An article I wrote with a newer shooter in mind.

[Arboreal]

Does anyone want to help me make this article better or easier to understand? It's still pretty rough. My wife tried to edit it but she had no idea what I was talking about.

http://www.hellsgatetactical.com/2012/07/26/how-to-shoot-long-distances-for-less-money/

 

[emilyee]

Re: An article I wrote with a newer shooter in mind.

I really want to help you but the spirit is willing, the flesh is weak.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: An article I wrote with a newer shooter in mind.

If one really wants to save money, as well as develop skills to an extraordinary level, shoot NRA LR Service Rifle division with an AR based Service Rifle.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: An article I wrote with a newer shooter in mind.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If one really wants to save money, as well as develop skills to an extraordinary level, shoot NRA LR Service Rifle division with an AR based Service Rifle.</div></div>

With iron sights.

 

[wilecoyote]

Re: An article I wrote with a newer shooter in mind.

+1 ,even if not needed

 

[Arboreal]

Re: An article I wrote with a newer shooter in mind.

A National Match AR15, stool, glove, spotting scope, tripod, shooting coat, adds up to a lot of money Sterling. A $400 savage bolt gun, with a sand bag and a $300 scope will get a guy to the F-class High Power line a lot cheaper. I have all of these things, but I'm not as dedicated to irons as you are. I could be convinced that it is a better way to learn to shoot, but I don't think it's cheaper.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: An article I wrote with a newer shooter in mind.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A National Match AR15, stool, glove, spotting scope, tripod, shooting coat, adds up to a lot of money Sterling</div></div>

It doesn't have to be about money. I don't think SS, and I know I don't, mean to say you need all that equipment to learn basic rifle fundamentals.

I'm a CMP GSM Master Instructor, I put on GSM and High Power Clinics. GSM (Vintage Rifles) for example are not that expensive. A $100 Mosin will get you started. Even then most CMP clinics loan rifles and furnish ammo for the clinics.

A heavy jacket, a heavy glove and a piece of carpet will get you a long ways to your goal. Most people have that at home anyway.

It's not about the equipment, its about fundamentals.

The absolute best place to get you started rifle shooting is the CMP's Small Arms Firing School conducted at Camp Perry and other Major CMP matches.

There is a small fee, ($45.00 for adults $30.00 for juniors), not bad when you consider EVERYTHING is furnished.

It's not about money.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: An article I wrote with a newer shooter in mind.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hells Gate</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A National Match AR15, stool, glove, spotting scope, tripod, shooting coat, adds up to a lot of money Sterling. A $400 savage bolt gun, with a sand bag and a $300 scope will get a guy to the F-class High Power line a lot cheaper. I have all of these things, but I'm not as dedicated to irons as you are. I could be convinced that it is a better way to learn to shoot, but I don't think it's cheaper.</div></div>

I read your article. It made me think back to the perspective I had on it all when I first got into it. I thought it was about showing up with a gun that could get the job done. So, the articles I wrote, as well as the LR clinics I put on were mostly about how to zero for LR. At any rate, my perspective on it all has changed dramatically. I see LR competitions today as a way to test and celebrate mastery of the fundamentals. I'm sure you see it differently. The only constructive criticism would be about what sort of scope is necessary to get the job done, and how to go about adjusting it. I zero at 100 yards for LR; thereafter, I re-adjust my sights for a bullet path at 100 yards which will intersect line of sight at 1000 yards. For accurate adjustment all that's needed in a chronograph to measure muzzle velocity. Counters for wind and weather effects on trajectory can be made on match day.

 

[Arboreal]

Re: An article I wrote with a newer shooter in mind.

Sterling,I would like to hear more about what you have to say about scopes. I guess I just see known distance competitions as a place to learn to read wind and have fun(and get beat really bad.) I'm sure that may change in the future. I hope the future has a lot more UKD matches in store though. It would be awesome if the NRA or CMP went down this road.

I read this sentence a few times and I have to admit I don't understand it:

"I zero at 100 yards for LR; thereafter, I re-adjust my sights for a bullet path at 100 yards which will intersect line of sight at 1000 yards."

In a known distance competition a zero is less important. If you have a 308 or a 223 you can usually just ask one of the more experienced competitors what his starting elevation is and go from there. (I've only done NRA competitions with unlimited sighters, I have heard that in CMP that expect you to be zeroed from the beginning.)

What about unknown distance shooting though? Everyone wants to shoot long range for different reasons. They may be tactical reasons or hunting or just competition. I don't think your post addresses this need.

Respectfully

 

[kraigWY]

Re: An article I wrote with a newer shooter in mind.

Hell's Gate:

When I was talking about irons, it was learning the fundmentals. I believe irons is a better venue.

Regardless of whether you shoot irons or scopes you have to have a zero and some range. Once you have one point where you know your rifle can shoot, then you know the "come ups". Either as my mentioned, service rifle, either 308 or 223, with standard loads the come ups are pretty standard from 200 to 300, then 600 and on to 1000, but you still need a zero to start.

An example, when I do GSM Clinics with people using a M1 for the first time. Starting at 200 I tell them to come up (from a bottomed out rear sight) 8 clicks. That will get them on paper and a couple rounds later, a zero.

It works the same way for scopes, Sight the rifle/scope in for 100 yard (example) and if you have cronagraphed your load, you can put the data in any of the balistic calculaters and have the required elevation changed you need.

From a 100 yard zero, you need to come up "X" clicks (moa or mils) to be on at 200, 300, 1000 or what ever range you need.

That's the simple short version.

The fundamentals would still be needed to make the above work.

I notice you live in Ariz. The CMP has the Western Games every year near Phoenix in Oct. I'd highly recommend you think about attending the CMPs Small Arms Firing School they have in conjunction with the CMP Games.

You can go to the CMP website for informations about the Western Games and the SAFS.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: An article I wrote with a newer shooter in mind.

Hell's Gate:

When I was talking about irons, it was learning the fundmentals. I believe irons is a better venue.

Regardless of whether you shoot irons or scopes you have to have a zero and some range. Once you have one point where you know your rifle can shoot, then you know the "come ups". Either as my mentioned, service rifle, either 308 or 223, with standard loads the come ups are pretty standard from 200 to 300, then 600 and on to 1000, but you still need a zero to start.

An example, when I do GSM Clinics with people using a M1 for the first time. Starting at 200 I tell them to come up (from a bottomed out rear sight) 8 clicks. That will get them on paper and a couple rounds later, a zero.

It works the same way for scopes, Sight the rifle/scope in for 100 yard (example) and if you have cronagraphed your load, you can put the data in any of the balistic calculaters and have the required elevation changed you need.

From a 100 yard zero, you need to come up "X" clicks (moa or mils) to be on at 200, 300, 1000 or what ever range you need.

That's the simple short version.

The fundamentals would still be needed to make the above work.

I notice you live in Ariz. The CMP has the Western Games every year near Phoenix in Oct. I'd highly recommend you think about attending the CMPs Small Arms Firing School they have in conjunction with the CMP Games.

You can go to the CMP website for informations about the Western Games and the SAFS.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: An article I wrote with a newer shooter in mind.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hells Gate</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sterling,I would like to hear more about what you have to say about scopes. I guess I just see known distance competitions as a place to learn to read wind and have fun(and get beat really bad.) I'm sure that may change in the future. I hope the future has a lot more UKD matches in store though. It would be awesome if the NRA or CMP went down this road.

I read this sentence a few times and I have to admit I don't understand it:

"I zero at 100 yards for LR; thereafter, I re-adjust my sights for a bullet path at 100 yards which will intersect line of sight at 1000 yards."

In a known distance competition a zero is less important. If you have a 308 or a 223 you can usually just ask one of the more experienced competitors what his starting elevation is and go from there. (I've only done NRA competitions with unlimited sighters, I have heard that in CMP that expect you to be zeroed from the beginning.)

What about unknown distance shooting though? Everyone wants to shoot long range for different reasons. They may be tactical reasons or hunting or just competition. I don't think your post addresses this need.

Respectfully</div></div>

You need to clarify who you are directing your article to. LR is, for the most part, synonymous with 1000 yard NRA governed competitions. Where I live, in fact, to shoot at LR demands entry into competitions, since the only long ranges are on military reservations which are only accessible to civilians when they have entered competitions as authorized by federal law. At any rate, I assumed you were talking about F class. If not, LR can mean most anything from the start for an inexperienced shooter. Keeping the definition tied to some sort of 1000 yard event puts things in perspective. It helps the novice shooter get off to a good start having a basic of understanding for the essentials important to good shooting at LR in any context.

I don't suggest anyone zero their gun on match day. Zeroing for a bullet path at 100 yards which will intersect line of sight at 1000 yards is a solution not requiring the shooter to actually zero at 1000 which can be difficult for a multitude of reasons starting with access to a 1000 yard range on any day other than match day.

 

[Arboreal]

Re: An article I wrote with a newer shooter in mind.

Thanks for the great feedback. I did write the article more for a casual user who may not like the formality of competition. Many people already own a 1000 yard capable rifle and are just in need of a scope that will give enough elevation. Many beginning shooters are happy just to hear steel go bing at long range. Not everyone will take it to the higher levels.

I'm not disputing that irons is a good way to learn how to shoot, but I would like to hear your reasoning why. I have been told that many times, but I have never heard a definitive reason.

Most of the prone high power shooters I have shot with had about $1000 in iron sights in addition to a $1000+ spotting scope to go with it along with a $300 scope stand.

I really likes the CMP concept, but I don't live in the city anymore so it is hard to compete. I just made a deal with a local land owner to put in a 1000 yard range on an abandoned runway. I would like to hold every kind of CMP and NRA event there.
The way it is set up it may be hard to shoot mid ranges though. The 200 yard range shoot over the middle of the 1000 yard range

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: An article I wrote with a newer shooter in mind.

There is no CMP governed LR competition.

Regarding folks who do not want to compete, where I live, to shoot at LR requires one compete, since LR ranges are only open to civilians for competition. LR competition is awesome practice. With scorable targets and pit service, the shooter has knowledge of his work in progress in real time. This is an aid to developing consistency, as well as an understanding for how to properly compensate for wind.

Iron sight Service Rifle LR competition is the most difficult. It requires the development of picture and muscle memory to, as I call it, a molecular level, if the shooter wants to shoot a score as good as a less skilled shooter using a scope. When the talented Service Rifle shooter applies his muscle memory skill to a scoped rifle the results can be quite dazzling. Folks who do not develop basic marksmanship with irons may not ever recognize the importance for a really consistent position since, at least at short range, using a scope the exact understanding of the target/reticle relationship may indeed be enough to assure a good hit. To assure a good hit with irons where the exact relationship between front sight and target is not so easily discerned the shooter needs to muster mastery over everything known to be important to good shooting. The Service Rifle shooter is making up for less than ideal resolution of the target/sight relationship by improving skills in other arenas which can make ideal resolution not so important as it will always be for the less overall accomplished marksman, or pseudo marksman.