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Rifle Scopes Hendoldt or S&B

Re: Hendoldt or S&B

Not trying to beat a dead horse, but I am still trying to figure out what exactly it is you plan to do with a box stock remington and a $3,600 scope.
Did this information sail right by me?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gappa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">wow these are hard decisions to make, that new hensoldt looks amazing but so does the Kahles. which S&B should I get? what's with the CW and CCW turrets? </div></div>


Check you fire! You are about to drop more than $3k on an optic, and are asking what's with CW and CCW turrets?

We might need to take a huge step back and begin this conversation anew.

What do you wish to accomplish with this optic? Be specific. What is your comfort level with optics/
What have you used before - other than Premier?
At what ranges do you typically shoot?
What is your intended target?

It could very well be that what you are looking at will not best meet your needs.
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

yea but I think I would rather buy new, less problems to deal with, I wold rather pay a few hundred more and not have fingerprints of the lenses and you never know how somthing has been treated before you owned it. Buying someone else's problems is BS. <span style="font-weight: bold">I never touch optical lenses, most people are idiots and don't understand that everytime you touch or rub or clean an optical lens you wipe away or degrade the lens coatings</span>
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gappa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yea but I think I would rather buy new, less problems to deal with, I wold rather pay a few hundred more and not have fingerprints of the lenses and you never know how somthing has been treated before you owned it. Buying someone else's problems is BS. <span style="font-weight: bold">I never touch optical lenses, most people are idiots and don't understand that everytime you touch or rub or clean an optical lens you wipe away or degrade the lens coatings</span> </div></div>

I'm pretty sure you don't know what your talking about.
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

yea I ain't made of money but when I do buy somthing I take care of it's my baby. My used stuff all looks or could pass for new stuff, and my opinion of 99% and some douchebags idea of 99% is like my idea of 50%
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gappa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yea I ain't made of money but when I do buy somthing I take care of it's my baby. My used stuff all looks or could pass for new stuff, and my opinion of 99% and some douchebags idea of 99% is like my idea of 50%</div></div>
Ya all those damn douche bags that actually use their stuff are a pain in the ass!
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gappa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yea but I think I would rather buy new, less problems to deal with, I wold rather pay a few hundred more and not have fingerprints of the lenses and you never know how somthing has been treated before you owned it. Buying someone else's problems is BS. <span style="font-weight: bold">I never touch optical lenses, most people are idiots and don't understand that everytime you touch or rub or clean an optical lens you wipe away or degrade the lens coatings</span> </div></div>

I'm pretty sure you don't know what your talking about. </div></div>

I have TENS OF THOUSANDS OF $$$ worth of optical devices including astronomical telescopes and fine optics I think I have an inkling of what I'm talking about. [img:center]http://
2rg2ywj.jpg
[/img]
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bward</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gappa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yea I ain't made of money but when I do buy somthing I take care of it's my baby. My used stuff all looks or could pass for new stuff, and my opinion of 99% and some douchebags idea of 99% is like my idea of 50%</div></div>
Ya all those damn douche bags that actually use their stuff are a pain in the ass! </div></div>

People actually use their stuff bward? My AX sits in a glass case!
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

do this.. take your nicest scope and start rubbing the lens and see how long that beautiful coating lasts!!
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gappa</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gappa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yea but I think I would rather buy new, less problems to deal with, I wold rather pay a few hundred more and not have fingerprints of the lenses and you never know how somthing has been treated before you owned it. Buying someone else's problems is BS. <span style="font-weight: bold">I never touch optical lenses, most people are idiots and don't understand that everytime you touch or rub or clean an optical lens you wipe away or degrade the lens coatings</span> </div></div>

I'm pretty sure you don't know what your talking about. </div></div>

I have TENS OF THOUSANDS OF $$$ worth of optical devices including astronomical telescopes and fine optics I think I have an inkling of what I'm talking about. [img:center]http://
2rg2ywj.jpg
[/img] </div></div>

How cute 10's of thousands of astronomy and "fine" optics...obviously that makes you a expert on Military grade Rifle Optics.
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gappa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">do this.. take your nicest scope and start rubbing the lens and see how long that beautiful coating lasts!! </div></div>

Considering I deal with telecommunication grade fiber optics, I know how to clean them properly without removing coatings.....its actually pretty easy bud. Use the proper tools and your not going to fuck up the coatings on your milspec scope.
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

Been cleaning my oldest S&B for over 6 years now when needed and it hasn't gotten any worse that I can see. As long as you use the right tools for the job and clean per instructions you will be fine.
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rancid Coolaid</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not trying to beat a dead horse, but I am still trying to figure out what exactly it is you plan to do with a box stock remington and a $3,600 scope.
Did this information sail right by me?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gappa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">wow these are hard decisions to make, that new hensoldt looks amazing but so does the Kahles. which S&B should I get? what's with the CW and CCW turrets? </div></div>


Check you fire! You are about to drop more than $3k on an optic, and are asking what's with CW and CCW turrets?

We might need to take a huge step back and begin this conversation anew.

What do you wish to accomplish with this optic? Be specific. What is your comfort level with optics/
What have you used before - other than Premier?
At what ranges do you typically shoot?
What is your intended target?

It could very well be that what you are looking at will not best meet your needs. </div></div>


I plan on shooting at first to 100m then to 2000 meters but slowly upgrading my rifle. and caliber. but need to start big on the optic as not to have to buy another optic.
My AR15 has my Premier Light Tactical 3-15 on it and it's out of the box, no trigger no stock, only a floated barrel with a Daniel Defence float tube and shot 1/2" groups today @ 100m
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

well I did learn most of my optical knowledge dealing with astrophotography and touching or cleaning lenses is often considered taboo unless they are very dirty but most telescope owners advertise their used equipment as "optics have never been touched" now maybe the riflescope coatings are much more durable as I suspect they have to be but I still don't like fingering lenses unless necessary. Those coatings are microns thin and applied in vacuum chambers not "glued on" I had a lens i tested awhile back and rubbed and rubbed with toilet paper and ;slowly but surely the coatings came off
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

General Tips

<span style="font-weight: bold">If it’s not dirty, don’t clean it! Handling optics increases their chances of getting dirty or damaged, so you should clean optics only when necessary.</span>
You should handle optics in a clean, low-dust environment while wearing powder-free acetone-impenetrable gloves or &#64257;nger cots. Since oil and debris from your hands or from used lens tissue can stain or damage optical coatings, you should not touch any transmissive or re&#64258;ective surface of your optic and never reuse a lens tissue. Remember that lens tissues are inexpensive compared to the price of an optic.
Inspect an optic for dust and stains by holding it near a bright visible-light source. Viewing the optic at different angles allows you to see scattering from dust and stains.



REASEARCH IT!
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

ok so no one disagrees with me as not to touch or finger lenses unless necessary?
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gappa</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gappa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yea but I think I would rather buy new, less problems to deal with, I wold rather pay a few hundred more and not have fingerprints of the lenses and you never know how somthing has been treated before you owned it. Buying someone else's problems is BS. <span style="font-weight: bold">I never touch optical lenses, most people are idiots and don't understand that everytime you touch or rub or clean an optical lens you wipe away or degrade the lens coatings</span> </div></div>

I'm pretty sure you don't know what your talking about. </div></div>

I have TENS OF THOUSANDS OF $$$ worth of optical devices including astronomical telescopes and fine optics I think I have an inkling of what I'm talking about. [img:center]http://
2rg2ywj.jpg
[/img] </div></div>

This all makes me glad we only have TENS OF HUNDREDS of $$$ worth of optical devices so I don't feel bad using my T-shirt to wipe some dust/mud/rain drops off. Makes it a lot more fun using our stuff without worrying about ruining it by cleaning it the wrong way.

Topstrap

Topstrap
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gappa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So my new SCHMIDT is OTW baby!!!!

http://www.schmidtundbender.de/en/products/police-and-military-forces/5-25x56-pm-iilpmtclt.html

I mean really how freaking much $$$$$$$$ do you have to spend to get a nice scope these days!
I used to be a Leupold man and to to me they were very nice, glass was good and they tracked and worked very well. But just getting back into shooting and the two REPLACEMENT Leupolds SUCKED ass! The first one had a canted reticle and the replacement had such bad Chromatic Aberration and flare I couldn't stand it. IMHO Leupys glass used to be very nice and my dad still has an older one that looks nice but seems like these "bottom shelf" bottom feeders are in it for the money so if they can get a POS to sell by using their old reputation they are on the way out the door, the competition these days is fierce for our hard earned cash and the one that don't keep their reputations up they won't last long111</div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gappa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">does anyone know the best place to buy this exact scope from?
I can't seem to find one for under about $3600-$3700
http://www.schmidtundbender.de/en/products/police-and-military-forces/5-25x56-pm-iilpmtclt.html</div></div>

i`m confused, at12:48, your scope was on the way , but at4:47, you were looking for a scope? which is it?
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gappa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok so no one disagrees with me as not to touch or finger lenses unless necessary?</div></div>

Speaking only for myself, given your limited knowledge of rifle scopes and the questions asked by you on this site as well as other statements you have made, your opinions hold little weight with me so no reason to argue with you. I will take my years of experience in what works and keep using it.
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MB4810AP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gappa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">reitcle choices I could care less about </div></div>

Lol if you stay in this sport and use the scope as intended then you will come back and laugh at your statement as well.

Having a good workable reticle is key. Both scopes have great glass. You wont be let down but great glass is only part of the solution of hitting the target. Look at the other features including reticles as you don't want to make the rookies mistake and get on the "great glass" tangent and forget other important parts of the decision.

</div></div>


+1 ^^^ when a wise man speak listen and learn </div></div>

But what does he know........
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gappa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had a lens i tested awhile back and rubbed and rubbed with toilet paper and ;slowly but surely the coatings came off </div></div>

You rubbed and rubbed it with TP and you were surprised the coating came off?? Just because quilted northern feels good on your hole does not mean its okay to rub on an optic. There is a reason they send special cloths to clean your lenses with. There is a reason they have special liquids to clean them.

This is one of the most comical threads I have read in a long long time.
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

I have both, and it's really negligeable to me... I prefer the SB only slightly due to the reticle choices, that's it. I like the compact size of the Henny.
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

It's on the way meaning I have the cash in hand and waiting to make the final selection and get it here. BTW thanks guys for the help in making my selection and getting what will will make me happy. Sorry by not stating I have already placed the order and have the tracking number, so sorry for confusing you.
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

"i`m confused, at12:48, your scope was on the way , but at4:47, you were looking for a scope? which is it?" [/quote]

Does look a bit off center. Could be one of those time/space warp things....
smile.gif



OFG
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

On optics cleaning: if the optics are not dirty, there is no compelling need to clean them. However, if you no what you are doing, cleaning them is not going to make a whole lot of difference. Also, keep in mind that modern AR coatings are fairly resistant to abrasion.

On S&B vs Hensoldt: both are superb scopes. The one time I got test the two side by side (both 4-16x models), I slightly preferred the Hensoldt overall. I do like the selection of reticle available in the S&B, but I did not feel particularly short-changed by the Hensoldt reticle.

As far as general considerations on reticle thickness goes, I am likely a lone (or close to it) it liking reticles that are not ultra thin. For example, with S&B, I prefer P4 to P4F. It is just a personal preference, of course.

ILya
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

Speaking of lenses cleaning...
These are Takahashi's instructions as per your manual.

"If the front lens objective has dust or dirt particles on it, use a large hand powered blower to remove the particles. Under no circumstances should dust be removed by any other means. Rubbing the surface will cause scratches.... Then, using cotton swabs slightly moistened with lens cleaner, gently clean the particles off"

After this it goes on to describe how to use a blow dryer to get moisture off of your lenses and that it should be kept in only cool conditions ... being that this is an entirely different animal and is not intended to withstand any type of abuse or elements it still suggested using both cotton and lense cleaner....



Not sure why you felt the need to copy and paste basic instructions from the internet...if you feel frustrated by someones comments you can PM them instead of boasting you personal collection that's irrelevant to the thread or insulting everyone elses advice and experiences they are offering to you.
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gappa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">oh yea I did have a hard time finding one in stock! </div></div>

So which vendor had one in stock?

OFG
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

Hell yea!! Man I gotta be da shiznit at the range!! and everyone has to see that Schmidt and Bender in all it's glory!
Aint nothing wrong with the P4 FIEN reticle is there???
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

Nothing at all wrong with the P4F. It has been around a long time and works very well. Newer choices are the MSR and H2CMR. In addition to reticles will you be getting the standard double turn turrets or the MTC? And then there is CW or CCW to consider. Lots of options is one thing that makes S&B a good choice if you want to spec a scope that is set up to work for you.

OFG
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

If Gappa is buying the scope I think hes buying he and I are in the same boat - neophytes with more money than sense and perhaps an inability to "settle". Do you own a Dillon S1050 when a SDB would be sufficient for your needs - that is me unfortunately but luckily I have a healthy family and a job that allows me to save and buy what I want.

Mile High has had my order 3 months now for a 5-25X56, CCW, MTC with MSR reticle and Spuhr mount. I will be using it to "overscope" my MWS that LMT has scheduled for test firing this week. My rifle will have the FDE plasticware so - truthfully - yes I got sucked in by the fashion color. Kind of want to kote my Spuhr now.

The money spent will not buy the X ring. I am buying hard truth and truth is expensive. Upon delivery of this new equipment I will be faced with the reality that those 5 ring shots are not the fault of my 70 year old Garand/03's - I suck. (HMMMM, Maybe I will name this rifle "Truth")

Gappa, Good luck on your wait. I could care less really about the rifle coming soon. Truth be told I'm more anxious to diddle the S&B. Read alot of the posts on here while you wait, you will learn alot. Your experience with the Hubble telescope has little to do with what goes on at the firing line - read and learn, its not rocket science and its great when the light bulb goes on after following a thread.

Cant wait to get some equipment for practicle application.

Side note I'm looking for KAC. Anyone have a NSN RAS front sight to mate up with the 200-600 rear. I desperately need one of these uber expensive, non available items to mount on my rifle in hopes I'll never use it.
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

Man all these acronyms NSN,RAS,KAC,FDE,SDB,MWS,LMT
im new to all this so it confuses me a little
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

Read Jedi. May the force be with you.
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

Schmidt & Bender or a Hensoldt? Isn't that like trying to choose between Megan Fox or Emma Stone? The only thing better than either one, would be BOTH!
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sniperaviator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Schmidt & Bender or a Hensoldt? Isn't that like trying to choose between Megan Fox or Emma Stone? The only thing better than either one, would be BOTH! </div></div>

UH megan fox DUH!! Then Scarlett Johansson
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

i just ordered the premier, just want to know why u dont like the scope?<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gappa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">reitcle choices I could care less about I want clarity, clarity, clarity. I want to look through a scope and go AHHHHHHHHHH. To me a reticle is just a crosshair. I am sooooo pissed with premier right now I feel like smashing them on the ground!</div></div>
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

The problem with the clean/no-clean debate is folks are discussing two different worlds so both parties are correct. Cleaning anything over an arbitrarily long period of time will result in image degradation and damage to the surface. You can drip water over a rock long enough and it'll wear smooth like a pebble. The question is...will this damage negatively impact the optical quality seen by the end-user? Probably not.

The issue is that the human eye is limited in resolution compared to lab equipment and it's subjective and selective. The human brain is very good at selectively processing what it sees and filling in the gaps. Everyone has a dead spot in their vision around the very center of their field-of-view where the optic nerve collects at the rear of your eyeball. The brain simply fills in this dead spot with data to make it appear continuous. Anyone that wears glasses and have an old pair full of very superficial scratches can point out that while they're visible on the surface, they don't really impact the clarity of what you see when the glasses are worn. Deeper scratches do affect your vision if you consciously look for them, but your brain filters them out.

With rifle scopes, we're only processing the transmitted images with our eyeballs. The microscopic damage we might be putting on there is negligible and the AR coatings on sport and military optics tend to be thicker and more robust. US Optics specifically recommends using filtered acetone to clean their lenses. The image goes through the scope and it has to exit to a size several mm in diameter, enough to enter our pupil.

With microscopy, astrophotography, and camera equipment, you're taking an image and focusing them down to a small CCD sensor at a high enough resolution that allows you to blow up that image up to the size of a billboard and still remain crystal clear. That's much different. In these fields, manufacturers (some which also make sport optics) do recommend you minimize, or never clean the lenses at all. Most people that run SLR cameras will specifically use a sacrificial "skylight" filter on their lenses to take all the dust and scratches, and throw those out for a new one because they don't clean their lenses...this despite the fact adding one more optical element degrades the image slightly. The physics are the same but the requirements aren't. The coatings on astronomical lenses and the glass material are much more sophisticated than rifle scopes in a sense because they're trying to minimize certain types of aberrations and distortions that aren't a problem in sport optics. It's fairly uncommon or unheard of to find apochromatic lens assemblies or fluorite glass on sport optics but they're almost standards on high quality astronomy gear.
 
Re: Hendoldt or S&B

^^^^Thats exactly what I always thought but just didnt know how to say it. Thank you!
 
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