Greg Langelius

[prairiefire]

I've noticed from time to time that you mention being recoil sensitive. I think you are in a large group - myself included. I have not shot many bolt type guns, but want to do so. I am curious from those who do, which calibers are "recoil friendly". I've seen the Chuck Hawk table that ranks guns according to recoil - I'm curious as to how accurate it is. I would like to shoot varmints and punch paper out to 500-600 yards and maybe try occasional longer shots, if I can find space to do so. Do you find the .260 a good compromise? I'm 63, in reasonably good shape, but not nearly as strong as I once was and my shoulders have their aches and pains. Thought I would check on your experience as well as the collective experience of those on this board,

Over the hill, but not under it!

 

[redirt78]

Re: Greg Langelius

I have seen that 260 and 7mm08's have noticeably less kick shooting bullets in the 130-140 grain range when compared to 155-175's out of a 308. Though, a lot depends on rifle weight and whether or not you shoot with a muzzle brake. A somewhat heavy stock with a pachmayr pad and a brake on a 260 should let you shoot prairie dogs, paper, steel etc. all day long

 

[Swift]

Re: Greg Langelius

Anything in the 6mm and 6.5mm range will do. I shoot a 260 configured just like redirt mentioned and recoil is the furthest thing from my mind. For varmints in that range, I'd give the 243 a good look. Great flat shooting varmint cartridge with minimal recoil and effective well past 600yds.

22-250 and 220 swift are great options too.

 

[cavemanmoore]

Re: Greg Langelius

I am not recoil sensitive. But, when I moved from shooting a 300WSM to a 6.5x47L I questioned why I didn't move to a lighter caliber sooner? Speaking of my 47L, my rifle weighed about 17#'s. Recoil was literally similar to a 10/22. I would highly recommend that caliber to anyone, for almost anything.

 

[Jhnmdahl]

Re: Greg Langelius

The Chuck Hawks table is very accurate, but keep in mind that felt recoil varies a lot with the weight of the rifle (which is why it's specified in Hawks' table). A .260 or 6.5mm is a great choice, and you can always add a heavier stock or barrel if for some reason you prefer even less recoil.

John

 

[Jig Stick]

Re: Greg Langelius

with my muzzle brake on, my 300wm is soft.

 

[Speeddog]

Re: Greg Langelius

I've noticed from time to time that you mention being recoil sensitive. I think you are in a large group - myself included. I have not shot many bolt type guns, but want to do so. I am curious from those who do, which calibers are "recoil friendly". I've seen the Chuck Hawk table that ranks guns according to recoil - I'm curious as to how accurate it is. I would like to shoot varmints and punch paper out to 500-600 yards and maybe try occasional longer shots, if I can find space to do so. Do you find the .260 a good compromise? I'm 63, in reasonably good shape, but not nearly as strong as I once was and my shoulders have their aches and pains. Thought I would check on your experience as well as the collective experience of those on this board,


I'm not Greg but I am an old fart. I'm 65 and have accumulated more than my share of broken parts, among them a compound fracture of my right clavicle, 12 broken ribs (8 on the right) and a broken right shoulder (horse wreck). My accident occurred three years ago and I didn't know how well I'd tolerate recoil or bigger calibers (I'm a righty).

I did a couple of things to cope: put brakes on my .308s and bigger; shot my 6 and 6.5 mms more often; shot my heavier rifles pretty much exclusively and finally, paid attention to fundamentals, including my stock-in-shoulder position. Turned out recoil was NOT the problem I thought it might be. I suspect if you do some or all of that, as others have suggested above, you'll be fine.

Best of luck: go for it.

 

[BoilerUP]

Re: Greg Langelius

I'm 28, soon to be 29 years old. 5'11", 180lbs, and an unabashed recoil pussy.

While I hunted deer with them, I hated shooting a 270 or 30-06 more than 3-4 rounds at a time. I had a slip-on Limbsaver that I used while doing load development, and even after 20 rounds I was ready to put the rifle down for a while. Of course, those were 22" hunting rifles, not heavy tactical rigs with brakes or suppressors.

I can shoot my 13lb 260 all day long without issue, and can run 20 down my lightweight 700 Mountain LSS .260 before I need to take a break.

But for 500-600yds with an occasional longer shot, consider the 6BR/6XC and take a long hard look at a 7-twist 223 pushing 80gr bullets...

 

[Chiller]

Re: Greg Langelius

With a brake......a whole different world.

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[Chiller]

Re: Greg Langelius

go with the 6XC...

 

[SporterII]

Re: Greg Langelius

If I may ;
243 lots of varmint bullets and 223, same thing. 75gr. Amax Can put you there with a good 8 twist 223.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Greg Langelius

Wow, and by name, even...

Mostly these days, I'm a paper puncher. I shoot whatever distances I can drive to and still get back home in a hurry in under 2 hours, in case my Wife, who is not especially healthy, needs help. As far as I've seen so far, that's a max of 250yd and is about a half hour from home at my local club.

My recoil sensitivity comes from having had my ribcage opened up twice since 2004, with a bone graft reconstruction where most folks' sternum resides. It's not a big deal, but it does limit my recoil tolerance.

I am 66, still barely within my ideal weight range, and have issues related to significant congestive heart failure. I can do most anything others can do, but I run out of steam really quickly.

If I could only have one rifle, it would be a .260 Rem. When I had my .260 converted to .30BR, I immediately went and bought a new .260, so I could continue to shoot the caliber. I cheat that a bit by ballasting the stock. From 95gr to 142gr, loads I've developed work really well for just about anything I'd care to do with a rifle.

Best I've done with the .260 was 13/16" for five at 250yd, and that was before I had my surgeries.

These days, I shoot .30BR in comp, and I'm quite happy keeping everything (40rd for score) inside 2MOA at 250yd. Last match, last weekend, I managed that with 39 of the 40. I'll take it.

I also love the .30-'06, and have three rifles chambered in the caliber, including my beloved Garand. But shooting the .30-'06 is recreational for me these days, I can't handle the recoil well enough to sustain a full course of competitive fire with bullets heavier than 150gr, and that won't do for LR.

I have found a way to cheat that, too; the .280 Rem's recoil is sustainable, and it will do 1Kyd with 150gr bullets. Same case, smarter bullets. Just like the .308 and the .260.

Greg

 

[Quarter Horse]

Re: Greg Langelius

Recoils negative effects are under rated. The negative effects are also cumulative. The more you shoot heavier recoiling guns the more your body gets pissed off. This results in jerking the trigger, blinking the shot, moving the entire body into the gun when you break the shot and various other unsavory accuracy inhibitors.

Things that reduce recoil and/or felt recoil:
1. lighter bullet or powder charge
2. increased weight of firearm
3. muzzle brake
4. stock design and fit
5. recoil absorbing devices (recoil pads, PAST sheilds, etc.)
6. a clean breaking trigger that is three pounds or less

These are listed in order of importance. Numbers three and four might be reversed particularly as regards shotguns.

Choose a smaller cartridge in a rifle that weighs twelve pounds plus and add an effective muzzle brake. You will have no problem.

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Greg Langelius

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quarter Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Recoils negative effects are under rated. The negative effects are also cumulative. The more you shoot heavier recoiling guns the more your body gets pissed off. This results in jerking the trigger, blinking the shot, moving the entire body into the gun when you break the shot and various other unsavory accuracy inhibitors.
</div></div>
I politely disagree with you on it being cumulative. I think recoil is all in your head, just as pain is all in your head. If you smash your finger with a hammer, your finger doesn't hurt. You brain says that your finger hurts. If you can control pain you can force yourself to not have the reactions that create the flinch. Shooting my .50 and having the back-blast give you a little smack in the face with the gun recoiling could make anyone flinch. I tell myself before the shot not to flinch. I taught my 13 year old daughter not to flinch and she doesn't. Give it a try. Tell yourself as you put your finger on the trigger to keep your eyes open, smooth straight back trigger pull, consistent exact unchanging grip and rearward pressure on the gun (pistol or rifle). Also a key is if you shoot pistol or anything with a brake to use a good wrap around eyeglasses and if you are noise sensitive give plugs AND muffs a try. Yes both at the same time. It will help.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Greg Langelius

I do 1, 2, 4, and 5.

I appreciate the confidence folks display toward me, but being Greg Langelius is just like being anyone else. I just type a lot.

Greg

 

[jeo556]

Re: Greg Langelius

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Mechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quarter Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Recoils negative effects are under rated. The negative effects are also cumulative. The more you shoot heavier recoiling guns the more your body gets pissed off. This results in jerking the trigger, blinking the shot, moving the entire body into the gun when you break the shot and various other unsavory accuracy inhibitors.
</div></div>
I politely disagree with you on it being cumulative. I think recoil is all in your head, just as pain is all in your head. If you smash your finger with a hammer, your finger doesn't hurt. You brain says that your finger hurts. If you can control pain you can force yourself to not have the reactions that create the flinch. Shooting my .50 and having the back-blast give you a little smack in the face with the gun recoiling could make anyone flinch. I tell myself before the shot not to flinch. I taught my 13 year old daughter not to flinch and she doesn't. Give it a try. Tell yourself as you put your finger on the trigger to keep your eyes open, smooth straight back trigger pull, consistent exact unchanging grip and rearward pressure on the gun (pistol or rifle). Also a key is if you shoot pistol or anything with a brake to use a good wrap around eyeglasses and if you are noise sensitive give plugs AND muffs a try. Yes both at the same time. It will help. </div></div>

I must politely disagree with you. Very few people shoot more rounds from a shoulder fired gun than a serious trap shooter. They know more about cummulative recoil and how it affects a shooter's performace over time than anyone. Here's an example.

Release trigger and it's purpose

 

[Swift]

Re: Greg Langelius

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Mechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quarter Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Recoils negative effects are under rated. The negative effects are also cumulative. The more you shoot heavier recoiling guns the more your body gets pissed off. This results in jerking the trigger, blinking the shot, moving the entire body into the gun when you break the shot and various other unsavory accuracy inhibitors.
</div></div>
I politely disagree with you on it being cumulative. I think recoil is all in your head, just as pain is all in your head. If you smash your finger with a hammer, your finger doesn't hurt. You brain says that your finger hurts. If you can control pain you can force yourself to not have the reactions that create the flinch. Shooting my .50 and having the back-blast give you a little smack in the face with the gun recoiling could make anyone flinch. I tell myself before the shot not to flinch. I taught my 13 year old daughter not to flinch and she doesn't. Give it a try. Tell yourself as you put your finger on the trigger to keep your eyes open, smooth straight back trigger pull, consistent exact unchanging grip and rearward pressure on the gun (pistol or rifle). Also a key is if you shoot pistol or anything with a brake to use a good wrap around eyeglasses and if you are noise sensitive give plugs AND muffs a try. Yes both at the same time. It will help. </div></div>

Well said. Don't underestimate the mental aspect. If you allow yourself to be intimidated or you're thinking about recoil before it happens, you will be more affected by it. This mental block will manifest itself into physical changes i.e. moving into the weapon before breaking the shot, flinching, blinking, etc in anticipation of recoil. If you properly apply the fundamentals, keep the buttstock in the pocket and concentrate on your target, the recoil takes care of itself. It's a cause and effect.

 

[LRJammer]

Re: Greg Langelius

I have the same problem that was posted by someone above. I broke my right collarbone years ago in a motorcycly racing accident and it gives me problems when using the proper "Straight behind the rifle" technique. Shooting a 9.5 lb 260 does make it tolerable for a little while but my 7.5 lb 308 really is painful. Yes I can make myself squeeze without flinching, but that doesnt in any way lessen the impact or the pain. I have a 7 lb 300 WSM that I wont even attempt to shoot wtih that technique. If I have to shoot it prone, I have to use the classic off the left side position and just live with losing the target in recoil.

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Greg Langelius

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeo556</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Mechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quarter Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Recoils negative effects are under rated. The negative effects are also cumulative. The more you shoot heavier recoiling guns the more your body gets pissed off. This results in jerking the trigger, blinking the shot, moving the entire body into the gun when you break the shot and various other unsavory accuracy inhibitors.
</div></div>
I politely disagree with you on it being cumulative. I think recoil is all in your head, just as pain is all in your head. If you smash your finger with a hammer, your finger doesn't hurt. You brain says that your finger hurts. If you can control pain you can force yourself to not have the reactions that create the flinch. Shooting my .50 and having the back-blast give you a little smack in the face with the gun recoiling could make anyone flinch. I tell myself before the shot not to flinch. I taught my 13 year old daughter not to flinch and she doesn't. Give it a try. Tell yourself as you put your finger on the trigger to keep your eyes open, smooth straight back trigger pull, consistent exact unchanging grip and rearward pressure on the gun (pistol or rifle). Also a key is if you shoot pistol or anything with a brake to use a good wrap around eyeglasses and if you are noise sensitive give plugs AND muffs a try. Yes both at the same time. It will help. </div></div>

I must politely disagree with you. No one, and I mean no one, shoots more round from a shoulder fired gun than a serious trap shooter. They know more about cummulative recoil and how it affects a shooter's performace over time than anyone. Here's an example.

Release trigger and it's purpose </div></div>

On numerous occasions I have shot 200 or more 1oz. loads of trap and the same thing I said applied. Professional athletes do it all the time. I am not a professional athlete by any means but I did stay at a holiday inn.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Greg Langelius

A tired shooter is a poor shooter. Recoil adds up, and the total is measured in fatigue.

Greg

 

[Quarter Horse]

Re: Greg Langelius

Mechanic and Bear, I agree that thinking your way through the shot and good fundamentals will help mitigate the effects of recoil but I disagree that they can eliminate them. Consider just trying to hold your breath. Even if you could make it to the edge of consciousness, at some point your body/mind says enough of this crap and you take a breath. It makes no differrence whether it results from your mind or not. It is an involuntary reaction which is why you have to mentally try and control it at all.

Everybody has a different tolerance for recoil but nobody shoots an eight pound .50BMG without a muzzle break. The reason is that there is a limit to what can be tolerated and still deliver the bullet accurately. The top shooters are not shooting the sub-calibers with brakes or suppressors for nothing. They're doing it because they came to win.

As I said "the effects of recoil are under rated."

 

[SRSDriver]

Re: Greg Langelius

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redirt78</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have seen that 260 and 7mm08's have noticeably less kick shooting bullets in the 130-140 grain range when compared to 155-175's out of a 308. Though, a lot depends on rifle weight and whether or not you shoot with a muzzle brake. A somewhat heavy stock with a pachmayr pad and a brake on a 260 should let you shoot prairie dogs, paper, steel etc. all day long </div></div>

This has been my finding also... Also, adding a suppressor makes it much less.

 

[5R Milspec]

Re: Greg Langelius

recoil is answer ( D ) all the above. for me its mostly in my mind.I started out with a 22LR many years ago along with a 20ga.when I bought my first high powered rifel ( 270 win ) I couldn't hit the side a barn.just looking at the case gave me ideas of it hurting me.anyone else could hit what they shot at.( with my rifel )

now its all about the first dry fire.after a good friend watched me shooting he helped me out.he walked me through while firing my rifel.now I have to dry fire before I start a day of shooting.so now I own a 300wm and I am able to get great accuracy or at least I think so.heck 1 1/2 inch groups( 5 shots ) at 300 is all I need for my shooting.I've even shoot well over 50 rounds of 300wm and its no big deal.I am a big guy even the nexted day of alot of 300wm shooting I am good.

but I will add that if I take both my 223 and 300wm that I better shoot my 300wm first.if not I just wreck the first few 300wm shots.my mind is already at ease after shooting the 223.then I have to let my mind find out that the 300wm isn't going to hurt me.

 

[Swift]

Re: Greg Langelius

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quarter Horse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mechanic and Bear, I agree that thinking your way through the shot and good fundamentals will help mitigate the effects of recoil but I disagree that they can eliminate them. Consider just trying to hold your breath. Even if you could make it to the edge of consciousness, at some point your body/mind says enough of this crap and you take a breath. It makes no differrence whether it results from your mind or not. It is an involuntary reaction which is why you have to mentally try and control it at all.

Everybody has a different tolerance for recoil but nobody shoots an eight pound .50BMG without a muzzle break. The reason is that there is a limit to what can be tolerated and still deliver the bullet accurately. The top shooters are not shooting the sub-calibers with brakes or suppressors for nothing. They're doing it because they came to win.

As I said "the effects of recoil are under rated."</div></div>

I agree that being mentally focused doesn't physically mitigate recoil from the weapon; it only helps manage it. If pain and fatigue are an issue, you can use any combination of the following to reduce FELT recoil and shooter fatigue:

Limbsaver
muzzlebrake/suppressor
weight
good bipod
shoulder pad(wear it under your shirt and no one will even know)

I utilize the first 4 and on good days I can catch the vapor trail of my 260 through the scope.

 

[az_paul]

Re: Greg Langelius

At 72 and being small in stature, I find the 6.5mm and 7mm to be very comfortable to shoot.