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AR 10 VS M1A EBR

Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

Well the first time, Armalite, or who ever made the lower for them cyt the rec trigger pin locations wrong. The rifle went full auto and because tollerences where wrong on bolt/carrier it went off out of battery. Rifle was not an easy fix as parts of bolt where stuck. Needed new bolt carrier assembly, barrel and hand guard, plus they made new lower rec so it would not happen again.

Second time was early 118lr which did about same thing. That ammo did not break my: m1as, HxK 91, or many boltguns

One thing here you have missed is the Armalite is the worse of the AR10 types. Unless they have changed bolt/carrier in last few years, you can show bolt to far into carrier and f up weapon, so you will have to break gas rings to get it back out. Not good for field use when your likely to be in hurry and amped up. The SR25 types I have used do not have this problem.

Your in such a hurry to want to argue you have not even read what I wrote. The SR25 is a good design, I just pointed out what I liked and did not like based on use not bench racing.

Have fun, we are done.
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

I know this place is one big CLICK, and I know certain people expect you to curtsy to them when the enter the room.

For me, I do not care who's name is attach to a post, if I don't agree with it then I will debate it. I don't care if the President of the USA himself was posting, I would still debate AR10 vs. M14 with him.

How about if post some pics of me 20+ years ago while in Iraq? Do I get some cheese points from all you cool kid operators?

Sign lied to us
pbph-vi.jpg


Gotta take pictures with camels if your a tourist in Iraq.
IMG_07971-vi.jpg


Brand spankin new captured AK47's. Unfortunately, we were not able to smuggle these back because they scared during re-deployment. The "Amnesty Box" pile was the biggest I have ever seen hahaha
ak-vi.jpg
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

I know there are some guys out there who love M14's but from an engineering perspective I don't see how the argument that the M14 is better can even be made.

The M14 is heavier with a lighter barrel, the barrel doesn't float standard and requires extensive glass bedding and lugs on the receiver to do so.

The Ar-10 style of rifle (AKA SR-25/LMT MWS/AR10/name that derivative) is lighter by design, has a readily floated barrel and is free of the bedding problem.

<span style="font-weight: bold">I was issued an M14 in the Army in 2004/2005. My observations: </span>
After installing a Sage EBR stock, shimming the gas cylinder, adding a NM op rod guide, NM trigger group, confirming flash suppressor alignment, the gun shot 3 round groups approximately 3/4MOA with M118LR.

Any more than 3 rounds would cause the barrel to heat up enough that groups would open to 1.5-2MOA.

<span style="font-weight: bold">I also was issued an M110 in 2008-2009. My observations:</span>
The gun was 1MOA accurate whether 3 rounds or 15 rounds were fired.
The can reduced recoil to the extent I could spot my own trace at times through the scope.


<span style="font-weight: bold">Both guns were reliable.</span>


I have not heard of any exploding Ar10 problem, but have heard of M14's suffering that end. I haven't seen any except on the internet, and don't think the problem is a major issue on either platform.
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well the first time, Armalite, or who ever made the lower for them cyt the rec trigger pin locations wrong. The rifle went full auto and because tollerences where wrong on bolt/carrier it went off out of battery. Rifle was not an easy fix as parts of bolt where stuck. Needed new bolt carrier assembly, barrel and hand guard, plus they made new lower rec so it would not happen again.

Second time was early 118lr which did about same thing. That ammo did not break my: m1as, HxK 91, or many boltguns

One thing here you have missed is the Armalite is the worse of the AR10 types. Unless they have changed bolt/carrier in last few years, you can show bolt to far into carrier and f up weapon, so you will have to break gas rings to get it back out. Not good for field use when your likely to be in hurry and amped up. The SR25 types I have used do not have this problem.

Your in such a hurry to want to argue you have not even read what I wrote. The SR25 is a good design, I just pointed out what I liked and did not like based on use not bench racing.

Have fun, we are done. </div></div>

So you do not believe they have the kinks worked out? I bought a new complete BCG lately and it is no different than what I got in 2007 and 2008.

Well we all have problems with our guns from time to time. Not all my guns were 100% when I got them, and some of them took a lot of work.

Armalite has a limited lifetime warranty on their products, so at least you are covered somewhat if you get a dud.

I read your SR25 post, however, not too many people seem to agree with you. I can't comment directly because I don't even know what exactly an SR25 is, I mean I heard of them and saw pictures, but never owned one.

The Canadian Military seems to be happy with their Armalite AR10s. Maybe you can educate them since you seem to be some kind of God around here.
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know there are some guys out there who love M14's but from an engineering perspective I don't see how the argument that the M14 is better can even be made.

The M14 is heavier with a lighter barrel, the barrel doesn't float standard and requires extensive glass bedding and lugs on the receiver to do so.

The Ar-10 style of rifle (AKA SR-25/LMT MWS/AR10/name that derivative) is lighter by design, has a readily floated barrel and is free of the bedding problem.

<span style="font-weight: bold">I was issued an M14 in the Army in 2004/2005. My observations: </span>
After installing a Sage EBR stock, shimming the gas cylinder, adding a NM op rod guide, NM trigger group, confirming flash suppressor alignment, the gun shot 3 round groups approximately 3/4MOA with M118LR.

Any more than 3 rounds would cause the barrel to heat up enough that groups would open to 1.5-2MOA.

<span style="font-weight: bold">I also was issued an M110 in 2008-2009. My observations:</span>
The gun was 1MOA accurate whether 3 rounds or 15 rounds were fired.
The can reduced recoil to the extent I could spot my own trace at times through the scope.


<span style="font-weight: bold">Both guns were reliable.</span>


I have not heard of any exploding Ar10 problem, but have heard of M14's suffering that end. I haven't seen any except on the internet, and don't think the problem is a major issue on either platform. </div></div>

I agree, both systems are capable of being reliable. Both are capable of being put together properly, however as you mentioned in your post, the AR10 is just so much more simpler to accurize, scope, field cleaning, and Smith. I agree with you 100%. I don't know why anyone would chose an M14 over an AR10 if they have to pick just one. I myself, chose 2 of each, so it's not like I am an M14 hater.. since I do own 2.

I never argued that the M14 was unreliable, just when they do break how do you fix them? For AR's all parts are plug and play. With M14's, you need to find the "magic headspace", anytime you change barrels or bolts.
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is Field Service? I carried a M249, M16A2, and M16A3. Did not work on them much, but I did hump with them them. One thing I have learned from serving is Do not Listen to the average soldier when it comes to anything that requires more than 5 minute research, because most likely he does not know what the hell he is talking about.

<span style="color: #FF0000">It means used in the field as a service rifle. Ergo not on some range bench as a "hobbyist". And I don't see M14 anywhere in the list of weapons you just stated you carried, so you never carried an M14 yet you know more than those who actually carried it for decades? Your basing all your arguments on what you have heard and/or read it would seem yet these guys are basing there's on actual experience.</span>

A Soldiers job is to take orders, his job is not to give input about how he likes his food cooked.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Just because one isn't asked their opinion does not mean one doesn't have an opinion.</span>

Also, when I served, I did not know too many guys that were into guns. The guys who had the gun magazines were kind of whacked really laugh Even the Book store on base had about 50 issues of Sports Illustrated for every issue they had of a gun mag.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Does it look like the guys on this site commenting aren't into guns? That part of your statement has zero relevance here unless you're implying the opinions being given are what you're stating.</span>
</div></div>
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is Field Service? I carried a M249, M16A2, and M16A3. Did not work on them much, but I did hump with them them. One thing I have learned from serving is Do not Listen to the average soldier when it comes to anything that requires more than 5 minute research, because most likely he does not know what the hell he is talking about.

1) <span style="color: #FF0000">It means used in the field as a service rifle. Ergo not on some range bench as a "hobbyist". And I don't see M14 anywhere in the list of weapons you just stated you carried, so you never carried an M14 yet you know more than those who actually carried it for decades? Your basing all your arguments on what you have heard and/or read it would seem yet these guys are basing there's on actual experience.</span>

A Soldiers job is to take orders, his job is not to give input about how he likes his food cooked.

<span style="color: #FF0000">2) Just because one isn't asked their opinion does not mean one doesn't have an opinion.</span>

Also, when I served, I did not know too many guys that were into guns. The guys who had the gun magazines were kind of whacked really laugh Even the Book store on base had about 50 issues of Sports Illustrated for every issue they had of a gun mag.

3) <span style="color: #FF0000">Does it look like the guys on this site commenting aren't into guns? That part of your statement has zero relevance here unless you're implying the opinions being given are what you're stating.</span>
</div></div>

</div></div>


1) Hate to break the news to you, but I know much more about the AR now then when I carried one while in the Army. I also know more than all my buddies combined, who also carried them while they were in the Army. Heck I even know more about AR's than the 5 Company Armorer's. That's probably because when things are a hobby and not a job, you look forward to playing with them, and even reading about them.

2) Yes, he can give an opinion. I am just saying the average soldiers opinion does not have much weight if he has to do more than 5 minutes of research. Look guys get attached to their hardware, I have seen it with ARs, SAWs, and 1911's. I even knew a guy who gave his M1A1 Abrams tank a good bye talk when I had to PCS to another unit. I for one don't give a heavy weight to someone who said "I had to carry one". He might have had a desk job.

3) This has lots of relevance. This basically means in a nutshell, Military guys are not gun experts. I myself did not really get into guns until I was out of the Military. This is why I pointed this out.

Please discuss.

Onto page 100!
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

Some work with the M14 is easy- like shimming a gas cylinder, swapping a trigger group, doing a trigger job, replacing a stock (but not bedding), replacing an OP Rod guide..

However it requires a lot of tools- Castle nut pliers, gas cylinder wrench, allen wrenches, etc.

The problem for me is that the SR-25/LMT MWS is clearly a better system.

If M14's came in an affordable package with lugged receivers with integral picatinny rails on top, floating heavy barrels (heavy from breech to muzzle), and McMillan A5 stocks standard, and also weighed 11 lbs unloaded, I would probably say the M14 was back in the game.

 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some work with the M14 is easy- like shimming a gas cylinder, swapping a trigger group, doing a trigger job, replacing a stock (but not bedding), replacing an OP Rod guide..

However it requires a lot of tools- Castle nut pliers, gas cylinder wrench, allen wrenches, etc.

The problem for me is that the SR-25/LMT MWS is clearly a better system.

If M14's came in an affordable package with lugged receivers with integral picatinny rails on top, floating heavy barrels (heavy from breech to muzzle), and McMillan A5 stocks standard, and also weighed 11 lbs unloaded, I would probably say the M14 was back in the game.

</div></div>

How would you attach the top cover of the M14? It will have to be bolted to the bottom right? Which is what a Sage does.

Also once you have it set up properly, there is still the problems of parts availability. The US and any other other country has no plans to build M14s.

I guess once properly built, an M14 can easily go 10k rounds, as long as you stick to lighter loads. Also for combat rifles, I think anything 6 MOA or better is acceptable. The Army does not have MOA requirements for general issue rifles.
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

Troy markets a setup with a full length top rail and side rails. It's ~250$ or so dollars and it works well enough. Still makes the scope too high though and solid but not free floating (has a sort of delta ring on the front around the barrel).
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some work with the M14 is easy- like shimming a gas cylinder, swapping a trigger group, doing a trigger job, replacing a stock (but not bedding), replacing an OP Rod guide..

However it requires a lot of tools- Castle nut pliers, gas cylinder wrench, allen wrenches, etc.

The problem for me is that the SR-25/LMT MWS is clearly a better system.

If M14's came in an affordable package with lugged receivers with integral picatinny rails on top, floating heavy barrels (heavy from breech to muzzle), and McMillan A5 stocks standard, and also weighed 11 lbs unloaded, I would probably say the M14 was back in the game.

</div></div>

How would you attach the top cover of the M14? It will have to be bolted to the bottom right? Which is what a Sage does.

Also once you have it set up properly, there is still the problems of parts availability. The US and any other other country has no plans to build M14s.

I guess once properly built, an M14 can easily go 10k rounds, as long as you stick to lighter loads. Also for combat rifles, I think anything 6 MOA or better is acceptable. The Army does not have MOA requirements for general issue rifles. </div></div>

Parts are plentiful. Plenty of USGI out there as well. You mentioned warranties in another post. Springfield warranty is transferable for the life of the rifle, can't get any better than that. I don't see Springfield going anywhere soon.
In another post you mentioned bolt rollers not being replaceable - wrong. Also bent op rods as if that is common, and that it ruins an $1800 rifle - wrong again.
I've broken down a couple of M1As down to the barreled receiver with not much more than most of us have in any toolbox.
I'm not saying M1A/M14 is better or worse than anything, beauty/ergonomics is in the eye/grip of the beholder.
Just want to make sure correct information is out there. It would suck if someone trashed a $250 bolt because of a bad bolt roller. Then again, send me those bolts with the bad rollers, I'll help with the cost of a replacement LRB bolt, since they make and sell new manufacture bolts.
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 1) Hate to break the news to you, but I know much more about the AR now then when I carried one while in the Army. I also know more than all my buddies combined, who also carried them while they were in the Army. Heck I even know more about AR's than the 5 Company Armorer's. That's probably because when things are a hobby and not a job, you look forward to playing with them, and even reading about them.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Your knowledge is based strictly on hobbyist/enthusiast use and not inclusive of actual Military field use. You're not questioning your "buddies" knowledge, you're questioning the members of the forum here who I "hate to break the new to you" have likely just as much hobbyist/enthusiast knowledge combined with actual experience using the platform in a manner you have admittedly not.</span>

2) Yes, he can give an opinion. I am just saying the average soldiers opinion does not have much weight if he has to do more than 5 minutes of research. Look guys get attached to their hardware, I have seen it with ARs, SAWs, and 1911's. I even knew a guy who gave his M1A1 Abrams tank a good bye talk when I had to PCS to another unit. I for one don't give a heavy weight to someone who said "I had to carry one". He might have had a desk job.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Again... you're talking about random people in the service you know that agreeably aren't necessarily as knowledgeable just because they carried one, but the members of the forum you're arguing with aren't the case and in fact have probably several decades more experience and knowledge both as hobbyist and trade application.</span>

3) This has lots of relevance. This basically means in a nutshell, Military guys are not gun experts. I myself did not really get into guns until I was out of the Military. This is why I pointed this out.

<span style="color: #FF0000">And yet AGAIN... you're operating on the assumption that the others here are just military guys and not also enthusiast, hobbyist, etc. Some of these members are not only all of the above but also Industry experts who sell to the military and their entire livelihood is based upon their knowledge of firearms... </span>

Please discuss.

Onto page 100! </div></div>
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mescalito</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Parts are plentiful. Plenty of USGI out there as well. You mentioned warranties in another post. Springfield warranty is transferable for the life of the rifle, can't get any better than that. I don't see Springfield going anywhere soon.
In another post you mentioned bolt rollers not being replaceable - wrong. Also bent op rods as if that is common, and that it ruins an $1800 rifle - wrong again.
I've broken down a couple of M1As down to the barreled receiver with not much more than most of us have in any toolbox.
I'm not saying M1A/M14 is better or worse than anything, beauty/ergonomics is in the eye/grip of the beholder.
Just want to make sure correct information is out there. It would suck if someone trashed a $250 bolt because of a bad bolt roller. Then again, send me those bolts with the bad rollers, I'll help with the cost of a replacement LRB bolt, since they make and sell new manufacture bolts. </div></div>

Plenty of USGI parts available? Considering the US Govt has problems, well you must have quite the hook up!

Lapping bolts and timing barrel is fun stuff. Much funner than just screwing in an AR barrel, and fingering in a AR bolt is boring.

Springfield M1A's are still M14's basically. I know, I have one. Great gun with iron sites, but a pain and expensive to accurize.
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

1) <span style="color: #FF0000">Your knowledge is based strictly on hobbyist/enthusiast use and not inclusive of actual Military field use. You're not questioning your "buddies" knowledge, you're questioning the members of the forum here who I "hate to break the new to you" have likely just as much hobbyist/enthusiast knowledge combined with actual experience using the platform in a manner you have admittedly not.</span>

2)<span style="color: #FF0000">Again... you're talking about random people in the service you know that agreeably aren't necessarily as knowledgeable just because they carried one, but the members of the forum you're arguing with aren't the case and in fact have probably several decades more experience and knowledge both as hobbyist and trade application.</span>

3) <span style="color: #FF0000">And yet AGAIN... you're operating on the assumption that the others here are just military guys and not also enthusiast, hobbyist, etc. Some of these members are not only all of the above but also Industry experts who sell to the military and their entire livelihood is based upon their knowledge of firearms... </span>

</div></div>

1) That only means something if you had 200 buddies, and surveyed all 200 buddies. One guys opinion means nothing. Survey an Infantry Regiment and I will be all ears.

2) They are using their service as justification of why I should listen to them. I just told them, I served, and most guys that served did not know jack about guns. I have an idea, how about we attack the subject instead of comparing service records? I don't think me living in my mom's basement has any bearing on the discussion at hand.

3) Again, they were the ones that brought up their service record and why I should listen to them. Instead of attacking the subject, they claimed "I served" while personally attacking me. Little did they know, I actually served and know a lot about the people in the service.
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

1) <span style="color: #FF0000">Your knowledge is based strictly on hobbyist/enthusiast use and not inclusive of actual Military field use. You're not questioning your "buddies" knowledge, you're questioning the members of the forum here who I "hate to break the new to you" have likely just as much hobbyist/enthusiast knowledge combined with actual experience using the platform in a manner you have admittedly not.</span>

2)<span style="color: #FF0000">Again... you're talking about random people in the service you know that agreeably aren't necessarily as knowledgeable just because they carried one, but the members of the forum you're arguing with aren't the case and in fact have probably several decades more experience and knowledge both as hobbyist and trade application.</span>

3) <span style="color: #FF0000">And yet AGAIN... you're operating on the assumption that the others here are just military guys and not also enthusiast, hobbyist, etc. Some of these members are not only all of the above but also Industry experts who sell to the military and their entire livelihood is based upon their knowledge of firearms... </span>

</div></div>

1) That only means something if you had 200 buddies, and surveyed all 200 buddies. One guys opinion means nothing. Survey an Infantry Regiment and I will be all ears.

<span style="color: #FF0000">And yet you are one guy... so by that justification your opinion would mean nothing.</span>

2) They are using their service as justification of why I should listen to them. I just told them, I served, and most guys that served did not know jack about guns. I have an idea, how about we attack the subject instead of comparing service records? I don't think me living in my mom's basement has any bearing on the discussion at hand.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Their service is just part of their justification. And I didn't attack your service record or make any comments about your moms basement so you can take that bullshit spin elsewhere and try swallowing your own advice about staying on track.</span>

3) Again, they were the ones that brought up their service record and why I should listen to them. Instead of attacking the subject, they claimed "I served" while personally attacking me. Little did they know, I actually served and know a lot about the people in the service.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Again... I haven't said shit about your serving and already knew you had from previous arguments. My only comment was that you had in FACT stated you never carried an M14, so you your knowledge of it as a service rifle is in FACT less than theirs since they do have experience with it. I also said that their knowledge goes beyond just the service rifle aspect.</span>
</div></div>
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

The accuracy of the rifle is important. The M14 was a Designated Marksman rifle, the whole purpose was to extend range of the Infantry platoon to 600 yards. 6MOA wouldn't do for that.

2MOA is acceptable, but if you get the M14 standard rack grade barrel hot at all, the throat will erode out and the guns start to do 3.5MOA. 3.5 is 21" at 600, maybe it's good enough if you shoot in a vacuum without atmospheric conditions, but my point was that the M110 by comparison is 2-4 times better.

When life is on the line only the very best will do, is a marketing message from KAC and with regard to this argument I feel they've correctly applied it.
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

1) <span style="color: #FF0000">And yet you are one guy... so by that justification your opinion would mean nothing.</span>

2)<span style="color: #FF0000">Their service is just part of their justification. And I didn't attack your service record or make any comments about your moms basement so you can take that bullshit spin elsewhere and try swallowing your own advice about staying on track.</span>

3) <span style="color: #FF0000">Again... I haven't said shit about your serving and already knew you had from previous arguments. My only comment was that you had in FACT stated you never carried an M14, so you your knowledge of it as a service rifle is in FACT less than theirs since they do have experience with it. I also said that their knowledge goes beyond just the service rifle aspect.</span>
</div></div>

1) Exactly! Now you are getting it. I am just one guy, so my results by themselves really means nothing. Now if others chime in with the same results, then maybe there is something to what I have been saying? I have an idea, how about we attack each subject matter one by one instead of telling everyone how we served, and how our service record means something.

2) You did not, but others did. I am not spinning it any way, go back and look. That's the beauty of forum discussions, the history is there to see how the conversations lead up to this point. I just don't think carrying a rifle on road marches or spending 6 hours a day cleaning already cleaned guns are good measuring sticks for a rifle. However, you seem to have a different opinion?

3) I don't think carrying a rifle on road marches is a good measuring stick for a rifle. Everyone talks about combat this and combat that, but real results show extended firefights are rare and the average grunt really does not see that much combat. Their were guys in the 101st in WWII, front line guys, been through 4 major operations, and some never even fired their weapons, even as front line troops.

Also for the most part, our weapons were fairly clean when we shot them and we don't stay in combat zones that long.

On the flip side, you take a hobbyist, he shoots about 200 rounds a weekend at times, and he purposely throws dirt on his rifle to see if it still works.

Introducing the Noveske-Cartmann N4 Light! 3000+ rounds and flawless operation even when dirty.

IMG_1307-vi.jpg
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The accuracy of the rifle is important. The M14 was a Designated Marksman rifle, the whole purpose was to extend range of the Infantry platoon to 600 yards. 6MOA wouldn't do for that.

2MOA is acceptable, but if you get the M14 standard rack grade barrel hot at all, the throat will erode out and the guns start to do 3.5MOA. 3.5 is 21" at 600, maybe it's good enough if you shoot in a vacuum without atmospheric conditions, but my point was that the M110 by comparison is 2-4 times better.

When life is on the line only the very best will do, is a marketing message from KAC and with regard to this argument I feel they've correctly applied it.

</div></div>

In addition, I like how AR10 parts are available and we can smith the gun ourselves. Try buying a M14 parts from Springfield and see what happens. I tried to buy a bolt from them and they basically told me to go to hell. I had to give them my rifle. However, my rifles were working. I just wanted a spare.

I don't know what people are smoking when they tell me USGI parts are still easily available. Where? Can you give me a link? Even if they do have them, the price will be absurd.

USGI Bolts anymore, unless I want to pay $425! This is not even a TRW Bolt! this is a Winchester Bolt.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=297470617
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

I don't post that often but I will put my 2cents in on this. I was issued an M14 in 1968 and truly hated it, the accuracy was bad, the exposed bolt would fling water in your eyes until my eyes were watering so bad I couldn't see. The only benefit that I could see with it was that it was longer than an M16 and heavier and thus was a better club. Some of the golfers might disagree with this and say that club speed is more important than weight.
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ElCoyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't post that often but I will put my 2cents in on this. I was issued an M14 in 1968 and truly hated it, the accuracy was bad, the exposed bolt would fling water in your eyes until my eyes were watering so bad I couldn't see. The only benefit that I could see with it was that it was longer than an M16 and heavier and thus was a better club. Some of the golfers might disagree with this and say that club speed is more important than weight. </div></div>

LOL! Awesome. However you are just one guy with one opinion... I will say though. That was dam funny!!!!
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

For those of you that think Springfield Armory International M1A's are quality, you might want to think again. (Talking about SAI, and not the original M14's from the Springfield Armory)

The receiver is the heart of the rifle, and if it is out of spec, then everything will be out of whacked.

Polytechs supposedly are the most USGI dimensionally correct Commercial receivers. This could be all hear say, but I don't think so, because Warbird and SEI both have no problems building around Polytech's. However, the same can't be said of Springfield. With Springfield M1A's, it's hit or miss, sometimes the receivers are so out of spec it will not even allow USGI barrels to bolt up to it. Warbird will refuse to work on your Springfields if the receiver is way out of whacked. Never heard of a Polytech being out of whacked.

But SAI rifles have a limited lifetime warranty, and if you have problems, you can just let them fix it, on their dime... Even if it is on your dime, such as for well used worn out parts, Springfield is always fair in their pricing and they have awesome support.
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The accuracy of the rifle is important. The M14 was a Designated Marksman rifle, the whole purpose was to extend range of the Infantry platoon to 600 yards. 6MOA wouldn't do for that.

2MOA is acceptable, but if you get the M14 standard rack grade barrel hot at all, the throat will erode out and the guns start to do 3.5MOA. 3.5 is 21" at 600, maybe it's good enough if you shoot in a vacuum without atmospheric conditions, but my point was that the M110 by comparison is 2-4 times better.

When life is on the line only the very best will do, is a marketing message from KAC and with regard to this argument I feel they've correctly applied it.

</div></div>

In addition, I like how AR10 parts are available and we can smith the gun ourselves. Try buying a M14 parts from Springfield and see what happens. I tried to buy a bolt from them and they basically told me to go to hell. I had to give them my rifle. However, my rifles were working. I just wanted a spare.

I don't know what people are smoking when they tell me USGI parts are still easily available. Where? Can you give me a link? Even if they do have them, the price will be absurd.

USGI Bolts anymore, unless I want to pay $425! This is not even a TRW Bolt! this is a Winchester Bolt.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=297470617 </div></div>

http://www.raparts.com/Products/m14parts.html

http://treelinem14.com/

http://www.billricca.com/m1_m14.htm

http://estore.odcmp.com/store/catalog/ca...note5=&max=

http://www.shop.m-14parts.com/

http://www.762mmfirearms.com/

Then, of course, Fulton, LRB, SEI

If you're friendly with folks over on m14forum, people will go out of their way to sell you a USGI bolt from their own stash if needed, but LRBs are less expensive. Most bolts will outlive you, the guts need replacement. The info is out there if you want it.
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mescalito</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

http://www.raparts.com/Products/m14parts.html

http://treelinem14.com/

http://www.billricca.com/m1_m14.htm

http://estore.odcmp.com/store/catalog/ca...note5=&max=

http://www.shop.m-14parts.com/

http://www.762mmfirearms.com/

Then, of course, Fulton, LRB, SEI

If you're friendly with folks over on m14forum, people will go out of their way to sell you a USGI bolt from their own stash if needed, but LRBs are less expensive. Most bolts will outlive you, the guts need replacement. The info is out there if you want it.

</div></div>

I guess guys are getting rid of their M14's now! Also great that LRB makes bolts now, be nice if they make Operating Rods too. Those sites you linked to seems to not have any bolts or oprods available.

Talked to Warbird on the phone awhile back, he gives high marks to LRB bolts, but said he will not install bolts from 762mmfirearms.

Nice to see new manufactured parts.. finally! Even if the M14 is no longer a service rifle in any country, I think there is enough interest in them where companies can make a decent living making parts. The 1911 is no longer in service and also a legacy, but that does not stop it's popularity. I would say that the 1911 is more popular than ever.

Don't think I am softening my stance on M1A's either. I still think the AR wins hands down in every category possible. I do own 2 M14 types, and I do like shooting them. I actually don't even need to give one reason why I love my M14's.. because I just do.

I just laugh at people who likes to make the M14 something it's not. I also love to play along. Like I said, get into a M14 versus thread at least 3 times a year because it's fun!
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

This thread is great.

Somehow no ebr vs ar10 thread on the net feels complete without the ultimate m14 fanboy, h20man
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mescalito</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

http://www.raparts.com/Products/m14parts.html

http://treelinem14.com/

http://www.billricca.com/m1_m14.htm

http://estore.odcmp.com/store/catalog/ca...note5=&max=

http://www.shop.m-14parts.com/

http://www.762mmfirearms.com/

Then, of course, Fulton, LRB, SEI

If you're friendly with folks over on m14forum, people will go out of their way to sell you a USGI bolt from their own stash if needed, but LRBs are less expensive. Most bolts will outlive you, the guts need replacement. The info is out there if you want it.

</div></div>

I guess guys are getting rid of their M14's now! Also great that LRB makes bolts now, be nice if they make Operating Rods too. Those sites you linked to seems to not have any bolts or oprods available.

Talked to Warbird on the phone awhile back, he gives high marks to LRB bolts, but said he will not install bolts from 762mmfirearms.

Nice to see new manufactured parts.. finally! Even if the M14 is no longer a service rifle in any country, I think there is enough interest in them where companies can make a decent living making parts. The 1911 is no longer in service and also a legacy, but that does not stop it's popularity. I would say that the 1911 is more popular than ever.

Don't think I am softening my stance on M1A's either. I still think the AR wins hands down in every category possible. I do own 2 M14 types, and I do like shooting them. I actually don't even need to give one reason why I love my M14's.. because I just do.

I just laugh at people who likes to make the M14 something it's not. I also love to play along. Like I said, get into a M14 versus thread at least 3 times a year because it's fun! </div></div>

USGI op rods are available at all but two of those links. LRB and SEI sell new manufacture op rods, maybe Fulton too.
It takes a lot to accurize an M1A, and there are no guarantees that what works as well for one rifle will be as effective on another.
I play longer and straighter with my Calloway Big Bertha woods and X14 irons than I do with more modern technology clubs. Pros don't use em anymore, but they work best for me.
Like you said, don't need a reason other than we dig what we got.
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mescalito</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[
USGI op rods are available at all but two of those links. LRB and SEI sell new manufacture op rods, maybe Fulton too.
It takes a lot to accurize an M1A, and there are no guarantees that what works as well for one rifle will be as effective on another.
I play longer and straighter with my Calloway Big Bertha woods and X14 irons than I do with more modern technology clubs. Pros don't use em anymore, but they work best for me.
Like you said, don't need a reason other than we dig what we got. </div></div>

The M14 is like my King Cobra F Speed, Medium Flex Shaft, it is my preferred Long Distance Stick. I don't know of any Pro's or Operators using the F Speed. I looked on the list of Navy SEALs weapons list, and the F Speed is not on there. In addition, the reviews on Amazon are horrible!
frown.gif


... but regardless it is the stick I will use. I hit longer and straighter than any other driver. When I use other drivers, something always goes wrong. My buddies tell me it's all mental, maybe so, mental or no mental, why fight what works? I have to stick with what works. That's why I don't blame anyone if they want to stick with the M14. As long as it works for you and you can sleep at night, that is all that matters.
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

I think it's pretty clear from a pure accuracy standpoint that an AR platform is better. Probably not too popular a notion with this crowd, but a gun's total value is not found in its ability to pass a bullet through the same hole every time.

My first rifle purchased as a legal adult was an Ar-15. My second was an M1A. My third was an M1 Garand. Of these three guns my favorite is the M1A. I have other rifles, including bolt guns, but the M1A is one that I will always have in my safe. The Garand is a close second.

IMO, even a standard Springfield M1A has more character and is more FUN to shoot than any custom-built, custom-actioned, custom-stock blah blah blah that will ever be built, and cost a fraction of the price. If you don't agree, buy one or borrow one and spend a day with some 150gr surplus ammo.
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: p951951951t</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ultimate m14 fanboy, h20man </div></div>

I swear that guy gets a nickle every time he posts a pic of an M14. Doubt he owns any of them either I remember asking him for range reports on another site and he clammed up. Apparently "...how does it group @ 100 yards?" was too much for him.
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: p951951951t</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ultimate m14 fanboy, h20man </div></div>

I swear that guy gets a nickle every time he posts a pic of an M14. Doubt he owns any of them either I remember asking him for range reports on another site and he clammed up. Apparently "...how does it group @ 100 yards?" was too much for him. </div></div>

I never met H20man in person, but he is good friends with a good buddy of mine. I can say this about H20man, those guns are all his, but I seriously doubt he shoots them. It seems he only reports what Ron Smiths reports. You can search the internet for his shooting buddies, and you won't be able to find any.
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: p951951951t</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ultimate m14 fanboy, h20man </div></div>

I swear that guy gets a nickle every time he posts a pic of an M14. Doubt he owns any of them either I remember asking him for range reports on another site and he clammed up. Apparently "...how does it group @ 100 yards?" was too much for him. </div></div>

I never met H20man in person, but he is good friends with a good buddy of mine. I can say this about H20man, those guns are all his, but I seriously doubt he shoots them. It seems he only reports what Ron Smiths reports. You can search the internet for his shooting buddies, and you won't be able to find any. </div></div>

Cant argue with that.
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

Looks like this one is going to die. I guess I will just have to wait 3 months for the next other-rifle vs. M14 thread
frown.gif
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looks like this one is going to die. I guess I will just have to wait 3 months for the next other-rifle vs. M14 thread
frown.gif
</div></div>

Quitter...
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looks like this one is going to die. I guess I will just have to wait 3 months for the next other-rifle vs. M14 thread
frown.gif
</div></div>

Quitter... </div></div>

Sorry, but I can't bump this thread on my own! LOL
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ssatt68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Come on I was enjoying watching the howler monkeys throw poo around </div></div>

be patient, there is at least one M14-is-the-greatest-battle-rifle-ever VERSUS another-random-rifle thread at least once everyt 3 months.
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looks like this one is going to die. I guess I will just have to wait 3 months for the next other-rifle vs. M14 thread
frown.gif
</div></div>

Quitter... </div></div>

Sorry, but I can't bump this thread on my own! LOL </div></div>

Whats left to say. Both have good and bad about them Nothing is perfect and the M14 wont be replacing the SR25/MK11/M110 anytime. That does not mean the M14 is not a reliable good battle accurate weapon. The M14 is and always has been a shitty sniper rifle
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Whats left to say. Both have good and bad about them Nothing is perfect and the M14 wont be replacing the SR25/MK11/M110 anytime. That does not mean the M14 is not a reliable good battle accurate weapon. The M14 is and always has been a shitty sniper rifle </div></div>

How dare you say that! What's your service record? Did you server? It's easy to post stuff from Mom's basement.

Also you never explained to me how an AR10 bolt blows up in my face.
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Whats left to say. Both have good and bad about them Nothing is perfect and the M14 wont be replacing the SR25/MK11/M110 anytime. That does not mean the M14 is not a reliable good battle accurate weapon. The M14 is and always has been a shitty sniper rifle </div></div>

How dare you say that! What's your service record? Did you server? It's easy to post stuff from Mom's basement.

Also you never explained to me how an AR10 bolt blows up in my face. </div></div>


I dont care what anyones service record is. I do care how much use someone has with a system.

I did explain how the bolts blows up but to make it easier to understand. The ends of the bolt/lugs come loose and the bolt starts back while way to much pressure is still in chambers. This blows case apart and sends shards out.

You have mistook what I said as an attack on all AR10/Sr25 type systems. My problem is with the Armalite system which I have seen far too many problems in that system.
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I dont care what anyones service record is. I do care how much use someone has with a system.

I did explain how the bolts blows up but to make it easier to understand. The ends of the bolt/lugs come loose and the bolt starts back while way to much pressure is still in chambers. This blows case apart and sends shards out.

You have mistook what I said as an attack on all AR10/Sr25 type systems. My problem is with the Armalite system which I have seen far too many problems in that system. </div></div>


So the case blows apart? Interesting. How do bolt lugs come loose? I thought they were fixed? Or are you saying the lugs from the barrel and lugs from the barrels unlocks while case is still in the barrel? I wonder how this happens.

Speaking for myself, and a buddy who has 8 AR10's, we have none of the issues you speak of. Hey would you mind going on the AR15.com AR10 section and discuss this in the AR10 section? We would all like to hear from your awesome knowledge.
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

The fucking lugs shear off. It has happened twice to me but I shoot a shit load more than you do and have for last three decades. Tell you what why dont you show up to this years F Class Nationals Or National Full Bore Championships and show me you vast abilities.

Man asked for experience and advice. I gave mine. You just want to argue. You insulted Gunfighter who is a good man.

I like the M110/MK11/SR25 type systems. As I said I am develolpment process of helping a company bring out a new one. Would not do so if I did not believ the system has lots of value and merritt. GAP makes a version that runs like champ. LaRue makes a version that runs great. KAC makes a system well proven.

Here is my advice to you. Go out and shoot the massive amount of rifles you own some more.

I am off to shoot
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

Easy tactical, his buddy has 8 AR10's, must make him a SME.

Probably has pictures on a camel during Desert Storm too, you know that War where they did all that fighting.
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You insulted Gunfighter who is a good man. </div></div>
I'd not call it an insult, more like many here he was just speaking out of turn,(common here any more). Internet facts, coupled with internet experience, seems to trump it all these days, fine by me. I've resigned that the world wants it that way, so let it be so.
The M14 may be a POS in many eyes, but of all the ones I carried on 4 different floating plates for uncle, none ever failed me. I knew my limits with same, but my Field-Craft was such I could stay within my comfort zone no matter the task, back then. I do find it odd, none experience with said weapon, an expert makes.

The 10 may be all that for bug holes, but bug holes do not win wars, regardless of what hanging posters say. It's the weapon that runs 24/7 for the GI no matter mother, his training, or ability.

I doubt,...ah whats the point,..................
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The fucking lugs shear off. It has happened twice to me but I shoot a shit load more than you do and have for last three decades. Tell you what why dont you show up to this years F Class Nationals Or National Full Bore Championships and show me you vast abilities.

Man asked for experience and advice. I gave mine. You just want to argue. You insulted Gunfighter who is a good man.

I like the M110/MK11/SR25 type systems. As I said I am develolpment process of helping a company bring out a new one. Would not do so if I did not believ the system has lots of value and merritt. GAP makes a version that runs like champ. LaRue makes a version that runs great. KAC makes a system well proven.

Here is my advice to you. Go out and shoot the massive amount of rifles you own some more.

I am off to shoot </div></div>


Do you think the lugs shearing off the bolt is the same thing as blowing up in the face?

I am just trying to find out what happened, because I was not clear in what you said. If I offended you I apologize. Should I curtsy too?

So you think Armalite uses inferior parts? Don't they have a limited lifetime warranty? Or did they not warranty your product?

The Canadian Military seems to be happy with their Armalite AR10s.

I know guns can fail, and I have had failed guns before, and had to send it back to the factory, nothing is 100%. Just because Gun says "GAP" on the side does not mean it will be flawless right out of the box and can serve in extreme conditions.

You can write Armalite off if you want to, it's your money and your life... would it be OK if I keep my AR10's?
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You insulted Gunfighter who is a good man. </div></div>
I'd not call it an insult, more like many here he was just speaking out of turn,(common here any more). Internet facts, coupled with internet experience, seems to trump it all these days, fine by me. I've resigned that the world wants it that way, so let it be so.
The M14 may be a POS in many eyes, but of all the ones I carried on 4 different floating plates for uncle, none ever failed me. I knew my limits with same, but my Field-Craft was such I could stay within my comfort zone no matter the task, back then. I do find it odd, none experience with said weapon, an expert makes.

The 10 may be all that for bug holes, but bug holes do not win wars, regardless of what hanging posters say. It's the weapon that runs 24/7 for the GI no matter mother, his training, or ability.

I doubt,...ah whats the point,..................


</div></div>


How do I get it so I get back in turn? Am I suppose to raise my hand?
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: victory</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Easy tactical, his buddy has 8 AR10's, must make him a SME.

Probably has pictures on a camel during Desert Storm too, you know that War where they did all that fighting. </div></div>

let me guess, you know him? And he can't defend himself so he got you on here?

The conflict I was in only lasted 4 days (4 days = the time when the ground war started to the time the Iraqi's surrendered). We did not do much, but the group I was attached to did encounter live fire from small arms once. Also a guy in my unit got lit up by an M1 Abrams.

We did sleep in tents for a good 4 months though, and I got to see the harshness of the desert first hand. Flash floods, sand storms with high winds, below freezing night time temps, days of 120+ in MOPP4 training. Constantly cleaning our weapons, gear, and vehicles because sand was everywhere.

Not like the guys now, at least the guys now have barracks to go back to.

I don't mind it that I did nothing. I don't need to be a Hero like all you Operators here.
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

Man I would love to meet all you guys in real life!

So now it's back to "what you did in the Service" to determine the merits of the M14.

This place is better than TV! I can cancel my cable now.
 
Re: AR 10 VS M1A EBR

Maybe some day I can be a Cool Kid too, and join your guy's Click, your "Black Panther Party Click".

"I'm sorry I ruined your Black Panther Party" -- Forrest Gump
 
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