Sidearms & Scatterguns 45 ACP or 357 Sig

[Tackleberry]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

Go talk with John Browning and all the guys from WW1 and WW2. The 45acp was made to do one thing and one thing only. Put the bad guy on his butt, period. There is a very valid reason the 45 has been around so long and the military continues to go back to it after being forced to use lesser weapons, it just works! 357 sig is certainly a great gun just not my first choice to defend myself.

 

[C.West]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

I don't believe I am looking for a quiet experience at all. From my own personal experience, the .357 Sig has considerable more "blast" than other service calibers. Not directly speaking noise levels here. I can however, attest to this round as being most unpleasant when fired from inside a vehicle. Then again, what isn't without hearing protection...

 

[mnhntr]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

I own both the 357sig and 45acp in HK USPc's and carry the 45acp. The only reason is that if in a SHTF situation it is more likely that I can find 45acp on a officer or dead BG to reload mags.

 

[BravoSector1]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

I owned a Sig in .357 sig. Great gun...but became an unnecessary caliber for me. In a six inch hunting semiautomatic handgun...or a subgun (even better) I like the ballistics and energy but the 147gr 9mm rounds being produced today are very effective. Want bigger chunks of lead..fine, .45ACP. .40S&W doesn't excite me either. The Glock 24 is MORE fun, and more accurate...for me, with the 9mm barrel in it. Both calibers (9mm and .45) tend to be less expensive for bulk ammo buys.

 

[dlklamfo]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

I would choose which ever one you personally shot better. The OP has owned both so to me it seems like he should go with the round that fit him the best. If you can't hit them it won't matter what you're slinging at them!!!

 

[Miles2go]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Veer_G</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.45 ACP vs. Crown Vic, the next caliber war. </div></div>

By weight, the Crown Vic is definitely cheaper to run.

 

[Veer_G]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Miles2go</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Veer_G</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.45 ACP vs. Crown Vic, the next caliber war. </div></div>

By weight, the Crown Vic is definitely cheaper to run.


</div></div>

Yeah, butcha gotta hog out an elephant skin to make a holster for anything in that caliber.

 

[E. Bryant]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Miles2go</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Veer_G</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.45 ACP vs. Crown Vic, the next caliber war. </div></div>

By weight, the Crown Vic is definitely cheaper to run. </div></div>

Kinda tough to conceal, even compared to a Glock 21. That's why I prefer the old Caprice 9C1 - it had more of a carry melt

 

[Veer_G]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric Bryant</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Miles2go</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Veer_G</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.45 ACP vs. Crown Vic, the next caliber war. </div></div>

By weight, the Crown Vic is definitely cheaper to run. </div></div>

Kinda tough to conceal, even compared to a Glock 21. That's why I prefer the old Caprice 9C1 - it had more of a carry melt

</div></div>

*SIGH* I drove a '94 ... although I was more partial to the squared-off, downsized ones from the late 70s.

 

[warpig602]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mnhntr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I own both the 357sig and 45acp in HK USPc's and carry the 45acp. The only reason is that if in a SHTF situation it is more likely that I can find 45acp on a officer or dead BG to reload mags. </div></div>

Yep, my bug out guns are 9mm for that reason. Actually its a 226 in 357 Sig with a 9mm and .40 conversion barrels. Almsot guaranteed to find one of those laying around.

 

[warpig602]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BravoSector1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I owned a Sig in .357 sig. Great gun...but became an unnecessary caliber for me. In a six inch hunting semiautomatic handgun...or a subgun (even better) I like the ballistics and energy but the 147gr 9mm rounds being produced today are very effective. Want bigger chunks of lead..fine, .45ACP. .40S&W doesn't excite me either. The Glock 24 is MORE fun, and more accurate...for me, with the 9mm barrel in it. Both calibers (9mm and .45) tend to be less expensive for bulk ammo buys. </div></div>

Ammo price isnt really a concern. I relaod just about everything I shoot and it usually doesnt play a role in deciding a carry caliber. I guess the main point of my post was to see if everyone agreed that 8+1 of 357 was equal to 6+1 of .45,all else being equal. In which case I think id opt for the extra 2 rounds.

 

[warpig602]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: attherange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">45acp, the sig has too much blast for unprotected ears and I am deaf enough as it is. </div></div>

Agreed, it is loud, but I dont really factor that in when choosing a caliber for carry. I cant imagine any claiber that isnt going to to damage to hearing, especially when fired from the confines of a vehicle.

 

[warpig602]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

Here are the culprits in question..

 

[Longguns]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hatidua</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've owned both and still have the .45 </div></div>
+1 on this. .357 sig is bad but the .45 is a whole easier to find ammo for. Plus I like bigger bullets.

 

[warpig602]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hatidua</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've owned both and still have the .45 </div></div>
+1 on this. .357 sig is bad but the .45 is a whole easier to find ammo for. Plus I like bigger bullets. </div></div>

I cant think of a single time when I couldnt find 357 Sig ammo.

 

[C.West]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

Ive found .357 Sig in most places where ammo is sold. There have been a few exceptions (Chattanooga) Lol. Buy yourself a few boxes of carry ammo and load the rest. Problem solved. VTR - I was just recently in Big Daddys store in South Pittsburg. Actually I guess its just right into AL. However I was fairly impressed with their inventory. I had my doubts when I first pulled in the parking lot.

OP - sorry for the hijack

 

[warpig602]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Colt West</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OP - sorry for the hijack </div></div>

No worries, I think this thread has served its purpose.

 

[warpig602]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

Ended up deciding to stay with the 239, looks like ill have a p245 up for trade!

 

[ShortRangeSniper]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

Higher velocity MAY mean more penetration and possibly over penetration, but it also means more expansion with the right ammo.

I'll say it up front, I have never had a 357 anything and i am not a 45 fan. My opinion, and my opinion only, but a 40 will do everything a 357 will do, and the mag capacity is never going to change. The biggest limitation with the 45 is going to be mag capacity, so might as well go 40 (or 357 in your case).

Personally I love the P239, i just acquired my second a couple of days ago, after getting rid of the first a year ago. It is a sweet shooting gun, but based on weight, size, and mag capacity, there are better options out there. I found it a pain to carry, especially when we go months at a time in the 100s every day.

 

[normbal]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

The Gospel, according to John (Moses Browning). Amen.

http://www.frfrogspad.com/jmb.htm

 

[Veer_G]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ShortRangeSniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Personally I love the P239, i just acquired my second a couple of days ago, after getting rid of the first a year ago. It is a sweet shooting gun, but based on weight, size, and mag capacity, there are better options out there. I found it a pain to carry, especially when we go months at a time in the 100s every day.</div></div>

Wow. A P239 is a PITA? Back in the 80s I was running around most days with a S&W 586 4" and a 2 3/4" Ruger SS backup in a Berns-Martin shoulder rig, hot, cold, in-between, whatever. Man up and lug a proper cannon, for the sake of Pete.

 

[warpig602]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ShortRangeSniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Higher velocity MAY mean more penetration and possibly over penetration, but it also means more expansion with the right ammo.

I'll say it up front, I have never had a 357 anything and i am not a 45 fan. My opinion, and my opinion only, but a 40 will do everything a 357 will do, and the mag capacity is never going to change. The biggest limitation with the 45 is going to be mag capacity, so might as well go 40 (or 357 in your case).

Personally I love the P239, i just acquired my second a couple of days ago, after getting rid of the first a year ago. It is a sweet shooting gun, but based on weight, size, and mag capacity, there are better options out there. I found it a pain to carry, especially when we go months at a time in the 100s every day. </div></div>

I actaully go to a P239 when my 226 and 229 become a pain, which is rare.

 

[warpig602]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Veer_G</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ShortRangeSniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Personally I love the P239, i just acquired my second a couple of days ago, after getting rid of the first a year ago. It is a sweet shooting gun, but based on weight, size, and mag capacity, there are better options out there. I found it a pain to carry, especially when we go months at a time in the 100s every day.</div></div>

Wow. A P239 is a PITA? Back in the 80s I was running around most days with a S&W 586 4" and a 2 3/4" Ruger SS backup in a Berns-Martin shoulder rig, hot, cold, in-between, whatever. Man up and lug a proper cannon, for the sake of Pete. </div></div>

memories, used to lug around a 4in 686. Now a beast by todays standards.

 

[gunnut284]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Veer_G</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric Bryant</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: G-31</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The picture I'm looking at shows the second smallest round doing the most damage. </div></div>

The question at hand was the concern of over-penetration. Despite the velocity advantage of the .357Sig over the ordinary 9x19mm, it does not penetrate substantially further and thus this is a non-issue. </div></div>

I'll take it a step further. Look at the size and the immediacy of the wound channels, both temp and permanent, of the .357 SIG. </div></div>

Temporary cavity in gelatin, while impressive looking, is of no practical consideration when comparing performance on body tissue at handgun velocities (<2000 fps). Body tissue does not react the same as gelatin, it can stretch more and temporary cavity is not a measure of effectiveness for handguns. Expanded diameter of the projectile and penetration depth are the reliable measurements of performance.

 

[noz455sd]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

I took a mule deer doe at about 110yrds with my 226 in 357sig and it dropped it immediately. I somehow feel the 45 could not have done that as well at the same distance

 

[excess]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

When I think pistol I think self defense, and I think of distances well inside 50 yards. If I was 110 yards from an aggressor and all either of us had was a pistol, my first thought would be seeking cover or putting even more distance between us.

 

[warpig602]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SuppressorJunkie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I took a mule deer doe at about 110yrds with my 226 in 357sig and it dropped it immediately. I somehow feel the 45 could not have done that as well at the same distance </div></div>

The 357 is laser compared to the .45. Its funny that you can use a 357 magnum and .40 here but you cant use a 357 Sig for hunting

 

[warpig602]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When I think pistol I think self defense, and I think of distances well inside 50 yards. If I was 110 yards from an aggressor and all either of us had was a pistol, my first thought would be seeking cover or putting even more distance between us. </div></div>

I agree, but you never know when you might have to take that shot.

 

[noz455sd]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

A 100 yards with my 45 is a lob to say the least. I was using 125grn Speer gold dot bullets that I had hand loaded and they are made specifically for 357sig. The shot never really felt far and the bullet did exit but could not have had to much velocity left because those bullets turn into lead parachutes. With the slim guns you can get this cal in plus the high capacity and high potency of the round the 357sig to me is a excellent cartridge but the 45 has its place also. The ability to hit a target at a greater distance accurately is a good thing to me wether or not 99% of handgun combat is under 25yards. Also for me sight recovery is faster on my sig but also it's two different guns... A 226 vs 1911 so that could be unfair? I still love the 45 and both are very deadly

 

[noz455sd]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

Oh and about them being louder maybe so but my damn little 380 is the loudest of them all with its tiny little barrel

 

[Veer_G]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gunnut28</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The .357s performance is overstated by it's fans and in some cases actually penetrates less that some of the better performing 9mm loads (speed does not necessarily equal penetration). Check out Winchester's LE ammo site for their testing. I'm perfectly comfortable with 9mm but if I want something bigger I'll go with the .45. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gunnut284</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Temporary cavity in gelatin, while impressive looking, is of no practical consideration when comparing performance on body tissue at handgun velocities (<2000 fps). Body tissue does not react the same as gelatin, it can stretch more and temporary cavity is not a measure of effectiveness for handguns. Expanded diameter of the projectile and penetration depth are the reliable measurements of performance. </div></div>

Run the average .45 ACP 230gr JHP death-ray on one side of a significant barrier, and then run a .357 SIG 125gr JHP through the same, and compare what's left to deal with the soft tissue "target" on the other side. I love the .45 ACP, but if you absolutely, positively gotta reach out to someone, I don't want something that goes *SPLAT* in the opposite door panel of an Oldsmobile. And as far as the temporary channel goes, I'm a contrarian.

 

[noz455sd]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

So your saying the 357 is not as good at penetrating barriers or the 45?

 

[boomdoggie]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

All I know is after watching TX Highway Patrols qualifying when I did my last yearly duty qaulification I went out and bought a 226. They were training to shoot at 100 yards. I think it was more for mental reasons but damn it was a sight to see. Also when they shot thought a windshield it was really impressive no real deflection at all.

 

[65nut]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9tMqnNXaDY

i kinda like watching this guys test vids. here is a 357 sig vid. but he also has a lot of diff. 45 ammo tests.

i like both but use the 357 sig for a pocket rocket.

 

[Dark Horse]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

For purely home defense a 125gr .357 Sig JHP at 1500 fps will be more effective than just about any other round in terms of energy transfer and penetration, provided there is a proficient shooter pulling the trigger.

A round that fragments in soft tissue causes severe trauma, hence the effectiveness of the old .357 Magnum round. A .223 bullet that impacts beyond the magic 225-250 meters from the shorter barrels no longer has the velocity to cause it to blow up inside tissue and it basically cuts a .22 caliber hole and over penetrates unless bone is contacted.

The lighter .45 rounds (185gr-200gr JHP's) also exhibit tendencies to fragment and transfer a lot of energy into soft tissue so I don't believe choosing either caliber would leave you hanging.

Which ever one you shoot more accurately and allows better shot placement is a no-brainer.

Eliminate JHP's from your mind if shooting through barriers is a concern. This is where bonded bullets and expansion take over. At that point the .357 Sig penetrates barriers much better due to velocity and the smaller cross section of the bullet.

Anyone can certainly stop an attacker with excellent shot placement. But the ratio of excellent shooters to your average Joe is far from ideal. Factor in a target that isn't going to stand there and let you shoot them and the duress of being in that situation to begin with, choosing a tool that gives a better chance of survival sounds reasonable.

If I can accurately put rds on target that give me even a slight advantage due to transfer of energy inside the body, then the choice is a simple one.

I believe there is a fine line when it comes to handgun calibers because of what they do inside their target. That said, they are by no means a rifle or shotgun.

 

[noz455sd]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

Im with you dark horse...and I dont like people saying if you cant do it in 6 shots you shouldnt be shooting. You never know what you will need extra shots for and how well you will truly will be able to aim under duress...Some people mentally shit the bed and that person could be your own self.

 

[C.West]

Re: 45 ACP or 357 Sig

I am a .357 Sig fan and have been for years. That being said, I no longer own a sidearm in this chambering. I have, on 3 different occasions been put in a situation where an animal had to be dispatched upon recovery while carrying a G31 with Speer factory 125 gr GD. Point being, Two whitetail doe, and one coyote. All took a round to the top of the head only to have the bullet remain in the head. Good or bad thing? I dont know. It no doubt got the job done. However, it did surprise me that the bullets did not exit.