consistent bullet seating readings??

[timelinex]

I've moved onto the testing different bullet seatings portion of my load development, and it was a nightmare! I was trying to get the readings down to within a .001", since its bullet seating itself that is being tested, and it took me hours to make 20 rounds.

I am using a forster competition seater and a Sinclair Hex Style Bullet Comparator. I got the comparator because of encountering inconsistent OAL readings, and reading that the only accurate way of measuring is using the ogive. Well even with the comporator, readings are really hard.

Using 175smk's it doesn't seem like the ogive is exactly in the same place and the bullets aren't perfectly symmetrical enough to fit snug with no wobble.. Also, the face of the brass itself is definitely not even. So I would have to sit there and keep turning the round until I came onto the lowest reading and I took that reading. How am I supposed to get a fairly accurate reading when all components involved are not machined precisely?

Going from one round to another, I had to adjust up to 3mm(or whatever the 3 dashes on the die is equivalent to).

Have I been doing something wrong? Anyone else have problems like this? I thought I bought all the right tools to not experience these problems.

 

[Helmet]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

I used to spend hours trying to achieve perfection. Your right, bullets aren't all the same. Eventually I had to set a reasonable tolerance. I figured they were going to vary .003" overall and so I just group them with other loaded rounds that come out the same length. Their is a sweet spot for jump and it's bigger than .003". Just try and get them all within .003-.005" of each other in that sweet spot depending on how picky you want to be. You'll go crazy trying to get them all to .001". I'm using the Hornady Comparator.

 

[timelinex]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

Well it's not that I am expecting accuracy to that degree on my normal loads, it's just since Im testing seating depths I thought it might be a good idea to get it as accurate as possible for the test. I'm testing .015 into lands,.01 into lands,.005 into lands, kissin lands, .005 jump,.015 jump and .025 jump.

I'm not sure why everyone recommends using a comporator instead if just using the meplat.... Seems just as inaccurate!

 

[Helmet]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

I'm not one to judge about getting bullet lengths down to the .001". It's something I know I put too much energy into. Having a few thousands difference still bothers me even if I know they shoot the same.
I don't know how much into the lands you can seat a bullet before it will begin pushing the bullet into the shell when you close the bolt.
I don't have much experience with Sierra, but the O-give on Bergers and Hornadys are far more consistent than the OAL. Before I got a comparator I would just about go mad trying to get them the same length. Even if I loaded them the same overall length the jump will be different as I would seat a longer bullet into the shell farther than a shorter one creating a greater distance between the lands and the O-give. Even if the bullets are a different length it shouldn't matter as long as they are the same length to the O-give.
I've always heard that Sierras had goofed up meplats. If they are that inconsistent than their is no way measuring them to the meplats could have the accuracy you are looking for.

 

[CleanMoostang]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

All I reload with is SMK's (175gr .308) and I never have consistency. I reload mine just to the length they will fit in my box magazine which is 2.846 but size down to 2.836 considering the inconsistency of the SMK bullet and to make sure they dont rub the box.

Been like this since Ive been using them for reloading...

 

[timelinex]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

I've shot 60+ rounds with the bullets seated .01 into the lands with no problems. I set up the seating die by seating a couple and adjusting it to where most are within .003 or so.

This last batch I meticulously slaved over the rounds to make sure they were within .01, adjusting the die again and again. The result is thy 4 out of 21 rounds were so long that Bolt close was very rough and taking the round our revealed long marks from the lands. This is all rounds that were supposedly farther from the lands then my last 60+ rounds...

Lesson learned.... Forster micrometer seater is much more proficient at consistent seating than measuring with a comparator method.

 

[Helmet]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

I've never used a Sinclair bullet comparator, but it sounds like they don't work very good. I haven't had any trouble with my Hornady bullet comparator, but it's very different. I'm glad your Forster works that well. I just got a Wilson. I will have to see if it's that accurate.

 

[427Cobra]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

Me thinks you have too much neck tension and probably need to anneal your brass.

 

[gaefcke]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

I've done the very same thing with my loads, on trying to get a very low tolerance within .001 +\-. spent a lot of time just getting one load together. After going down to the range one time with those loads. Just trying to eliminate all possibilities of malfunction and leaving it to the shooter and put them up against ones that had +\- .003 they shot with in what i can hold on the target. So I went back on what my drill sergeant said "Lower your standards, raise your average." I stopped worrying about getting that perfect bullet and concentrated on me driving the rifle.

 

[timelinex]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Me thinks you have too much neck tension and probably need to anneal your brass. </div></div>

According to measurements I'm between .001 and .002 in neck tension... My necks are not turned though so it will obviously vary. Also, this is all once fired brass... So I don't see why they would need annealing.

Why do you believe my problems are associated with neck tension or annealing?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmchairElite</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've never used a Sinclair bullet comparator, but it sounds like they don't work very good. I haven't had any trouble with my Hornady bullet comparator, but it's very different. I'm glad your Forster works that well. I just got a Wilson. I will have to see if it's that accurate. </div></div>
Maybe I'll have to sell this one off and try the hornady. I was gonna go with the hornady in the first place, but this is all they had at my local shop and I figured most anything sinclair is usually good.

 

[Helmet]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: timelinex</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmchairElite</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've never used a Sinclair bullet comparator, but it sounds like they don't work very good. I haven't had any trouble with my Hornady bullet comparator, but it's very different. I'm glad your Forster works that well. I just got a Wilson. I will have to see if it's that accurate. </div></div>
Maybe I'll have to sell this one off and try the hornady. I was gonna go with the hornady in the first place, but this is all they had at my local shop and I figured most anything sinclair is usually good. </div></div>Sinclair usually is good so I would have thought the same thing. You have obviously put alot of time and effort into trying to make it work properly though, so it may just not be a very good product.

 

[timelinex]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

Accidently posted my OCW results here, instead of my other thread. Check my OCW thread to see the results of the seating tests!

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

Hey! Noobs! Quit bashing Sinclair! There is nothing wrong with the Sinclair "nut" unless it is the nut using it wrong. It functions as it is supposed to, it like any other simply provides a reference point and it will be consistent if you do your part.
Congratulations. You are the first people I have ever seen that found a problem with Sinclair tools. They have a reputation of being some of the best in the business.

 

[timelinex]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey! Noobs! Quit bashing Sinclair! There is nothing wrong with the Sinclair "nut" unless it is the nut using it wrong. It functions as it is supposed to, it like any other simply provides a reference point and it will be consistent if you do your part.
Congratulations. You are the first people I have ever seen that found a problem with Sinclair tools. They have a reputation of being some of the best in the business. </div></div>
There isn't any bashing going on, their reputation is why I bought the tool on their brand without prior research..

It's a very simple tool, it would be pretty hard to messup using it. Just because I said I want to try a different brands tool Doesn't make it worse of a tool... Just different. This tool might not be the best in one situation but the best for the next one.

Let me know if you think I somehow misused it...

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

It is a very easy tool to mess up using if you are not paying attention, It has 6 sides and a caliber for each side. But if one is reloading one should be paying attention.

There are always inconsistencies in bullets and brass and a man who vexes himself over .001" difference in seating depth may be crippled too high for crutches.

Stop fretting over minutia and find a load that shoots with reasonable expectations for your rig. Sierra bullets do not respond well to being jammed or confined in the chamber. They respond well to jumps in excess of .025". I usually load mine to at least .015". I have shot many thousands of SMK bullets and NONE responded without a significant jump. If you have enough jump, that .005" inconsistency will not matter. You admit freely they shoot the same despite your efforts.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

I may have been a bit hasty in my view of Sinclair bashing, but the conversation seemed to be heading that way and I intended to nip it in the bud.

 

[Helmet]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey! Noobs! Quit bashing Sinclair! There is nothing wrong with the Sinclair "nut" unless it is the nut using it wrong. It functions as it is supposed to, it like any other simply provides a reference point and it will be consistent if you do your part.
Congratulations. You are the first people I have ever seen that found a problem with Sinclair tools. They have a reputation of being some of the best in the business. </div></div>Do you really find it necessary to talk to people you don't know that way? Just because a company has a great reputation doesn't mean that every item they have ever produced has been without flaw. In fact, no reputable company would ever claim to have a perfect record for never having a single part slip through their quality control, however few that may be overall. This is one of the reasons why good companies also have good return policies, which Sinclair does. Also, I didn't say it was a bad product. I simply stated that it was a possibility.
If you had just pointed out that Sinclair has a great reputation I don't think anyone would have contested that fact. Resorting to totally unprovoked name calling while people try and figure out the reason for bullet measurement inconsistency is immature at best .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I may have been a bit hasty in my view of Sinclair bashing, but the conversation seemed to be heading that way and I intended to nip it in the bud. </div></div>Thank's for nipping it in the bud. It was really getting out of control there before you put your foot down and squashed it

.

 

[Fester47]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

What I have seen help is setting the die and with the loaded round in the die with press ram all the way up, back the locking nut off with the tension of the round on the stem and tightening the nut. The seating stems have play and the tension on the stem helps alighn and takes the slack out.
That is how I look at it.

 

[Fester47]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

And sometimes I seat the bullet and rotate the round half way and seat again. Its a OCD thing.

 

[1J04]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bryce6750</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And sometimes I seat the bullet and rotate the round half way and seat again. Its a OCD thing. </div></div>

Duh.... Page six of the HornyDay Reloading Manual for OCD Like Minded Individuals. I mean really, doesn't everyone do that?

Except I like to seat juuuust about fully, "then" give it a turn to finish her off. See page 7 under "Home Made Concentricity Gauge". I knew I wasn't the only one.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

Anyone who hopes seating part way and turning before completing would likely be disappointed if they checked run-out at each stage. Bullet seating plugs just aren't fitted tightly enough to correct a bullet that's already started in off axis.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

"Do you really find it necessary to talk to people you don't know that way?"


Yes, especially when they talk about things they know nothing about and use such phrases as this:
"I've never used a Sinclair bullet comparator, but it sounds like they don't work very good."

And this:
"I'm not one to judge about getting bullet lengths down to the .001". It's something I know I put too much energy into. Having a few thousands difference still bothers me even if I know they shoot the same."


Indeed your words betray you. As always around here there are too many blind leading the blind.

At least you picked the correct Hide handle.

 

[Helmet]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is a very easy tool to mess up using if you are not paying attention, It has 6 sides and a caliber for each side. But if one is reloading one should be paying attention.</div></div>I like to give someone the benefit of the doubt that they capable of figuring out that the holes are different sizes for a reason. Why you would infer that the OP was making this mistake without even asking him first would indicate that you believe that you have quite alot of incite into what the problem is considering you were not even there. It seems you hold other peoples ability in very low regard.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Do you really find it necessary to talk to people you don't know that way?"


Yes, especially when they talk about things they know nothing about and use such phrases as this:
"I've never used a Sinclair bullet comparator, but it sounds like they don't work very good."</div></div>It's not fair for me to assume that someone is using a part incorrectly when I have know way of knowing this as I am not there. It is also true that I have no way of knowing that the part doesn't work very good since I am not there. I am more than willing to apologize to the part if you are willing to apologize to the OP. If you were having difficulty getting something to work the way it was advertised I don't think that you would appreciate someone explaining the problem to you by questioning your intelligence over the internet. People ask questions on the Hide for help, not insults.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And this:
"I'm not one to judge about getting bullet lengths down to the .001". It's something I know I put too much energy into. Having a few thousands difference still bothers me even if I know they shoot the same."


Indeed your words betray you. As always around here there are too many blind leading the blind.

At least you picked the correct Hide handle.
</div></div>I'm not exactly sure why you chose this quote. If I strive to get my bullets to tight tolerances do you find it offensive in some way? If you feel that the blind are in fact leading the blind then why don't you provide the sight that you imply you have instead of condemnation? Even a blind man won't follow a man who insults him.
I actually kinda like your name. I'm somewhat surprised that someone who shows a sense of humor in their own name would attempt to take a shot at somebody elses.

 

[arnie19]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

I dont have the seating problem some seem to .All my loads will be within .003 in length but it might be because i read an instruction sheet from a set of Lee dies .There seating dies do not crimp and you need to make the shell holder hit the bottom of the die and adjust the seating depth by the screw on top.If you use an over the center camming type press you will get various seating depth because of the play in the levers .Lee presses also have a mechanical stop so you can set them up high enough so they do not crimp.Arnie

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmchairElite</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is a very easy tool to mess up using if you are not paying attention, It has 6 sides and a caliber for each side. But if one is reloading one should be paying attention.</div></div>I like to give someone the benefit of the doubt that they capable of figuring out that the holes are different sizes for a reason. Why you would infer that the OP was making this mistake without even asking him first would indicate that you believe that you have quite alot of incite into what the problem is considering you were not even there. It seems you hold other peoples ability in very low regard.
<span style="color: #FF0000"> I did not infer that the OP was making this mistake, I INFERRED that this mistake COULD be made. </span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Do you really find it necessary to talk to people you don't know that way?"


Yes, especially when they talk about things they know nothing about and use such phrases as this:
"I've never used a Sinclair bullet comparator, but it sounds like they don't work very good."</div></div>It's not fair for me to assume that someone is using a part incorrectly when I have know way of knowing this as I am not there. It is also true that I have no way of knowing that the part doesn't work very good since I am not there. I am more than willing to apologize to the part if you are willing to apologize to the OP. If you were having difficulty getting something to work the way it was advertised I don't think that you would appreciate someone explaining the problem to you by questioning your intelligence over the internet. People ask questions on the Hide for help, not insults.
<span style="color: #FF0000">Any bullet comparator is an extremely simple tool. It is one of the simplest functions a reloader will perform in the grand scheme of loading ammunition. I DID explain in my second post here that being so precise was much ado over nothing of which you yourself admitted. One cannot eliminate every possible inconsistency but must concentrate on the important ones. Those mentioned here are NOT important unless you are shooting benchrest competitions and possibly not even for those. OP if I have offended you I sincerly appologize. Mr. Elite if I have offended you please send me your address and I will forward a tube of Vagisil free of charge. </span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And this:
"I'm not one to judge about getting bullet lengths down to the .001". It's something I know I put too much energy into. Having a few thousands difference still bothers me even if I know they shoot the same."


Indeed your words betray you. As always around here there are too many blind leading the blind.

At least you picked the correct Hide handle.
</div></div>I'm not exactly sure why you chose this quote. If I strive to get my bullets to tight tolerances do you find it offensive in some way? If you feel that the blind are in fact leading the blind then why don't you provide the site that you imply you have instead of condemnation? Even a blind man won't follow a man who insults him.
I actually kinda like your name. I'm somewhat surprised that someone who shows a sense of humor in their own name would attempt to take a shot at somebody elses. </div></div>

<span style="color: #FF0000">I do provide quite a bit of useful information on this site but am often drowned out by static of the Herd. I do not find your methods of exacting tolerances for bullet seating offensive at all. It does not affect me in the least. I couldn't care less whether it takes you 20 minutes or 20 hours to load 20 rounds. I would however like for you to have an enjoyable loading experience rather than it becoming a chore, and that is what it will be if one gets too caught up in nit picking the minutia of handloading. It is true I am not a patient man when I see the same things showing up in the loading section week after week. This sublect has been done to death but again it is the first time I have seen anyone find fault with a comparator because they can't get their distance to the lands down to an exact science. Maybe I will send Tripwire a PM invite to this thread and you may find someone who minces words much less than me. </span>

 

[Helmet]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

armorpl8chikn: I really never had anything against you, I only felt the need to defend my words. If we are done with this little dispute then I would prefer to have civil discourse with you from now on just as I prefer to have with everyone on this site.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

Sounds good to me. We shall endeavor to persevere in a civil manner

 

[John_M]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

timelinex, I have the same inconsistent seating results you are experiencing. Like you, the inconsistencies sometimes drive me partly nuts.
My related equipment consists of Co-Ax press, Hornady Comparator for measuring base to ogive, Matsutoyo digital caliper measuring to the nearst five ten thousandths (.0005) of an inch, Forster and Redding competition seating dies, and RCBS Universal hand primer. All brass are trimmed to the same length and all primers are checked to be certain they are fully seated below the base of the brass. The base of each piece of brass is checked for dust, etc, which might give a false base to ogive reading.
All manufacturers probably produce a few bullets in every batch which have an ogive very slightly different than others in that same batch. However, that should not change the base to ogive length we are trying to achieve. The Cartridge Overall Length might be different from one round to the other but the base to ogive length should be the same.
I have used Forster, Hornady, Lyman and Lee rings on the Forster and Redding seaters. The inconsistencies have not improved.
I also have a Lee Classic Cast Breech Lock Single Stage Press(great press). I will soon be ordering a Redding Big Boss II single stage press. During the next month or so I will be loading a bunch of rounds to determine if either or both of these two presses provides more consistent base to ogive lengths than the Co-Ax.
I don't shoot competitively but do like to produce the best ammo possible.
Hopefully,I will report the results of this seating experiment with the Lee and Redding presses.

 

[Bill Larson]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

full length resize brass....bump shoulder back .001"/.003"
for accuracy: soft seat your bullets .020" long......let the lands in your rifle seat bullet back into case.....
for battle: crimp bullets
bill larson

 

[targaflorio]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill Larson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
for accuracy: soft seat your bullets .020" long......let the lands in your rifle seat bullet back into case.....
</div></div> yes, agreed. Be careful if you go to extract a live round, the bullet might stick in the barrel and spill powder all over your action.
My inconsistency in measurement comes from the alignment of the round and comparator in the calipers. I tend to manipulate the rig so as to give me the minimum length measurable.

 

[targaflorio]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: timelinex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well it's not that I am expecting accuracy to that degree on my normal loads, it's just since Im testing seating depths I thought it might be a good idea to get it as accurate as possible for the test. I'm testing .015 into lands,.01 into lands,.005 into lands, kissin lands, .005 jump,.015 jump and .025 jump.

I'm not sure why everyone recommends using a comporator instead if just using the meplat.... Seems just as inaccurate! </div></div>
http://02b0516.netsolhost.com/blog1/2009...-in-your-rifle/
Eric Steckler article on jump for VLDs and how far apart before it makes a difference.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill Larson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">full length resize brass....bump shoulder back .001"/.003"
for accuracy: <span style="color: #FF0000">soft seat your bullets .020" long......let the lands in your rifle seat bullet back into case.....</span>for battle: crimp bullets
bill larson </div></div>

The red is the only thing here I will not agree with. I am not so sure you will get maximum accuracy with any rifle and bullet combo, as has been stated in the broadest terms.
I can almost guarantee, you WILL shoot the round that is chambered in such a manner, or you will be picking powder kernels from your action, and knocking bullets out of your throat with a cleaning rod. I would not reccomend this even in a match, as when cease fire is called, and you have a round chambered, you are shit out of luck.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

Guys, I think it's time to sit back for a sec and think about the importance of what everybody is bitching about. Opinions. Reloading is supposed to be fun and the "noobs" shouldn't have to be talked to like they always seem to be on this site. Everyone is here to learn not get talked to like by you "snipers hide veterans" like a bunch of idiots. Remember, everybody has to begin asking questions and trying to learn as much as they can. Although I'm starting to think that some hide members came out of the womb with a sniper rifle, ghillie suit, and a twin brother to act as spotter.

 

[boltgunluvr]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

Please don't make it hard on yourself. It will take all the fun out of it. Load to magazine length and see what you get. Then go from there.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aimsmall55</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Although I'm starting to think that some hide members came out of the womb with a sniper rifle, ghillie suit, and a twin brother to act as spotter. </div></div>

Stirring the pot?
Armchair and I have kissed and made up its done, but somehow you needed to throw in a barb.

I do not own a Sniper rifle, a ghillie suit nor do I have a twin brother and I have never given advice on any one of the 3. I have however been handloading for 30 plus years and do get a bit cranky when people don't do their due diligence using a search function, before posting a question that has quite frankly been posted every damn week since I joined the hide.
Did you have anything pertinent to add or did you simply want to poke the dog?

OP if I have offended you then accept my appologies.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Re: consistent bullet seating readings??

Oh come on.... That comment was all in good fun. Relax, I was just saying that all too often new members get bashed for asking a simple question. That's all. My appologies.