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Suppressors Class III NFA Trusts

K

King45

Private
Minuteman
Jun 5, 2012
17
0
55
Gentlemen,

I recently read a thread regarding gun trust, Quicken forms etc. I want to clarify something quickly and briefly, to the benefit of my fellow shooters. Please keep in mind:

1) A trust is a legal document, a dealer helping you fill out a form or advising you that the form is even "acceptable" is committing the unlicensed practice of law and can be punished;

2) Just because NFA branch approves your Form 1 or Form 4 application with your quicken form trust attached DOES NOT MEAN YOUR TRUST IS VALID. When you submit your form with your Trust attached the NFA government employees are only looking to see if the trust name matches the name on the form 1 or 4 and whether the serial number of the application item is listed by serial number as an asset of the trust in the attached Scheduled A Declaration of Ownership, whether there is a beneficiary - THAT'S ALL - it does NOT mean ATF approved the TRUST as legally valid. They don't know the laws of the state of origin nor are the reading the entire trust.

3) The only way you will know whether your gun trust is valid is the day that ATF comes knocking on your door and wants to look up your butt with a microscope and that is when they will scrutinize your trust with their lawyers, and that is when it better be bulletproof under the controlling state law in which it was drafted. The price for an attorney drafted trust (from an attorney who knows NFA law) is well worth the peace of mind that it provides. A form trust is like running around a gun fight without armor. Sure you can do it, but you're not really protected.

4) A dealer that brags that his trust forms have been approved countless times, is missing the target about what that even means.

Yes I am a lawyer, yes I do NFA gun trusts, but most of you guys are not in my state anyway I don't image, so I don't regard this as a solicitation of business. Just trying to clear up some obvious legal confusion.

Have a nice day.
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

Please cite for me the instances where the BATFE has shown up at someone's door and either arrested, detained, prosecuted, and/or confiscated the trust possessions as a result of using Quicken Will maker. Along those lines, I'd like to know the details of those occurrences and why the ATF chose to act. It seems to me if the ATF found that quicken had some fundamental flaw anyone from that state that used will maker would be receiving either a letter or a knock at the door. Why is that not the case?
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

There was indeed a prosecution sought on the east coast based on an invalid Quicken Trust. I am sure it was some other violation that brought the man to their attention - not that they were policing the NFA Trusts at random. I don't know the name of the case, and don't know if I will bother looking it up, but the NFA branch agent I spoke to face to face at NFA booth at the SHOT Show in Vegas this year confirmed the same. Keep in mind it doesn't mean every Quicken Trust is inadequate, it means THAT GUYS Quicken Trust was inadequate. I am sure in SOME cases, under SOME facts it might be sufficient. But as cases, facts, governing state law and the intelligence of the person completing the form may vary, one can only presume, so would the effectiveness of the fill-in-the-blank form.

Let Darwinism work its magic I suppose.
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

No use restarting this debate again IMHO. You make your choices, pay the tab, and take the risks. Don't object if cheap goes wrong!
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

51mQmEPTh5L._SL500_.jpg


Why stop at a trust????

Save a buck...it can't hurt right?

PS. I'm not a lawyer..
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: King45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There was indeed a prosecution sought on the east coast based on an invalid Quicken Trust. I am sure it was some other violation that brought the man to their attention - not that they were policing the NFA Trusts at random. I don't know the name of the case, and don't know if I will bother looking it up, but the NFA branch agent I spoke to face to face at NFA booth at the SHOT Show in Vegas this year confirmed the same. Keep in mind it doesn't mean every Quicken Trust is inadequate, it means THAT GUYS Quicken Trust was inadequate. I am sure in SOME cases, under SOME facts it might be sufficient. But as cases, facts, governing state law and the intelligence of the person completing the form may vary, one can only presume, so would the effectiveness of the fill-in-the-blank form.

Let Darwinism work its magic I suppose.
</div></div>

Thanks for taking the time to sign up, write a long winded scare tactic post to kick things off, and then do exactly what everyone else preaching this from the mountain top does.

Why dont you differentiate yourself and post links to court cases and hard facts rather than posting hearsay? I'm open minded but I'm only willing to listen when people point to stuff that is concrete.
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m1garand30064</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: King45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There was indeed a prosecution sought on the east coast based on an invalid Quicken Trust. I am sure it was some other violation that brought the man to their attention - not that they were policing the NFA Trusts at random. I don't know the name of the case, and don't know if I will bother looking it up, but the NFA branch agent I spoke to face to face at NFA booth at the SHOT Show in Vegas this year confirmed the same. Keep in mind it doesn't mean every Quicken Trust is inadequate, it means THAT GUYS Quicken Trust was inadequate. I am sure in SOME cases, under SOME facts it might be sufficient. But as cases, facts, governing state law and the intelligence of the person completing the form may vary, one can only presume, so would the effectiveness of the fill-in-the-blank form.

Let Darwinism work its magic I suppose.
</div></div>

Thanks for taking the time to sign up, write a long winded scare tactic post to kick things off, and then do exactly what everyone else preaching this from the mountain top does.

Why dont you differentiate yourself and post links to court cases and hard facts rather than posting hearsay? I'm open minded but I'm only willing to listen when people point to stuff that is concrete. </div></div>

+1

Inform me with facts.... Not hearsay.
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K_4c</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for taking the time to sign up, write a long winded scare tactic post to kick things off, and then do exactly what everyone else preaching this from the mountain top does.

Why dont you differentiate yourself and post links to court cases and hard facts rather than posting hearsay? I'm open minded but I'm only willing to listen when people point to stuff that is concrete. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">+1

Inform me with facts.... Not hearsay. </div></div>

Not facts by any means...but I work with Lawyers every day, and their way of thinking scares the shit out of me. The scary part is that they sit on both sides of the table...not just on yours. And the .gov ones are the worst (they have too much free time).

This was my justification for hiring an attorney. Peace of mind is right.

Disclaimer: I'm not an attorney, and have no interest in going to Law School (only after working with so many of them...they're the equivelant of a fat chick at a bar giving me a limp dick)
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

Just because I wonder, I called the NFA branch today. I have a call into Specialist Ashton. Will let you all know what he says when he calls me back.
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

One of the reasons I thought a trust was useful was to provide a means of continuity in the event of the death of the owner.
However, on page 19 of Alan C. Paulson's `Silencer History and Performance, Sporting and Tactical Silencers, Volume 1' he states that (individual ownership) a suppressor can be written into a will and passed on to a family member with no additional transfer tax.
Your comments?
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: d00d</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One of the reasons I thought a trust was useful was to provide a means of continuity in the event of the death of the owner.
However, on page 19 of Alan C. Paulson's `Silencer History and Performance, Sporting and Tactical Silencers, Volume 1' he states that (individual ownership) a suppressor can be written into a will and passed on to a family member with no additional transfer tax.
Your comments? </div></div>

That's true. However, you have to file a Form 5 with the ATF which is unnecessary if the item is in a trust.
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

Just got the phone call back from Ashton. His response was that they scrutinize trusts very well when they get them. Not to say some have made it through that were not valid for some reason or another.

His went on to say that should something happen that would cause the ATF to look at a pre-existing / pre-approved trust, the ATF would make every attempt informally with the owner to get the trust corrected. He was also <span style="text-decoration: underline">not familiar with that situation happening to a pre-existing/ pre-approved trust</span> and went on to say that the ATF would not just sent an agent to the person's house to arrest, detain or take into custody of said NFA item without trying to handle the issue informally.

So basically, if a trust is invalid but makes it through the ATF, their first step will not be coming after the owner criminally or taking your items.
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: King45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The price for an attorney drafted trust (from an attorney who knows NFA law) is well worth the peace of mind that it provides.

Yes I am a lawyer, yes I do NFA gun trusts, but most of you guys are not in my state anyway I don't image, so I don't regard this as a solicitation of business. Just trying to clear up some obvious legal confusion.
</div></div>

I just spoke to my Attorney, his wife who is also an attorney, and a Deputy Prosecuting Attorney since I have them available and my curiosity wanted clarification. I have issue with that part of your statement in specific. You do NOT need and "NFA" attorney to write a valid trust unless there are specific "NFA" possession laws that require specific verbiage in a trust in that State which any decent attorney should be able to discover. I'd would like for you to cite and reference any federal statute that regulates NFA specific language requirements within a trust or State specific statues within your own State. As you yourself state your an attorney that drafts NFA specific trusts this should be easy enough.
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JTG 1977</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just got the phone call back from Ashton. His response was that they scrutinize trusts very well when they get them. Not to say some have made it through that were not valid for some reason or another.

His went on to say that should something happen that would cause the ATF to look at a pre-existing / pre-approved trust, the ATF would make every attempt informally with the owner to get the trust corrected. He was also <span style="text-decoration: underline">not familiar with that situation happening to a pre-existing/ pre-approved trust</span> and went on to say that the ATF would not just sent an agent to the person's house to arrest, detain or take into custody of said NFA item without trying to handle the issue informally.

So basically, if a trust is invalid but makes it through the ATF, their first step will not be coming after the owner criminally or taking your items. </div></div>

Wow, that sounds completely reasonable and efficient.

At this point, if there was some general flaw that was found with Quicken Willmaker, the federal government would not have the manpower to arrest and prosecute every single one of us that used Quicken to create a trust. Their most efficient course of action is exactly what Mr. Ashton said. If I get a letter from the ATF stating that there is a problem with my trust and I need to get it corrected I would be at an attorneys office the same day. I'd imagine most people would behave the same way as those of us who are willing to go through the rigmarole of purchasing an NFA item are going to be law abiding citizens the vast majority of the time.

If you want an attorney to draft a trust to buy NFA items then go for it. I see nothing wrong with that and if it gives you piece of mind then by all means go ahead. However, I see no evidence that I risk imprisonment or confiscation of my items because I simply used Quicken Willmaker.

So please OP, if it is not too much of a "bother" please cite something concrete that contradicts my position and I'll be happy to reconsider. Until then I'll categorize you with the other fear mongering, agenda driven attorney posters.
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: King45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The price for an attorney drafted trust (from an attorney who knows NFA law) is well worth the peace of mind that it provides.

Yes I am a lawyer, yes I do NFA gun trusts, but most of you guys are not in my state anyway I don't image, so I don't regard this as a solicitation of business. Just trying to clear up some obvious legal confusion.
</div></div>

I just spoke to my Attorney, his wife who is also an attorney, and a Deputy Prosecuting Attorney since I have them available and my curiosity wanted clarification. I have issue with that part of your statement in specific. You do NOT need and "NFA" attorney to write a valid trust unless there are specific "NFA" possession laws that require specific verbiage in a trust in that State which any decent attorney should be able to discover. I'd would like for you to cite and reference any federal statute that regulates NFA specific language requirements within a trust or State specific statues within your own State. As you yourself state your an attorney that drafts NFA specific trusts this should be easy enough.
</div></div>


I had the same reply from my attorney who looked over a trust for me. He has no knowledge of special verbage just because the trust is for a NFA item. In Virginia anyway. He said a trust is a trust, whether it is for land or a NFA item, the language is the same. The NFA trust can be basic and fulfill the requirements whereas a land trust can be complex due to the value.

If this is wrong please show me the proof. IE, links to the law code.
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

I did a revocable living trust for a suppressor and funded it with firearms through an attorney in KY. He does not specialize in NFA Trusts. This isn't rocket-science.
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m14er</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did a revocable living trust for a suppressor and funded it with firearms through an attorney in KY. He does not specialize in NFA Trusts. This isn't rocket-science. </div></div>

Are you actually going to credit a government group..... especially after what they are being accused of on a larger scale, of not being able to mess up?!

It had better be written to perfection if it results in me paying a fee for a document. I also want to pay for it given the lawyer who writes it will have to defend it in court should I need him for some reason. And dont even act like the ATF or NFA wont try and take you to court if they felt like it.

You need to be sure in your investment..... I went lawyer and have zero regrets and I sleep much better at night.
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m14er</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did a revocable living trust for a suppressor and funded it with firearms through an attorney in KY. He does not specialize in NFA Trusts. This isn't rocket-science. </div></div>

Are you actually going to credit a government group..... especially after what they are being accused of on a larger scale, of not being able to mess up?!

It had better be written to perfection if it results in me paying a fee for a document. I also want to pay for it given the lawyer who writes it will have to defend it in court should I need him for some reason. And dont even act like the ATF or NFA wont try and take you to court if they felt like it.

You need to be sure in your investment..... I went lawyer and have zero regrets and I sleep much better at night. </div></div>

I agree with you KY on the Lawyer review, but I have a hard time swallowing everyone preaching "NFA Attorney's". In a majority of States a Trust is valid whether it's written for an NFA item or a non-NFA item with the same verbiage. There may be a few States that have Statutes requiring particular verbiage, but no one seems to be able to provide actual reference to these infamous laws or prior documented cases where a trust was found to be invalid because of the absence of "NFA verbiage" and what that verbiage was. Instead they link to Firm sites, blogs, and other biased articles stating there are incidents but no actual facts to support it other than they claim it to be so. If an Attorney comes on here saying it's so then they of all people should be able to reference it and provide adequate evidence to support their claim.
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m14er</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did a revocable living trust for a suppressor and funded it with firearms through an attorney in KY. He does not specialize in NFA Trusts. This isn't rocket-science. </div></div>

Are you actually going to credit a government group..... especially after what they are being accused of on a larger scale, of not being able to mess up?!

It had better be written to perfection if it results in me paying a fee for a document. I also want to pay for it given the lawyer who writes it will have to defend it in court should I need him for some reason. And dont even act like the ATF or NFA wont try and take you to court if they felt like it.

You need to be sure in your investment..... I went lawyer and have zero regrets and I sleep much better at night. </div></div>


In answer to your question; This is an iron-clad 34 page document written up by one of the biggest firms in the Cinci area. I believe this trust to be beyond reproach.....The language (Articles) goes into ridiculous amounts of detail that covers most if not all instances encountered in life. I wanted an all-encompassing document that also handles NFA items as I think they should be part of my family trust. It is just the way I chose to handle things, that's all...I to, have zero regrets.

Oh, and BTW, I am still impressed by the spotter.....I have never witnessed trace like that.
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

My question is this, if the NFA doesn't know what's correct, then how could the respective trust lawyer?

Is Bubba Joe Lawdegree wiser in the ways of the NFA than it's employees?

. . . just sayin'
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

M'14er made me aware of this thread, thought I would post a few points. If you draft a legal document yourself, or even handle your own lawsuits/court cases, it is NOT the unauthorized practice of law. The practice of law is representing someone else's legal interests, not you own...representing yourself is called acting pro se.

That all being said, there are some good points made in the OP. While anyone can technically handle their own legal stuff (with minor exception of federal court requiring a motion to proceed pro se), that doesn't mean it is going to be done right. I would like to think I didn't spend 4 years in the oblivion that was lawschool, as well as the cess pool that was studying for the first of three bar exams to NOT be able to provide a service that a person can do just as well themselves. I might add that while I have passed the bar, I have not been sworn in yet so I am not an attorney, merely speaking from experience in the legal world. I see people attempt to represent themselves nearly every day in various legal aspects. I haved seen some who actually turned out to be quite good writers, negotiators, and legal tacticians. HOWEVER, the vast majority are really either sad or laughable (the guy who wrote his own affidavit declaring himself to be one true emporer and signed in his own blood was actually scary). I cant even count the number of times I've gotten pro se pleadings/motions stricken because some guy wanted to save a couple hundred dollars and print some "pleadings in a box" off the Internet and file them in a court of law.

On the main topic, don't ever let anyone tell you that you cannot do things yourself when it comes to legal subject matter. But please just keep in mind that, despite the ambulance chaser stereotypes, most all attorneys are incredibly knowledgeable and ethical people. If they don't feel they can honestly do a good job for you, they will find someone for you who can. And chances are better than good that they will do a far better job than you could....and possibly save you money in the long run. I always hear the statement here about not scrimping when it comes to an important piece of equipment, otherwise the cheap alternative will just break down the road and you will have to spend money again. "buy once, cry once." Try to draw an analogy between that and legal advice/representation.

A trust is indeed a trust is indeed a trust. While a trust will be drafted with a primary residence state in mind, the drafter is selling short who does not include provisions for the possibility of the client moving to a different state. Where I live, one state still follows the old common law for trusts, another has adopted a little bit of the Uniform Trust Code, and yet another has adopted it nearly in its entirety. Each presents its own challenges and requirements for maintaining validity in the face of scrutiny/litigation. Also, an attorney should be drafting with the expectation that property other than NFA items will be transferred to the trust, and either include the appropriate language, or at least be clear with the client that amendments may be necessary later to accomplish those goals.

I think I'm done, but am always happy to answer any questions or concerns I may have elicited/provoked. Feel free to shoot me a PM if so.

KY I spotted for M14'er a bit with that spotting scope. Scary clear!
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

A simple question, if I may?

If I have submitted a trust to the NFA based upon the laws of the State of Georgia and it is accepted on the face of the document, then would it not be acceptable upon the part of the NFA if another applicant were to submit the same document, verbatim, with the exception of the requisite name and items changes being made?

See, that is my quandry. Why, if it is purely a legal document of form, is it necessary to have it reviewed by a lawyer if all that is changed are the names and descriptions of the properties?

If, then, therefore, else . . . QED
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

You ready for the inevitable lawyer answer? It depends!

Two guys in the same state/county with same property/income/relationship status are probably going to have very similar language. And yes, once an attorney has drafted a complex document once, he is NOT going to start from scratch each time he does the same thing for a different client. He is going to use his original one as a template of sorts and take chunks of common language to use on subsequent projects. .

However, while there are ways to drop the price of a trust by reducing the level of involvement , there are simply too many points that will vary based on the situs and/or choices and preferences of the client. I can't say I have been doing this for years, but I have drafted a couple dozen trusts for three different states. I can tell you that despite the fact that some clients were similar to others, the final documents NEVER come out the same. (with only name and property changed) I know that my trusts generally have between 11-16 articles, each with 5-25 sections, and multiple schedules attached. The shortest and simplest one I ever drafted was 16 pages not including exhibits, longest was 72. (old guy with a LOT of assets...the tax and trustee duty sections about killed me!)

So I guess to answer the question with another gun analogy is like....ok. Go buy two stock savage 10's with adjacent serial numbers. Mount the same scope, adjust trigger to same weight, shoot same loads out of each, in the exact same conditions. There IS a chance they will shoot identically, correct? Yes! But also a pretty darn good chance they won't, because there will be some tiny hidden variable that you didn't account for or could not control. That's why we buy premium barrels and pay gunsmiths...consistency of quality and knowledge of that of which we are ignorant.
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

I too am a lawyer; although retired.

I would not think of doing my own trust. That was never my area of expertise. Yesterday I hired a lawyer who is experienced in this area and he is preparing the trust papers so the trust can buy a suppressor
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m14er</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m14er</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did a revocable living trust for a suppressor and funded it with firearms through an attorney in KY. He does not specialize in NFA Trusts. This isn't rocket-science. </div></div>

Are you actually going to credit a government group..... especially after what they are being accused of on a larger scale, of not being able to mess up?!

It had better be written to perfection if it results in me paying a fee for a document. I also want to pay for it given the lawyer who writes it will have to defend it in court should I need him for some reason. And dont even act like the ATF or NFA wont try and take you to court if they felt like it.

You need to be sure in your investment..... I went lawyer and have zero regrets and I sleep much better at night. </div></div>


In answer to your question; This is an iron-clad 34 page document written up by one of the biggest firms in the Cinci area. I believe this trust to be beyond reproach.....The language (Articles) goes into ridiculous amounts of detail that covers most if not all instances encountered in life. I wanted an all-encompassing document that also handles NFA items as I think they should be part of my family trust. It is just the way I chose to handle things, that's all...I to, have zero regrets.

Oh, and BTW, I am still impressed by the spotter.....I have never witnessed trace like that. </div></div>

You need to be really careful with lumping your firearms or NFA items into your families trust. That indirectly gives control to your family of said items. You also NEED specific language in the trust when dealing with those NFA items, it makes life less of a headache when the time comes that you are no longer around and the kids are trying to take possession legally. There is no shame in going the lawyer route, I am more comfortable with the document since I had it amended and rewritten.
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

I don't believe there are any court cases. My understanding is that frequently, ATF comes at someone with Thunder and Lightning and then gets a plea to a lesser offense to avoid something worse. ATF doesn't want clear laws and court ruling that define the statutes, I believe they very much prefer the ambiguity and unsettled aire of uncertainty.
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

I think hearsay is probably all you will find. However, I can tell you from a personal experience with a friend that having an encounter with ATF that doesn't end up in conviction still didn't make the experience enjoyable. He would have preferred to do things differently and avoided the whole mess.
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

The agent I spoke with personally (face to face) disagrees with Ashton I guess. He plainly confirmed trusts are not scrutinized at the time the application is submitted. They simply don't have time to run all of those application through a legal analysis especially when the validity of the trust depends on the applicable state law under which it was written. The application approval folks are not lawyers. What he told me makes a lot of sense. Maybe was wrong, but I believed him. As I mentioned before, I don't believe ATF would send agents to your door for arrest, detention or otherwise. As I suggested before, I think the issue will only come up if you get on ATF's radar for some other reason.
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

The NFA law only mentions that trusts can own Class III items. There is no further requirement or instruction at all.

You can stick a class III item in any trust and call it a day if you want. Its legal.

It may leave you with some problems because you haven't addressed the special requirements of that item, like the qualifications of those people that can access the item, contingencies if your trustee or beneficiary gets charged with a felony and is no longer eligible, a declination, an adjudication of mental incompetence, etc. Under what circumstances can the trust sell its assets? Those things done matter if the trust owns a toaster. It matters a lot if it owns a restricted item.
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: King45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The NFA law only mentions that trusts can own Class III items. There is no further requirement or instruction at all.

You can stick a class III item in any trust and call it a day if you want. Its legal.

It may leave you with some problems because you haven't addressed the special requirements of that item, like the qualifications of those people that can access the item, contingencies if your trustee or beneficiary gets charged with a felony and is no longer eligible, a declination, an adjudication of mental incompetence, etc. Under what circumstances can the trust sell its assets? Those things done matter if the trust owns a toaster. It matters a lot if it owns a restricted item. </div></div>

I will keep saying it..... If the trust is not NFA language specific you are leaving to many loose ends and loopholes that they could potentially use against you if and when the grantor/trustee dies.
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

Quicken is perfectly legal. We know that it works well enough to get your application approved. Thousands of approval establish that.

It may or may not protect some guys in some applications if scrutinized.

A lawyer can protect his client in his client's exact situation and needs. Which may be different than yours.

The guy with the attorney (who is up to speed on NFA law) is probably better off that the guy who without.

To each his own. I have no ill feelings for the guys that want to go it alone. I don't post my opinions in an effort to get clients - hell these guys are from all over the country - I just post it because I genuinely believe a properly drafted trust - specific to the needs of an NFA item and specific to the client - is better than a do-it-yourself-fill-in-the-blank version. Not saying it won't work. Its about better, safer, custom work.
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

True enough - any attorney can do it. The more experience drafting such things the better, but any attorney can do it.
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

True. A trust is trust. If you are going to put an elephant in a trust, you probably need some additional language to address its specific needs than if you are going to put a 40 acre piece of land in the trust. A trust is a trust from a legal sense of the word. A well written trust addresses the specific aspects, characteristics and needs of the trust assets. Can the car in your trust cross state lines without ATF paperwork? Sure. Can your Class III item? No. Your trustee should probably be advised of that within the body of the trust limitation paragraph for example.
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

You can't "cite" to law to explain how to draft a document that serves your client better than a computer generated form.
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

One clarification: A guy drafting his own documents or filling in the blanks of a computer generated document is acting pro se, representing himself, which is fine. A gun dealer that gives the buyer the form and says "this is all you need" may be considered to be giving legal advice and HE may be the one "practicing law without a license". Jim - Do you agree?
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

I know . . . but I was answering them in order as I scrolled down. I was in a meeting and trying to be subtle . . . Hell, I'm the one that called the meeting and I'm the one chatting on line during the meeting !! ha ha ha
 
Re: Class III NFA Trusts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You could have fit all of that into one post..... </div></div>

+12... lol
 
This was a good thread, so I am going to resurrect it. I'll preface with the fact that I am an attorney and I draft NFA trusts in Arizona. I've drafted hundreds of NFA trusts and never had one rejected by ATF, nor had one had problems in court. Here's the scoop, there are lots of attorneys (and other non-attorney trust salesmen) that pump a lot of fear in order to sell trusts. That's not me. It is certainly true that a good trust template will work for lots of people, probably even most, but it will not "work" for people with special or unique circumstances, or those that want special provisions in their trust. On that note, I disagree that a trust is a trust is a trust, but I understand the logic and argument behind it. A trust doesn't have all that many legal requirements in order to legally exist - there are 11 in Arizona. As such, a legally compliant trust is just as legally compliant trust as any other legally compliant trust. No doubt. But legal compliance is the bare minimum threshold, many people want a trust that does more than the bare minimum. As an example, a gun doesn't have to have a lot of bells and whistles, or quality, to be a "gun" either, right? A Jimenez Arms .380 is a "gun" just like a Barrett M82 is a "gun," but they are very different guns and are used for very different purposes. The same is true with trusts, not all trusts are equal. You should buy one that meets your situation, needs, and goals. If you want one that will simply pass ATF muster, ie. simply legally compliant, that is easy to do. If you want one that will exist for multiple generations (say 500 years), one that has multiple trustees in multiple states, one that disinherits a certain child, one that gives uneven distributions to your chosen beneficiaries, one that deals with estate or gift taxes, or one that can potentially protect your entire firearms collection against future government bans, that is a different story. There are many things a gun trust CAN do that are above and beyond bare legal compliance. If none of that matters to you, a simple form-type trust will work for you then.

As for citations or court records showing a deficient Quicken Willmaker Trust, you probably will never find one. That is not because it hasn't happened (maybe it has, maybe it hasn't), it is because of the nature of the trial and appeals process. A court case only becomes precedent once the trial decision has been appealed, the appellate court made a ruling, and the appellate court wanted the ruling to be published in the court reporters (if it isn't published, it can't be cited). As such, initial arrests, charges, convictions, and appeals are nearly always unknown to everyone that is not immediately involved in the process. In our world, unless a court case makes the news, no one ever knows about it. If it doesn't make the news, and it wasn't published in the court reporters, there is almost no way to ever find any record about the case if you were not directly involved in the first case. As such, finding record of a deficient trust (a standard estate planning trust, or a gun trust) will probably never be easy to find, even if it does happen. That's just how the court reporting system works.

Drafting your own legal document is fine. Nothing wrong with that at all, assuming you have the knowledge and skill to do so competently. Drafting a legal document for someone else, or helping them draft it if you are not an attorney or legal document preparer authorized by the state you are in, is illegal in all 50 states. It is the unauthorized practice of law. I know quite a few gun dealers that draft gun trusts for their clients and I have never understood that. I would never have my CPA repair my car, why would I go to a gun salesman to draft a legal document? That said, I would venture to say that more gun shop gun trusts are legally compliant (ie the bare minimum), but they certainly don't have any advanced bells and whistles, such as lasting for generation after generation without any transfers or ATF involvement.

My website: Arizona Gun Law
 
Oh and one more thing, I don't think the ATF coming and scrutinizing your gun trust years after initial approval is really the issue as brought up in the OP, (although that could happen I suppose, but it probably very unlikely), the real issue is what happens to your gun trust and its assets when you die. That is the real test and there is no question on if that will happen. Does your trust die when you die? Probably, in most cases. Then the successor trustee has to transfer any NFA firearms on an ATF form 5 to the beneficiaries. If the trust doesn't give direction, will the successor trustee (or spouse) know what do to? Or will they just give the firearms to whomever is supposed to have them and say "here you go?" If so, that is a problem - then they are possessing NFA firearms that are not registered to them. Could they rectify that after the fact, possibly so, but it may be a big pain the butt several years later. What happens if the beneficiaries are in another state? Will the successor trustee know how to handle that problem if the trust provides no direction? Will they even know it is a problem that needs to be dealt with? What happens if you have two NFA firearms in the trust, and three children who are beneficiaries? How will that get resolved? Do you care after you die? Or what happens if there are two or more beneficiaries and they don't agree with how the successor trustee divided things? What if they simply can't get along and one of them sues the other? How confident are you that the trust will do what you want/think once lawyers start arguing in front of a judge about what the trust says and means? These, and many others like them, are all issues that a good gun trust will deal with. A bare bones gun trust probably won't address these issues. Of course, the more assets that are in a trust, the more this stuff matters. I have clients that have assets worth more than $1,000,000.00 in their gun trust - this stuff matters a great deal then. If you have one crappy aluminum Huntertown Arms 22 can in the trust, no one cares. Food for thought.
 
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