Range Report Barrel Break-in Observations I Don't Understand

[BamaAl]

So I broke in a new barrel today. I'm very happy with the way it shoots. But I observed some things during the process that I don't understand. I was breaking in a 30" Bartlein in 308 with 5R rifling.

Ok, so the first 21 rounds it was steadily cleaning easier (5th patch clean) but it shot for crap. At 100 yards it was about 3 moa at best. Then on round 22 the shot went about 2 moa down and 2 left. Round 23-25 went an addtional 1 down and 1 left in a very tight group. It just very suddenly dialed in. So I adjusted my scope zero amd for the next 40 rounds the groups were dead on, about .5 - .75 moa and I really felt like the barrel was less than .5 moa if I did my part. Oh, and I shot one and cleaned for 5, shot 5 and cleaned for 35, shot 10 and cleaned for 20. After it "got happy" it was harder to clean too. 10 patches each time.

So now for the question. I've broken in a few barrels now but I've never seen the accuracy improve on one that dramatically in just a couple of shots. Can someone explain why it would work that way?

 

[Turk]

Re: Barrel Break-in Observations I Don't Understand

Barrels don't go from 3 moa to .5 moa after "break in"; something else is the issue!

 

[tigerfan_9]

Re: Barrel Break-in Observations I Don't Understand

Especially a bartlein.

 

[BamaAl]

Re: Barrel Break-in Observations I Don't Understand

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barrels don't go from 3 moa to .5 moa after "break in"; something else is the issue! </div></div>

Fair enough. Not faulting the barrel at all. Just not sure what to make of what I saw. Could it have been the loads I was shooting? I tried three different weight bullets over 60 rounds. It loved 155 and 175. But the first 20 rounds were 150 and factory ammo. I didn't think it was the rounds because the first 20 rounds at 150 were grouping lousy but around the POA. So I just figured it was lousy ammo and the groups would Improve when I switched to my loads. Then I switched to my hand loads for 155 and 175 for 20 rounds each and got the very tight groups. If they had still centered around the original POA I wouldn't have thought anything about it. But since the POI shifted so dramatically, and held steady for both the 155 and 175, it seemed to me it was more likely related to the break-in process itself.

Probably should have added that info up front huh?

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Barrel Break-in Observations I Don't Understand

Umm, so you were feeding it 150gr bullets and cleaning after each round and it shot like crap.

Then you switched to match ammo and I am betting that you were shooting more rounds between each cleaning and it grouped better?

Welcome to the world of why I don't "break in" barrels. I just shoot them with match ammo.

 

[Rthur]

Re: Barrel Break-in Observations I Don't Understand

As LoneWolf mentioned these barrels don't require breaking in. Also the cleaning fluids ect could make it shoot all over hell until the barrel settles down.

 

[Frank Green]

Re: Barrel Break-in Observations I Don't Understand

You've got to much going on in the beginning to try and figure out what exactly was going on. To say anything would be a guess at best.

I've seen some barrels that shoot good but as you get rounds thru them they start to shoot better and better as the barrels starts to hit say 100-150 rounds and they seem to clean easier. What I mean by good is say around a .5moa then as they get rounds on them the groups start to shrink to say .3moa or better.

Ammo is a huge variable weather it's hand loaded or factory loaded. Any run out the ammo has or if the ammo has poorer quality bullets it can have accuracy problems and nothing to do with the gun or barrel etc...Also the bullets/ammo can vary from lot to lot (copper jackets). Some lots can foul more than others and again it can have nothing to do with the barrel.

Start off with good ammo to start with. That way you remove one of the variables right from the get go.

Another problem area are the sights. Scopes go bad. You didn't say if the scope was ever changed and if you tried a different one etc...I've had $2k plus dollar scopes go bad and not hold zero.

Let us know how it's working for ya!

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels Inc.

 

[eracer]

Re: Barrel Break-in Observations I Don't Understand

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rthur</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As LoneWolf mentioned these barrels don't require breaking in. Also the cleaning fluids ect could make it shoot all over hell until the barrel settles down.</div></div>Bartlein is building a 7mm barrel for me that I plan to have melonited. MMI-TruTec (who is one of the largest nitriding companies out there) suggested that I put five rounds down the tube and thoroughly clean it before sending it off for treatment.

Is this not 'break-in'?

Frank, perhaps you could add to this?

 

[Guest]

Re: Barrel Break-in Observations I Don't Understand

Why are you trying to break in a custom barrel in the first place? If your trying to correct (burnish) what your Smith fucked up in the throat, I understand how that can be extruded into breaking in a barrel, but it's the wrong term analogy.
A quality smith + a sharp reamer used correctly = a barrel/throat that will not copper in the first place. Later if/when the fire cracking starts, they all will to some extent.
The guy that cuts mine always says, my reamers cut Rock an Pac-Nor barrels like Butter. First shots always prove he is correct.

Never allow a Smiths rack reamer to be used on your custom barrel.

 

[eracer]

Re: Barrel Break-in Observations I Don't Understand

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why are you trying to break in a custom barrel in the first place? If your trying to correct (burnish) what your Smith fucked up in the throat, I understand how that can be extruded into breaking in a barrel, but it's the wrong term analogy.
A quality smith + a sharp reamer used correctly = a barrel/throat that will not copper in the first place. Later if/when the fire cracking starts, they all will to some extent.
The guy that cuts mine always says, my reamers cut Rock an Pac-Nor barrels like Butter. First shots always prove he is correct.

Never allow a Smiths rack reamer to be used on your custom barrel.

</div></div>I plan to use Greg Tannel to cut mine. He uses a 'Greg Tannel' reamer.

 

[Guest]

Re: Barrel Break-in Observations I Don't Understand

If you buy an own the reamers an gauges, you will most always get a better throat an chamber cut over rack tools. Close Inspection of the tool after the fact is telling on how it was used as well.
The cost of a Reamer is pocket change and a good hedge when spending 3-5K on a custom stick.

I've been very happy with these folks myself.

 

[Frank Green]

Re: Barrel Break-in Observations I Don't Understand

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eracer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rthur</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As LoneWolf mentioned these barrels don't require breaking in. Also the cleaning fluids ect could make it shoot all over hell until the barrel settles down.</div></div>Bartlein is building a 7mm barrel for me that I plan to have melonited. MMI-TruTec (who is one of the largest nitriding companies out there) suggested that I put five rounds down the tube and thoroughly clean it before sending it off for treatment.

Is this not 'break-in'?

For the most part the only thing you break in in a new barrel is the throat. A big post going on right now about this on a different thread so I'm not going to go thru the whole thing here again.

I just got my barrel back from Melontite treatment about a week ago. Gotta get it back on the gun and give it a whirl. Got it all cleaned up and ready to go.

For piece of mind I did shoot my barrel before I sent it out. Only 34 rounds on it before Melonite. I wanted to see how the barrel cleaned and shot for accuracy before the treatment was done so I had a base line to compare it to when I got it back and started shooting it some more. Also by shooting it I wanted the throat to kinda polish and break in. Once the barrel is Melonited it's around 70Rc. Depending on the caliber and how rough your throat was when it got chambered it could take awhile for the throat to break in.

Yes having your own reamers etc...helps with how often the reamer is used and how it's cutting etc...but I've seen brand new reamers from the manufacturer not cut to the proper size or give you a good finish and had to send them back to get remade/sharpened etc...Just because it's brand new doesn't mean it's right/good!

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

Frank, perhaps you could add to this? </div></div>

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Barrel Break-in Observations I Don't Understand

I think Frank Green is right on the money here. If there is a benefit to breaking in a barrel, it's mainly about the tool marks left from throating.

While common wisdom suggests that break-in is a no-no for custom barrels, they all have this issue, custom or factory; unless the chambering process involves some means of a final honing the throat to address this specific issue.

This could be a justification for abrasives/firepolishing, but I think I'll pass on that. The same effect happens without the abrasive, it just takes longer, and any potential issues with abrasives and finely honed premium bores becomes a non-issue.

As for bore treatments, I can't pass any judgements there; I am totally uneducated on the subject.

As ammuniton for break-iin goes, I'd simply use whatever I was planning to use for the barrel's main purpose anyway. It may sound simplistic and trite, but I believe that nothing else replicates the pressures and obturation, and that this is a key factor toward conditioning the bore in preparation for a lifetime of a specific type of service.

Greg

 

[Frank Green]

Re: Barrel Break-in Observations I Don't Understand

Rthur, Looks like your asking about the cleaning fluids and effecting accuracy? If so:

I shoot all my barrels dry and clean. The only thing I see on the very first shot is it is slower velocity wise by approx. 30fps (like on a .308win.) at short range (100 maybe 200 yards) you really won't notice the group being different but at long range you'll see it.

To me any type of oil/solvents in the bore will cause fliers as well until it's all been burned out etc...Also as the throat of the barrel wears you get cracks and voids etc...the solvent will lay in these voids. The worse the wear with the solvent laying in there can cause you headaches. Also the types of solvents can react differently. I had one customer at a match I was at for the first 7 to 8 rounds fired at 800 yards the gun had no consistency to it at all. After these several rounds then the gun settled down and cleaned the target. The barrel had around 2500 rounds on it at this point.

Also having any type of oil/solvents in the chamber is a no no! This will cause the case upon firing to not bite/grip the chambers walls for that fraction of a second. Having solvent in the chamber causes pressures to go up and all the pressure to thrust towards the bolt. Bad situation. Guns blow up this way.

Hope this answered your question.

later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Barrel Break-in Observations I Don't Understand

In line with the cold, clean bore, I look at fouling as a lubricant.

IMHO, for the most part, carbon fouling is primarily composed of graphite, the unburnt residue from powder kernel coatings, and serves (has served for over a century) as a basic dry bore lube. Moly is another such dry bore lube, and is, IMHO an answer to a question that never really existed. I see moly as a complication to the bore lube issue, an additional variable being introduced where none was ever really needed.

Consequently, a cold, clean bore shoots slower until the carbon fouling has built up to a minimum necessary level.

Greg

 

[BamaAl]

Re: Barrel Break-in Observations I Don't Understand

Ok, so reading through all of these posts, thanks for taking the time to answer by the way, what I think I'm hearing is something along the lines of:

1. It could have been a ton of different things.
2. Some things man is not meant to know.
3. It works, shut up and enjoy.

 

[Frank Green]

Re: Barrel Break-in Observations I Don't Understand

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BamaAl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, so reading through all of these posts, thanks for taking the time to answer by the way, what I think I'm hearing is something along the lines of:

1. It could have been a ton of different things.
2. Some things man is not meant to know.
3. It works, shut up and enjoy.

</div></div>

Your on the right track!!!!!!!!!! LOL!

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[5RWill]

Re: Barrel Break-in Observations I Don't Understand

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Umm, so you were feeding it 150gr bullets and cleaning after each round and it shot like crap.

Then you switched to match ammo and I am betting that you were shooting more rounds between each cleaning and it grouped better?

Welcome to the world of why I don't "break in" barrels. I just shoot them with match ammo.

</div></div>

This ^

and

Gail McMillan "Barrel Break in myth"

This ^

JMO if you want to break in by all means do. Some people do some don't.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Barrel Break-in Observations I Don't Understand

I used to take the Gail McMillan article with a grain of salt, chalking it at least partly up to cynicism. Of late, I think more and more that he was on a promising track.

Greg

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Barrel Break-in Observations I Don't Understand

Just to clarify. I believe barrels do "break in".

I don't feel that cleaning between each round helps this. I feel that the bullets do it just fine on their own.