MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
just having fun man don't take it to heart </div></div>

Just good discussion bro. I'm unlikely to be convinced that they belong. If the military adopts them I'll likely change my views but until that day I'll view them for what they are...a non-military caliber. That said I seriously doubt my feelings on the matter are going to steer this sport any, nor would I necessarily want that responsibility. I'll keep shooting my .308's and love every minute of it.

 

[25MAN]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

as you should man...its a fun topic to debate I agree...but as you stated keep shooting whatever you want and have fun doing so because it all that matters in the end.

And remember the military now shoots people with .50 cals so they are adopting LOL We cant even use 50 cals in competitions haha

Shoot straight!

 

[tylerw02]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WTF? Why are non-NATO/military calibers even on the same playing field? Its like saying that a NASCAR rig is outclassed at the 24 hrs of Daytona. Well...duh...ya think? Given that 7.72 is the only tactical cartridge in the room, its hardly outclassed or outdated from purely a performance stainpoint when used in the context it was intended...shooting bad guys.

I've shot in these matches and I say with sincerity that I have a great deal of respect for those in this sport that rise to the top. Not only for their skills, but everyone I've met I could see myself hanging out with...they're just great guys and it surely takes dedication to reach that level of performance.

In the same breath I don't believe that the best shooters necessarily always win.

To me saying that its OK to just "run what you brung" in a venue that is <span style="text-decoration: underline">clearly</span> intended to simulate military exercises and showing up with a very non-military cartridge because its so much easier to shoot doesn't seem right.

I don't own a race cartridge and will compete anyway. Call me crazy but I like to shoot from the mens tees

</div></div>


These are not "international military sniper matches". If you want to "level the playing field" by forcing everybody to shoot a crummy cartridge, then why don't we just agree that everybody will use an Remington M24SWS from 1982? Non-swivel Harris, fixed Leupold 10x with MOA/BDC knobs under a dust cover, turner sling...the whole nine yards! Hell, we can even run M118LR just to say we're so snipery!

Geez, man. Give it up.

 

[B.Bates]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

i heard this somewhere else and it is worth repeating

"friends don't let their friends shoot a 308"




ive got a hot rod 308, i shoot 155.5's at 3k plus

i will take a 6mm or 6.5m anyday over it

bergers for a 308 are over $40 a box, $30 for 6mm plus the lesser recoil factor. now yes barrel life is greater with a 308 but that is it

i firmly believe the best shooters are going to win, its the Indian not the arrow

take Practical this year it was a 308 only match, but lets me real a 155 at 3000fps is not the same as a 175 at 2600fps but still i believe the best shooters won that match and the results would have been the same if it was anything goes.


who cares about wheter its a military cartidge or not, talk to some of the top military shooters and they would rather run a 6mm or 6.5

plus wasn't the international military competition that was aired on tv a few years ago won by a 300wsm by a guy in the AMU??

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[These are not "international military sniper matches". If you want to "level the playing field" by forcing everybody to shoot a crummy cartridge, then why don't we just agree that everybody will use an Remington M24SWS from 1982? Non-swivel Harris, fixed Leupold 10x with MOA/BDC knobs under a dust cover, turner sling...the whole nine yards! Hell, we can even run M118LR just to say we're so snipery!

Geez, man. Give it up. </div></div>

You're missing the point completely and its not in my interest to explain it further. Again...justify it however you like but there's a point where it <span style="text-decoration: underline">stops</span> being a test of marksmanship. You won't change my mind by extending the arguement to ridiculous proportions....I could do the same thing and we'd be right back where we started.

 

[kimberseries1]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tnichols</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kimberseries1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

You muss be one uv dem new-fangled .40 Short & Weak guys.

</div></div>

Nope. USPSA Single Stack - .45ACP </div></div>


Ahhhhh, is there any other way?

 

[kimberseries1]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">These are not "international military sniper matches". If you want to "level the playing field" by forcing everybody to shoot a crummy cartridge, then why don't we just agree that everybody will use an Remington M24SWS from 1982? Non-swivel Harris, fixed Leupold 10x with MOA/BDC knobs under a dust cover, turner sling...the whole nine yards! Hell, we can even run M118LR just to say we're so snipery!

Geez, man. Give it up. </div></div>


OK, you are wanting to shoot a "Tactical" match. Is a 6xc, 6br, or similar a "Tactical" cartridge? No, they are wildcats on their way to possibly becoming commercial in the future.

Are any SWAT teams using these calibers? 6.5 CM IS being used by some SWAT teams, to the best of my knowledge I'm pretty sure I read that on this site 2 days ago.

Why don't you define what cartrdges are "Tactical", then allow those calibers? Then, everyone's happy!

 

[kimberseries1]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 25MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And remember the military now shoots people with .50 cals so they are adopting LOL We cant even use 50 cals in competitions haha

Shoot straight! </div></div>

Hell, can I use the .577 T-Rex in a tactical match???? Me Wantee!! Hold over 40ft for elevation, hold over 25 ft. for wind drift......

 

[kimberseries1]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again...justify it however you like but there's a point where it <span style="text-decoration: underline">stops</span> being a test of marksmanship. You won't change my mind by extending the arguement to ridiculous proportions....I could do the same thing and we'd be right back where we started. </div></div>


Really? So at what point is it NOT about marksmanship??? Do the rifles shoot themselves? Do the rifles make wind calls, adjustments, call misses, call adjustments?

I WANT THAT RIFLE!!!

 

[25MAN]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kimberseries1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 25MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And remember the military now shoots people with .50 cals so they are adopting LOL We cant even use 50 cals in competitions haha

Shoot straight! </div></div>

Hell, can I use the .577 T-Rex in a tactical match???? Me Wantee!! Hold over 40ft for elevation, hold over 25 ft. for wind drift...... </div></div>

LOL...I am good with it man...as long as you can shoot 100 rounds over a two day match and you don't get thrown out for ruining all the steel and everything around it LOL...you will get great feedback from the steel as it will be there before the shot and gone after LOL and if you miss you will get great feedback to where you hit based on the explosion that happens around the steel..

Damn maybe I want to as well!!!

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kimberseries1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Really? So at what point is it NOT about marksmanship??? Do the rifles shoot themselves? Do the rifles make wind calls, adjustments, call misses, call adjustments?

I WANT THAT RIFLE!!! </div></div>

.308 is harder to shoot. Recoil makes it more difficult for follow-ups and calls. Drop/drift make it more difficult for multiple distance engagements so the "lets make it easier" arguement is where marksmanship begins to fade. .308 is however a duty caliber.

I could easily say that if things like recoil and trajectory are too difficult for you (or anyone), there's always paintball, airsoft, and video games but this statement is rhetorical of course...I'm not going to take the low road. I just fail to see the need to remove the "difficult" from the equation.

 

[BoilerUP]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

This conversation is almost like showing up to a Corvette day at a drag strip and getting your ass handed to you by a Z06, only to whine that it would be more fair and in the spirit of driver v. driver if everybody had to use a 327.

There's a reason why IROC doesn't exist anymore...

 

[25MAN]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kimberseries1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Really? So at what point is it NOT about marksmanship??? Do the rifles shoot themselves? Do the rifles make wind calls, adjustments, call misses, call adjustments?

I WANT THAT RIFLE!!! </div></div>

.308 is harder to shoot. Recoil makes it more difficult for follow-ups and calls. Drop/drift make it more difficult for multiple distance engagements so the "lets make it easier" arguement is where marksmanship begins to fade. .308 is however a duty caliber.
</div></div>

Sorry man you are way off here. .308 infact has less recoil then alot of the long range calibers like 7WSM, 7SAUM, 300WSM 300 winmag .284 etc. it is actual a very managable round shooting around 42-45 grains of powder while all the rest are shooting 60 or more grns, so as far as recoil management the .308 is one to choose not avoid. My 300WSM is shooting 66 grns of H4831 and 208 A-Max recoil is far greater.

sure .308 has more recoil then the 6.5s based soley on the pressure of shooting a heavier bullet but they are not that far off.

Plus most people shoot breaks so the recoil is really a non factor when shooting 15lb guns with a break or hell with the weight even without a break following up isn't hard if your fundamentals are good.

 

[tylerw02]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kimberseries1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">These are not "international military sniper matches". If you want to "level the playing field" by forcing everybody to shoot a crummy cartridge, then why don't we just agree that everybody will use an Remington M24SWS from 1982? Non-swivel Harris, fixed Leupold 10x with MOA/BDC knobs under a dust cover, turner sling...the whole nine yards! Hell, we can even run M118LR just to say we're so snipery!

Geez, man. Give it up. </div></div>


OK, you are wanting to shoot a "Tactical" match. Is a 6xc, 6br, or similar a "Tactical" cartridge? No, they are wildcats on their way to possibly becoming commercial in the future.

Are any SWAT teams using these calibers? 6.5 CM IS being used by some SWAT teams, to the best of my knowledge I'm pretty sure I read that on this site 2 days ago.

Why don't you define what cartrdges are "Tactical", then allow those calibers? Then, everyone's happy!

</div></div>





<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">tac·ti·cal
&#8194; &#8194;[tak-ti-kuhl] Show IPA
adjective
1.
of or pertaining to tactics, especially military or naval tactics.
2.
characterized by skillful tactics or adroit maneuvering or procedure: tactical movements.
3.
of or pertaining to a maneuver or plan of action designed as an expedient toward gaining a desired end or temporary advantage.
4.
expedient; calculated.
5.
prudent; politic.
</div></div>


Tactical describes how it is implemented. I don't give a shit what cartridge XYZ SWAT or military uses.

I have no emotional attachment to 7.62x51 NATO.

 

[tylerw02]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[These are not "international military sniper matches". If you want to "level the playing field" by forcing everybody to shoot a crummy cartridge, then why don't we just agree that everybody will use an Remington M24SWS from 1982? Non-swivel Harris, fixed Leupold 10x with MOA/BDC knobs under a dust cover, turner sling...the whole nine yards! Hell, we can even run M118LR just to say we're so snipery!

Geez, man. Give it up. </div></div>

You're missing the point completely and its not in my interest to explain it further. Again...justify it however you like but there's a point where it <span style="text-decoration: underline">stops</span> being a test of marksmanship. You won't change my mind by extending the arguement to ridiculous proportions....I could do the same thing and we'd be right back where we started. </div></div>

Exactly how is using a better cartridge make it no longer a test of marksmanship? I can miss with a 6.5 as easily as with a 7.62x51 NATO. Don't like it, don't go.

 

[Tactical]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

Hopefully I can do this without pissing too many folks off.

Todays Tactical Matches are a game that has evolved from Sniper type training/shooting. Like any game many competitors use every advantage to get an edge on the competition. This is normal and what drive better gear. In competition, competitors usually dont worry much about life of equipment, they simple want what works best during the competition.

Under current ways most matches are run the 308win is at a disadvantage to the better ballistically available calibers, such as the various 6mm,6.5s and 7wsm. Anyone competing with a 308 against these calibers is hurting themself because if you are an equal shooter to a man with a better caliber he will normally out score you. This is wlel demonstrated in F TR Class ( 308) versus F Open ( anything up to 338 Lapua) We often have one or two guys who will run with the Open Scores but as an average the better calibers will score higher.

Now many compete as training and dont really care if they dont win everything. I applaud the guys who use 308 in these matches and do so to train to be a better sniper/shooter but I dont have any problem with the guy who uses the 6mm wasso or what ever if it gets him an advantage and rules allow it.

Now what is best after the great training matches give, to me at least is the equipment improvements. Just like IPSC did for 1911s Tactical Matches are finding new ways to improve gear all the time

 

[kimberseries1]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kimberseries1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Really? So at what point is it NOT about marksmanship??? Do the rifles shoot themselves? Do the rifles make wind calls, adjustments, call misses, call adjustments?

I WANT THAT RIFLE!!! </div></div>

.308 is harder to shoot. Recoil makes it more difficult for follow-ups and calls. Drop/drift make it more difficult for multiple distance engagements so the "lets make it easier" arguement is where marksmanship begins to fade. .308 is however a duty caliber.

I could easily say that if things like recoil and trajectory are too difficult for you (or anyone), there's always paintball, airsoft, and video games but this statement is rhetorical of course...I'm not going to take the low road. I just fail to see the need to remove the "difficult" from the equation. </div></div>

Wait a minute, you said


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Again...justify it however you like but there's a point where it <span style="text-decoration: underline">stops</span> being a test of marksmanship. </div></div>


My question stands: <span style="text-decoration: underline">When is this NOT about marksmanship.</span> You <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">didn't</span></span> say, one caliber has an un-fair advantage over another. You <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">implied</span></span> one requires marksmanship, and other calibers don't.

 

[kimberseries1]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kimberseries1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">These are not "international military sniper matches". If you want to "level the playing field" by forcing everybody to shoot a crummy cartridge, then why don't we just agree that everybody will use an Remington M24SWS from 1982? Non-swivel Harris, fixed Leupold 10x with MOA/BDC knobs under a dust cover, turner sling...the whole nine yards! Hell, we can even run M118LR just to say we're so snipery!

Geez, man. Give it up. </div></div>


OK, you are wanting to shoot a "Tactical" match. Is a 6xc, 6br, or similar a "Tactical" cartridge? No, they are wildcats on their way to possibly becoming commercial in the future.

Are any SWAT teams using these calibers? 6.5 CM IS being used by some SWAT teams, to the best of my knowledge I'm pretty sure I read that on this site 2 days ago.

Why don't you define what cartrdges are "Tactical", then allow those calibers? Then, everyone's happy!

</div></div>





<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">tac·ti·cal
&#8194; &#8194;[tak-ti-kuhl] Show IPA
adjective
1.
of or pertaining to tactics, especially military or naval tactics.
2.
characterized by skillful tactics or adroit maneuvering or procedure: tactical movements.
3.
of or pertaining to a maneuver or plan of action designed as an expedient toward gaining a desired end or temporary advantage.
4.
expedient; calculated.
5.
prudent; politic.
</div></div>


Tactical describes how it is implemented. I don't give a shit what cartridge XYZ SWAT or military uses.

I have no emotional attachment to 7.62x51 NATO.

</div></div>


I don't either. I could give a rats A$$. I was actually trying to help your argument a little, albeit poorly.....

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

308 is outclassed that is for sure, but i have to agree that the playing fields should be leveled a bit more. what started out as LEO and MIL getting together to train and improve tactics is quickly turning into what drag racing or any other high end sport and the guy with the hottest caliber just crushes the new comer becuase he can hold center mass teh entire way out and just pull the trigger.

I would be all for a match with one caliber i don't give a fuck what it is 6 crusader, 260, 338, you pick it up setting limits on gear and equipment doens't cripple it enhances the competition because all you hot rod caliber loving fools would worry less about what caliber you have and more about how you shoot. 308 would be fun because it forces you to use ability, forces you to have to be able to read wind, forces you to worry about your fundamentals, instead of having a round that gives you the room to be sloppy. you can agree or not more power to ya. it makes me sick to watch people on here tell newbies to buy hot rod caliber guns for their first gun. too many people on here need to worry less about their having the biggest baddest thing out there and honestly just shoot some barrels out. you'll have more fun and your pocket book will be a bit more full.

 

[Black-X]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hopefully I can do this without pissing too many folks off.

Todays Tactical Matches are a game that has evolved from Sniper type training/shooting. Like any game many competitors use every advantage to get an edge on the competition. This is normal and what drive better gear. In competition, competitors usually dont worry much about life of equipment, they simple want what works best during the competition.

Under current ways most matches are run the 308win is at a disadvantage to the better ballistically available calibers, such as the various 6mm,6.5s and 7wsm. Anyone competing with a 308 against these calibers is hurting themself because if you are an equal shooter to a man with a better caliber he will normally out score you. This is wlel demonstrated in F TR Class ( 308) versus F Open ( anything up to 338 Lapua) We often have one or two guys who will run with the Open Scores but as an average the better calibers will score higher.

Now many compete as training and dont really care if they dont win everything. I applaud the guys who use 308 in these matches and do so to train to be a better sniper/shooter but I dont have any problem with the guy who uses the 6mm wasso or what ever if it gets him an advantage and rules allow it.

Now what is best after the great training matches give, to me at least is the equipment improvements. Just like IPSC did for 1911s Tactical Matches are finding new ways to improve gear all the time </div></div>

Well said sir.

To me it simply boils down to a larger window for error shooting a .308 against the flatter shooting, wind bucking calibers. Our team runs .308 because right now we have to. We've won matches with .308s but I'm happy that .260s are in our near future.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Exactly how is using a better cartridge make it no longer a test of marksmanship? I can miss with a 6.5 as easily as with a 7.62x51 NATO. Don't like it, don't go. </div></div>

I couldn't make you see my side of this any more than I'll ever see yours... but don't worry, I'm going bro so be sure to look for me

. I didn't start the thread or ask the question but at the end of the day this will always be an apples to oranges comparison...military vs non in a tactical venue. I don't necessarily like or agree with it but it won't force me to join the herd nor dampen my enthusiam for the craft any more than it would make me leap from a bridge. My only response is not to ooooh and ahhhhh just because something is supposed to be new and better. I just don't see it that way.

 

[25MAN]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">308 is outclassed that is for sure, but i have to agree that the playing fields should be leveled a bit more. what started out as LEO and MIL getting together to train and improve tactics is quickly turning into what drag racing or any other high end sport and the guy with the hottest caliber just crushes the new comer becuase he can hold center mass teh entire way out and just pull the trigger.

I would be all for a match with one caliber i don't give a fuck what it is 6 crusader, 260, 338, you pick it up setting limits on gear and equipment doens't cripple it enhances the competition because all you hot rod caliber loving fools would worry less about what caliber you have and more about how you shoot. 308 would be fun because it forces you to use ability, forces you to have to be able to read wind, forces you to worry about your fundamentals, instead of having a round that gives you the room to be sloppy. you can agree or not more power to ya. it makes me sick to watch people on here tell newbies to buy hot rod caliber guns for their first gun. too many people on here need to worry less about their having the biggest baddest thing out there and honestly just shoot some barrels out. you'll have more fun and your pocket book will be a bit more full. </div></div>

I have never had to learn NOT to read the wind when shooting the other calibers...sure instead of 1.5 mils hold on a full value wind at 10 mph at 800 yds I am holding 3/4 mils with my 7mm but still have to account for the wind or its a miss either way. You still need to be good at milling for UKD matches, you still need to account for the high angle shots...just in a different way...so i don't fall for the crap that to be a better shooter you need to shoot a .308 it offers different challenges but either you are fundamentally sound or yoru are not and regardless of teh rifle you will not shoot well if you don't have the basics down. They do have .308 only matches so what you mention above does occur to where the playing field is leveled out which I am sure you know.

 

[tylerw02]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Exactly how is using a better cartridge make it no longer a test of marksmanship? I can miss with a 6.5 as easily as with a 7.62x51 NATO. Don't like it, don't go. </div></div>

I couldn't make you see my side of this any more than I'll ever see yours... but don't worry, I'm going bro so be sure to look for me

. I didn't start the thread or ask the question but at the end of the day this will always be an apples to oranges comparison...military vs non in a tactical venue. I don't necessarily like or agree with it but it won't force me to join the herd nor dampen my enthusiam for the craft any more than it would make me leap from a bridge. My only response is not to ooooh and ahhhhh just because something is supposed to be new and better. I just don't see it that way. </div></div>

Supposed to be new and better? What I dial in my scope doesn't lie

It IS better. Have you ever run a match or spent a couple days shooting 6.5s next to .308s? Embrace the better mousetrap. You'll thank me later.

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

i have 3 260's and 3 308's i shoot my 308's more then i do the others, i have a 6CM coming, i have a 338LM too.

if i wanted the better round why shoot anything but 338 or some other screaming huge round that unless the wind is 20mph plus you don't have to hold shit? that isn't skill, i can teach a monkey to lay prone and hit a target, that isn't skill i don't care. shoot while your breathing hard, shoot while your wearing body armor, if you want to shoot a "tactical" match make it tactical. that makes about as much sense in teh civilian world as you guys having cami'd rifles that you dont' even hunt with. you guys choose to walk a fine line and pick and chose what you guys call tacical. whatever makes you feel high speed have at it.

 

[25MAN]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

Because in the competitions I shoot in it is a 30 cal max

and just to clarify I am not debating what is called "Tactical" thats an agrument i could careless about...I am only debating the fact that the .308 is outdated

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

lol touche

 

[Tactical]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

Hey brother just because a 6mm flies better in wind than a 308 does not mean its better tactically. Hit something at distance with a small 6mm versus a 30 cal and see how life changes quick when caliber increases. Eind cheating does not mean killing ability.

Add barrier penetration and you may see why that old black tipped 30cal round was so well liked for last seventy years.

My 308 TIS rifle now has right at 5000 rounds through the barrel. Yesterday with my old faithful load of 44.0 H4895 and 155 Scenars I shot a five shot .30 moa group with it. Go GAP Go.

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

dude if your talking to me your preaching to the choir, i love me some 308

 

[Tactical]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

Sorry Joe, that was directed at guy who said to shoot the smaller calibers next to 308s for awhile and you would change, not you

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: Is .308 outclassed as a tactical match caliber?

copy