A Marines' vies on the CMP Vintage Sniper Match

[kraigWY]

Good read on the CMP's Vintage Sniper Match.

http://www2.marines.mil/unit/hqmc/Pages/Historic-rifles-shoot-down-range-once-more.aspx#.UCUXwTGe6kV

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Re: A Marines' vies on the CMP Vintage Sniper Match

From the article:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shooting for a two inch 10 ring at 600 yards in constantly changing winds is not an easy task, said Gowen.

First place went to Douglas Armstrong a civilian competitor from Lexington, N.C., who shot a perfect score of 200 out of 200 points, which means that every shot he fired landed in the 10 ring.
</div></div>

...with a vintage sniper rifle in shifting winds at 600??!!??

Wondering if when the article talked about a 2 inch '10 ring'... they really meant the X-ring. Because shooting a 'possible' on a 2" ring at 600 with a vintage rifle in shifting winds under time constraint seems a bit outside the realm of possibility.

That said, even if the target had a 6 inch 10 ring... or a 12 inch 10 ring... the guy is one heck a shot! Victory well-earned!!

Does anyone know the target specs? I am curious.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[kraigWY]

Re: A Marines' vies on the CMP Vintage Sniper Match

At the 300 yard stage the X ring is 3 inches, the 10 ring is 7 inches.

At the 600 yard stage the X ring is 6 inches, the 10 ring is 12 inches.

So to clean the 600 yard target with an korean war or ealier military surplus rifle is an accomplishment.

 

[Joop]

Re: A Marines' vies on the CMP Vintage Sniper Match

Edit: I see that Kraig beat me to it!

That caught my attention, as well. The 600 yard target for this match is the MR-1. The X-ring is 6 inches and the 10 ring is 12 inches. So, 1 and 2 MOA at 600 yards. Not sure where the "two inches" part came from. From a bench with my 91/30 snipers, keeping them in the 10 ring is not too difficult. However, when you're prone off bags with the sweat dripping in your eyes and the pressures of time and competition to deal with, everything changes, real quick! To shoot a clean at that range, under those conditions, is difficult with any vintage sniper rifle. My hat is off to the winning team.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Re: A Marines' vies on the CMP Vintage Sniper Match

Thanks! That makes a lot more sense.

And as both you guys said... that's still some damn fine shooting under time constraints and conditions. Better than I would probably do, that's for sure!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[Daniel Hall]

Re: A Marines' vies on the CMP Vintage Sniper Match

The winning team had a 398 out of 400. Both shooters gave an outstanding performance. I would like to know if they used original or new barrels. I only shot a 189. Considering building a rifle from parts of 4 different rifles a few days before the match and using a Leatherwood reproduction USMC 8X, I was happy with my score. The Camp Perry Vintage Sniper Match was My first vintage match. I got my 600 yard zero during the 5 minute sighting period. It was great to be back at Camp Perry after a 17 year layoff from service rifle shooting. I would encourage others to try the vintage sniper match, it was a no pressure good time. If you have a rifle with a scope that will elevate about 20 inches above a 100 yard point of aim, you should be OK for 600 yards. My 1903 Springfield with 175 grain bullets grouped 18.5 inches above a 100 yard point of aim. That was with the 600 yard zero I had from Camp Perry.

 

[Joop]

Re: A Marines' vies on the CMP Vintage Sniper Match

Dan,

Have you had any trouble with calculated adjustments in the Leatherwood? Or, are you just doing it with hold-overs/trial and error? At one of the matches that I shot this summer, there was a gent who was having trouble with his and ran out of windage. He has been through four of those scopes and all were returned with some type of issue/failure. Meanwhile, the guy with the original Unertl, on the other side of me, was having no trouble at all and shot very high scores. I was just wondering how repeatable they may be and would prefer to hear it from somebody with real experience.

Thanks,

John (sorry for the hijack)

 

[Daniel Hall]

Re: A Marines' vies on the CMP Vintage Sniper Match

Joop, I do not have a lot of experience with the scope. I do have a lot of experience in high power shooting but have been inactive for a number of years. I got a 300 yard zero on 7-29 and shot my first Vintage Sniper Match at Camp Perry on 8-1. Zeroing the rifle I found that the 1/4 minute clicks produced a greater shift of impact than 1/4 min. I also noticed backlash when changing direction. Other competitors at CP confirmed what I found. One guy told me 1 minute would be one division or 2 clicks on the adjustment knob scale. At the Nationals I clicked for elevation and made a major windage correction that was short of the windage actually needed. At that point I favored as the wind picked up or let off. For 600 yards I clicked up approximately 10 minutes and made a major windage adjustment then favored. The person you saw having trouble may have been clicking the windage and elevation back and forth and became a victim of backlash. I anticipated not to let that happen to me. Trying to click for a fish tailing condition, I believe would have adverse consequences. The optics were clear and I could see the mirage while shooting. Others like myself used the scope with success. Since the Nationals I put a Unertl rear mount on my scope. I also plan to build another 1903 with a new barrel and do more testing. I made a suggestion to Leatherwood that they consider offering an upgrade mount for the serious competitors, hope they do. Overall a 1903 with a leatherwood 8x has an advantage over a 1903-A4 with an M73B1, M82, or M84 scope. It was a little hard being a run of the mill competitor on Viale Range after having been one of the top dogs with the M14 on the 1000 yard line, but that was over 15 years ago. I just reread your question about how repeatable the scope is. you should be able to bring the scope back to a known zero by always moving to that point from the same direction. Move up to elevation your different yard zeros and from Left to Right or R to L for no wind zero.

 

[Daniel Hall]

Re: A Marines' vies on the CMP Vintage Sniper Match

Joop, I need to make a correction. One minute is two divisions on the turret and that woks out closer to 4 clicks per minute. I personally had a problem zeroing rifle basing correction on 1/4= 1 click. Today I was talking to a CMP armorer about the leather wood 8X. He told me that he checked his scope clicks with a dial indicator and found a consistent .008 per click. He also felt backlash was not a problem. I pan to clamp my mount in a mill vice and indicate it and check it against a Unertl. The other issue some shooters expressed was about the mount clamps yielding. Neither of us had a problem with the clamp and felt I was most likely shooters over torquing the base clamp. I would not discourage anyone from trying the Leatherwood USMC 8X, it is a reasonably priced alternative to an original. All considered , I think the scope is OK. I am grateful that they made this scope available to use shooters. I would not have made it to Camp Perry with a 1903 without the repro scope. There are some variables between the shooters you saw with the original Unertl scope and the repro. You need to know their skill level, ability to read wind, accuracy of the rifle, and accuracy of their ammo to make a comparison.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: A Marines' vies on the CMP Vintage Sniper Match

What combination was Mr. Armstrong shooting?