Which dies and procedure produce the best 223 bolt gun rounds?
- Thread starter SporterII
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Re: Best Die Features For 223
Well, you're asking for secret information about the best dies but I'll tell you anyway; on average, the die brand really doesn't make a lot of difference and there is certainly no secret choice of dies for any caliber in bolt guns. Not that a lot of people won't insist their own preference is the very "best". But skill and load development is far more important for accuracy than the brand of dies - or press, or scale, or ....
For the 'best procedure', that would take a book. Several are already writen so I won't repeat that.
Well, you're asking for secret information about the best dies but I'll tell you anyway; on average, the die brand really doesn't make a lot of difference and there is certainly no secret choice of dies for any caliber in bolt guns. Not that a lot of people won't insist their own preference is the very "best". But skill and load development is far more important for accuracy than the brand of dies - or press, or scale, or ....
For the 'best procedure', that would take a book. Several are already writen so I won't repeat that.
Re: Best Die Features For 223
Fuzzball, I got a great chuckle reading your response.
The secret is knowledge. Experience. I get it.
I have been reading on this topic, several books now. I still am not afraid to ask especially now when spending money for tools I would hope will prove not to be less than what I will grow into in the near future.
It never hurts to ask. Good topic may result.
Fuzzball, I got a great chuckle reading your response.
The secret is knowledge. Experience. I get it.
I have been reading on this topic, several books now. I still am not afraid to ask especially now when spending money for tools I would hope will prove not to be less than what I will grow into in the near future.
It never hurts to ask. Good topic may result.
Re: Best Die Features For 223
quality components make a big difference but when paired with excellent dies the accuracy improves also. for mass loading on my dillon 1050 i use the RCBS small base Xdies and run all sorts of range brass pick up.
for my match ammo on the single stage i use the redding competition dies and hold better than 1/2 MOA.
hope this helps.
quality components make a big difference but when paired with excellent dies the accuracy improves also. for mass loading on my dillon 1050 i use the RCBS small base Xdies and run all sorts of range brass pick up.
for my match ammo on the single stage i use the redding competition dies and hold better than 1/2 MOA.
hope this helps.
Re: Best Die Features For 223
I will be using a single stage type RCBS press. Concentricity is something I will expect. I have to believe some dies will set up and seat bullets better than others.I have also read about different styles of die mounting methods. The way the threads are locked at their adjustment and can see why 'jamb nut' style could cause miss alignment if tolerances between the press female threads, die threads and flange where a lock ring would act These are things where one recommendation might help me make a choice. Valuable experience appreciated.
I will be using a single stage type RCBS press. Concentricity is something I will expect. I have to believe some dies will set up and seat bullets better than others.I have also read about different styles of die mounting methods. The way the threads are locked at their adjustment and can see why 'jamb nut' style could cause miss alignment if tolerances between the press female threads, die threads and flange where a lock ring would act These are things where one recommendation might help me make a choice. Valuable experience appreciated.
Re: Best Die Features For 223
After owning more expensive equipment, I went with mostly Lee and have never looked back. I do like my Hornady concentricity gauge too. Stick to the basics, build your reloading skills and you can have great ammo with any equipment. Most well disciplined reloaders are usually busy with case prep, which does not necessarily mean one is using a press all the time.
After owning more expensive equipment, I went with mostly Lee and have never looked back. I do like my Hornady concentricity gauge too. Stick to the basics, build your reloading skills and you can have great ammo with any equipment. Most well disciplined reloaders are usually busy with case prep, which does not necessarily mean one is using a press all the time.
Re: Best Die Features For 223
One thing I will mention is get a good scale. Using poor quality scales is enough to drive most people insane (or at least discourage them from continuing reloading). For most everything else, paying more just gets you smoother operation and convenience.
One thing I will mention is get a good scale. Using poor quality scales is enough to drive most people insane (or at least discourage them from continuing reloading). For most everything else, paying more just gets you smoother operation and convenience.
Re: Best Die Features For 223
Lots of good dies out there.
But the hard expander ball in the hornadys get thumbs up from me.
Lees, and RCBS, also get workouts on my bench, no complaints about them.
Lots of good dies out there.
But the hard expander ball in the hornadys get thumbs up from me.
Lees, and RCBS, also get workouts on my bench, no complaints about them.
Re: Best Die Features For 223
Thank you for all the replies. I will post back here hopefully with something to contribute in the near future.
Thank you for all the replies. I will post back here hopefully with something to contribute in the near future.
Re: Best Die Features For 223
I have a Dillon RL550B press, and most of my dies are RCBS two die sets. I have one set of Hornady New Dimesions, and a couple of sets by Redding. I buy by chambering, not brand.
The 'secret' to dies is in how you use them. Set them up correctly, use the rght lube, keep them clean and oiled between uses. They are precision tools and deserve reasonable care.
I like the Dillon's interchangeable toolhead because it has the potential to set the dies up and keep that setup between loading sessions. Consistent setup is important and that helps with the consistency.
I say this often. The basic reloading steps, done with diligence and care, should give you good ammo; providing the load has been properly developed for the rifle.
There are some really nifty tricka and tools, and they can be used to some benefit. But good basic reloading will get you to nearly the same place. Close enough for my own purposes.
I think reloading can be hard on brass, or it can be easy on brass. I try to set the dies up so they move the brass the absolute minimum necessary to build a round. I think that can prolong case life. I am not a slave to brass life, but I do believe that work-hardened brass does not help accuracy.
Keeping what goes into the dies free of grit is important. I can become imbedded in the die and engrave every case thereafter. Cases that have neck split failures are probably failing along grooves that were cut earlier by a dirty die.
Greg
I have a Dillon RL550B press, and most of my dies are RCBS two die sets. I have one set of Hornady New Dimesions, and a couple of sets by Redding. I buy by chambering, not brand.
The 'secret' to dies is in how you use them. Set them up correctly, use the rght lube, keep them clean and oiled between uses. They are precision tools and deserve reasonable care.
I like the Dillon's interchangeable toolhead because it has the potential to set the dies up and keep that setup between loading sessions. Consistent setup is important and that helps with the consistency.
I say this often. The basic reloading steps, done with diligence and care, should give you good ammo; providing the load has been properly developed for the rifle.
There are some really nifty tricka and tools, and they can be used to some benefit. But good basic reloading will get you to nearly the same place. Close enough for my own purposes.
I think reloading can be hard on brass, or it can be easy on brass. I try to set the dies up so they move the brass the absolute minimum necessary to build a round. I think that can prolong case life. I am not a slave to brass life, but I do believe that work-hardened brass does not help accuracy.
Keeping what goes into the dies free of grit is important. I can become imbedded in the die and engrave every case thereafter. Cases that have neck split failures are probably failing along grooves that were cut earlier by a dirty die.
Greg
Re: Best Die Features For 223
I had a number of 223 dies for years and used the Redding FL S die because it cost the most and looked the best.
Then I did testing on a population of 22 pieces of brass dedicated to one die over a series of up to 25 firings at 66kpsi.
Then another population of 22 dedicated to another die.
Then another population of 22 pieces of brass dedicated to another die... etc.
I measured concentricity and case growth.
What I found was that the Lee collet neck die was the best.
The FL dies were in the middle.
The Redding FL S die was the worst.
It is an important test when I find out everything I have been doing for years is wrong.
I had a number of 223 dies for years and used the Redding FL S die because it cost the most and looked the best.
Then I did testing on a population of 22 pieces of brass dedicated to one die over a series of up to 25 firings at 66kpsi.
Then another population of 22 dedicated to another die.
Then another population of 22 pieces of brass dedicated to another die... etc.
I measured concentricity and case growth.
What I found was that the Lee collet neck die was the best.
The FL dies were in the middle.
The Redding FL S die was the worst.
It is an important test when I find out everything I have been doing for years is wrong.
Re: Best Die Features For 223
For first time reloading for my rifle I use Lee F/L dies. For bolt guns, once the case has been fire-formed to your chamber, it's hard to beat the Lee Collet die. Neck sizes only and no lube required.
I've used the Redding F/L die for my .223 loads and found it to be a real PITA. Even with the smallest amount of lube it tends to either "air lock" or dents the crap out of the shoulders. Never an issue with my Lee dies as they have a hole in the shoulder area to break the air seal and relieve any excess lube thus preventing dents.
I won't use much of what Lee makes as most of it is plastic crap but their dies are great.
For first time reloading for my rifle I use Lee F/L dies. For bolt guns, once the case has been fire-formed to your chamber, it's hard to beat the Lee Collet die. Neck sizes only and no lube required.
I've used the Redding F/L die for my .223 loads and found it to be a real PITA. Even with the smallest amount of lube it tends to either "air lock" or dents the crap out of the shoulders. Never an issue with my Lee dies as they have a hole in the shoulder area to break the air seal and relieve any excess lube thus preventing dents.
I won't use much of what Lee makes as most of it is plastic crap but their dies are great.
Re: Best Die Features For 223
"Fuzzball, I got a great chuckle reading your response."
I got a chuckle writing it. I knew what you hoped for but, fact is, there is no significant difference between the average effects of common dies no matter how purty the externals are. It's the insides that make ammo and Mr. Clark's experience largely duplicates mine.
I have no blind loyalty to inanimate objects. Advertising and hype aside, dies are variable within a narrow range. FL sizer dimensions will vary within the range set by SAAMI and anything inside the window is as fully 'in tolerance' as anything else. Meaning there's as much difference between sizers of the same brand as between brands.
Individual seaters also vary by tolerances. The design of Forster/Redding seaters is very good, their full body lenght alignment sleeves assure they won't do 'poor' work but how good individual examples work varies a bit anyway. Thing is, conventional seaters used correctly (few are) can have tight enough fits that more costly 'competion' seaters can do no better - but that ideal fit is uncommon and depends on luck, not brand. And if those who automatically slime Lee dies actually measured the work of their seaters (and sizers) many would shut up.
We usually buy rifle dies in two die sets but I'm yet to find a near perfect sizer coupled with a near perfect seater in the same set. So I often buy mulitpule die sets of the same caliber and select the best individuals from what I have. My user die sets usually have mixed sizer and seater; sometimes they're the same brand, sometimes not.
No seater can make concentric ammo in bent-neck cases and poor sizing can do that. What I prefer for most accurate resizing is the Lee Collet Neck sizer and a body die I've made by boring out the neck of the largest body diameter sizer die I can find. That means my body sized cases will be minimally changed and, by following that with a collet neck die, I can have "FL" sized cases with the straightest possible necks.
I suppose IF I had a tight-neck custom chamber that demanded neck turning I would love bushing type neck sizers but all my rifles have common generous factory chambers. Thus, for my most accurate rifles, I skim turn Lee collet sized necks just to help align the interior and exterior cylinders of the necks and then my Forster seaters (work good but less costly than Reddings) do as well as can be expected for threaded dies.
My first run reload's total indicated runout on prepped cases is typically less than 3 thou at the worst possible location on the bullet. I usually cull the worst, so my retained TIR ammo is 2 thou or less, meaning the bullet tilt is no more than 1 thou off the line of bore. Neither my rifles nor my shooting can see any advantage to less runout/concentricity than that.
All this means the die brand, other than Lee's unique neck die, has no predictable effect. IMHO. And I've let you in on the 'secret'!
PS: Not that it matters on a die thread but since Lee's "plastic crap" has been brought up, I believe Lee has carefully engineered their various loading tools to use steel, iron, alum and plastics in appropriate places to sell very effective tools for the lowest possible retail price. I'm continually puzzled by web authorities happily making "crap" judgements, especially since the judgements are <span style="text-decoration: underline">never</span> supported by any intellectually honest evidence to support the claims. ??
"Fuzzball, I got a great chuckle reading your response."
I got a chuckle writing it. I knew what you hoped for but, fact is, there is no significant difference between the average effects of common dies no matter how purty the externals are. It's the insides that make ammo and Mr. Clark's experience largely duplicates mine.
I have no blind loyalty to inanimate objects. Advertising and hype aside, dies are variable within a narrow range. FL sizer dimensions will vary within the range set by SAAMI and anything inside the window is as fully 'in tolerance' as anything else. Meaning there's as much difference between sizers of the same brand as between brands.
Individual seaters also vary by tolerances. The design of Forster/Redding seaters is very good, their full body lenght alignment sleeves assure they won't do 'poor' work but how good individual examples work varies a bit anyway. Thing is, conventional seaters used correctly (few are) can have tight enough fits that more costly 'competion' seaters can do no better - but that ideal fit is uncommon and depends on luck, not brand. And if those who automatically slime Lee dies actually measured the work of their seaters (and sizers) many would shut up.
We usually buy rifle dies in two die sets but I'm yet to find a near perfect sizer coupled with a near perfect seater in the same set. So I often buy mulitpule die sets of the same caliber and select the best individuals from what I have. My user die sets usually have mixed sizer and seater; sometimes they're the same brand, sometimes not.
No seater can make concentric ammo in bent-neck cases and poor sizing can do that. What I prefer for most accurate resizing is the Lee Collet Neck sizer and a body die I've made by boring out the neck of the largest body diameter sizer die I can find. That means my body sized cases will be minimally changed and, by following that with a collet neck die, I can have "FL" sized cases with the straightest possible necks.
I suppose IF I had a tight-neck custom chamber that demanded neck turning I would love bushing type neck sizers but all my rifles have common generous factory chambers. Thus, for my most accurate rifles, I skim turn Lee collet sized necks just to help align the interior and exterior cylinders of the necks and then my Forster seaters (work good but less costly than Reddings) do as well as can be expected for threaded dies.
My first run reload's total indicated runout on prepped cases is typically less than 3 thou at the worst possible location on the bullet. I usually cull the worst, so my retained TIR ammo is 2 thou or less, meaning the bullet tilt is no more than 1 thou off the line of bore. Neither my rifles nor my shooting can see any advantage to less runout/concentricity than that.
All this means the die brand, other than Lee's unique neck die, has no predictable effect. IMHO. And I've let you in on the 'secret'!
PS: Not that it matters on a die thread but since Lee's "plastic crap" has been brought up, I believe Lee has carefully engineered their various loading tools to use steel, iron, alum and plastics in appropriate places to sell very effective tools for the lowest possible retail price. I'm continually puzzled by web authorities happily making "crap" judgements, especially since the judgements are <span style="text-decoration: underline">never</span> supported by any intellectually honest evidence to support the claims. ??
