shoulder cracking

[psubond]

so i sat down after finally getting my reloading bench all set up and all my supplies. going step by step with the rcbs online guide and the speer manual in my lap and when i got to the "inspect cases" step (step 1) i noticed that at least half of them had cracks in the shoulder area. this is a brand new rifle (Remington 700 sps tactical) and i was shooting "new" (still factory sealed) pmp 150gr psp rounds. not sure how old they are but i got a good deal from a friend so i was getting used to the rifle using them and was planning on using the brass to reload.


my question is what could cause this issue? everything i read about headspacing says that the cracks should be near the case head if that's it. could it be the age of the brass or is it an overpressure issue or maybe something else?


i'm going to go buy a box of recently manufacutred ammo tomorrow and shoot it to see what happens with that but this is bugging me so any help would be appreciated.


tl;dr case shoulders are cracking and i don't know why

 

[Rookie]

Re: shoulder cracking

Since you are new here and new to reloading, let me ask a stupid question - are you sure they are cracked? Can you show us some pictures? Have you tumbled the brass to make sure you arent mistaken? You may have a headspace problem but in my experience, brass will generally split at the web in those instances.

P.S. If you complete your profile, you may find that you live close enough to someone here that can come help you get set up.

 

[Temp9]

Re: shoulder cracking

Try again with new, quality ammunition. Old, foreign ammo can be a bit iffy. There are plenty of things that could lead to brittle brass over its lifetime. Exposure to ammonia, for example.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: shoulder cracking

Honestly, never heard of "shoulder cracking"? Is this lengthwise or otherwise? I can't think of a reason other than, (perhaps) incorrect ammunition in rifle?

Age of brass seems doubtful, and you are right, excessive headspace usually causes a failure just ahead of the web. Are you sure there is not an obstruction inside the chamber? Maybe steel chips, something like that? Use a brass brush at least 45 caliber and clean the chamber area.
BB

 

[psubond]

Re: shoulder cracking

here is a pic of what they are doing. some don't have this crack some have two

 

[Gunny81]

Re: shoulder cracking

Those brass have been fired a few times. I use to get slits in the neck of my .308 brass when I got into the 6th or 7th reload with them without annealing. Lapua brass or norma will last a little longer without, but the neck wall thickness is deteriorating with each reload. IMHO, try annealing and check thickness, length and pay attention of how many times you've shot and reloaded each round.

 

[former naval person]

Re: shoulder cracking

Toss. Don't ruin a chamber. Start with new. JMHO

 

[1J04]

Re: shoulder cracking

Yep, that's a "crack" alright. Just for shits and giggles I'd stop shooting "that" brass. Then I'd mic the hell outta the length, shoulder and neck just for fun on both shot and un-shot rounds. Then I'd probably pull my firing pin and chamber a few to see if my bolt closed without resistance on loaded and unloaded brass. Gonna have to go through process of elimination.

Best bet? Brittle Brass. Why? Ain't new or is in poor condition for some reason. I'd clean the hell outta my gun too just to make sure I didn't have a brass/wire jig bristle or some other object hiding in there somewhere. Wouldn't hurt.

Could ya take a picture of the stamp on a few of these either with and/or without primers in them? Curious.

FYI I've had this exact same phenomena with my 7Mag in the past with Remington Brass after approximately 4-5 reloads. I was FL sizing on every reload and never annealed. Started over fresh from scratch regarding brass type (Winchester), cleaned dies, reset sizer die, etc, etc. Then started tossing brass after 4 shots, but that's just me. Wasting money and brass? Maybe, but I don't have "that" problem anymore so I got peace of mind.

Let us know what new store bought ammo does, very curious. Best of luck !!

 

[1J04]

Re: shoulder cracking

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former naval person</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Toss. Don't ruin a chamber. Start with new. JMHO </div></div>


+1

LOL. Now there's the short and to the point version. 100% agree, but I'd still wanna know why. But I would "STOP" shooting that stuff.

 

[105amatt]

Re: shoulder cracking

+1 for getting rid of that ammo. If your reloading, buy a couple bags of new brass, if your not get some quality match ammo. If the problem continues then I would be concerned, but like gunny said, that brass looks used up.

 

[psubond]

Re: shoulder cracking

i'll use up the boxed ammo i have after inspecting it but i'm not going to reload any of it. i have 100 rounds of unprimed winchester brass otw to load

here's the headstamp pics that were requested as well as a couple other pics

 

[former naval person]

Re: shoulder cracking

Why to stop shooting it? Easy. High pressure erosive gases come out of that crack each time it breaks. That can erode the metal underneath. A little or a lot. Why take a chance on bumming up your chamber. Unless you don't mind spending a couple of hundred clams to set the barrel back and rechamber...especially since you just saved $20 on crap ammo. JMHO

 

[psubond]

Re: shoulder cracking

so should i just scrap the loaded ammo too then?

 

[oldfatguy]

Re: shoulder cracking

Yes. Not worth saving a few $$$ vs the risk to your chamber.


OFG

 

[Cacciatore]

Re: shoulder cracking

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Psubond</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so should i just scrap the loaded ammo too then? </div></div>

Definitely. Load up that winchester and get shooting. Don't waste your time with that brass.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: shoulder cracking

I didn't understand that this was new factory ammunition, somehow that escaped me?

Put me down with those that advise not shooting any more of it. I don't see any salvage either, shitcan all of it. Maybe it won't hurt your chamber and maybe it will but I wouldn't waste any more time on it.

Still, I don't understand why it is happening? I'm curious to know, but would not suggest trying it in a different rifle. <shrug> Forget it.
BB

 

[LR-Reaper]

Re: shoulder cracking

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Psubond</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i'll use up the boxed ammo i have after inspecting it but i'm not going to reload any of it. i have 100 rounds of unprimed winchester brass otw to load

here's the headstamp pics that were requested as well as a couple other pics

</div></div>

If you look at the primer of your one spent casing it is very obvious that there is a little cratering going on. This is a sign of excessive pressure, that plus brittle casings could very well be all your problem is. Either way I agree with everyone else when they recommend tossing that lot of ammunition.

 

[psubond]

Re: shoulder cracking

from what i read the newer remington 700s are designed to intentionally crater the primer. something about strengthining it.

 

[Advokaten]

Re: shoulder cracking

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Psubond</div><div class="ubbcode-body">from what i read the newer remington 700s are designed to intentionally crater the primer. something about strengthining it. </div></div>

That just cant be, please do post a link to that statement,

cratering is a sign of piss poor fitting between firing pin and firing pin hole in the bolt.

/CHris

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: shoulder cracking

I've seen this with Chinese .223 brass on the first firing. The cases exhibited very poor finish, showed no indications of production annealing, and had a yellowish tint. Based on this, I'd say that material composition and production treatment has to be a factor.

What I've heard and seen of many versions of NATO battle pack ball ammo is that it's often loaded hot. This isn't necessarily a negative, but it can explain pressure signs.

Except for plinking or SHTF, I can't find a rationale for using the stuff at all. Normally, if the ammo could be considered safe, it'd work for training beginners in FF&F (firearm feeding and functioning), but this stuff doesn't come across to me as safe enough for that.

Greg

 

[psubond]

Re: shoulder cracking

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-445229.html


i found many different articles refering to this and i might try to call remington just to verify this myself as well, but it sure does seem like it's intentional.


ok just got off the phone with remington, they said that they put a bevel on the firing pin hole to cause some of the metal to flow back into it thickening the primer at that point thus strengthening it. started in 2008

 

[1J04]

Re: shoulder cracking

Thanks for the pics. Now it's all sunk in. PMP brass + new outta the box + split neck/shoulder = Shit Can. Buy good brass and play with your reloading toys. Problem solved. Follow up with results if ya would.

 

[SavageLapua]

Re: shoulder cracking

My Sendero 7mmRM craters the hell out of primers... Even on 150gr factory Federal Fusion rounds... I'd worry more about ejector marks than primer cratering.

Back to topic, I'd pitch them too...

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: shoulder cracking

Okay, now what, exactly is PMP brass? I have some 270W and 22-250 PMC brass, (believe it's made in South Korea), and it's very good quality. Same place?
BB

edit: Not that I know anything about remedies for weak primer metal, but whoever thought of this solution at Remington should have his ass kicked.

 

[1J04]

Re: shoulder cracking

PMP, according to "TheHighRoad.org" is outta South Africa. Jury is out whether it's still in production from what I gather, don't know for sure. PMC as ya know is well known (in my limited experience) as not worth a whole helluva lot either. Seems to always be a price to pay for the cheaper stuff. Never cracked any, but did have some serious tolerance issues with some 7MM 120gr "I gotta a good deal on". Tossed and never looked back.

I should also say regarding PMC that this was not store bought so who's to say what exactly it really was. Box said PMC as well as Headstamp. That's all I can say. Got it from a friend years ago. Other experience is word of mouth. So I guess my "well known" statement is based on limited experience and heresay. Stupid me. I choose not to use it.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: shoulder cracking

If I could say something negative about my PMC, I wouldn't hesitate. It's top quality. What I found several years ago was that I could not get unprimed PMC brass any longer, only loaded ammo, which I had no use for so I quit buying it. Anyway, different stuff, thanks. BB

 

[psubond]

Re: shoulder cracking

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay, now what, exactly is PMP brass? I have some 270W and 22-250 PMC brass, (believe it's made in South Korea), and it's very good quality. Same place?
BB

edit: Not that I know anything about remedies for weak primer metal, but whoever thought of this solution at Remington should have his ass kicked. </div></div>

doesn't make sense to me either but i don't know shit about metallurgy so I'm not going to question their engineers.

 

[Mordamer]

Re: shoulder cracking

Every Remington 700 I have shot that was built in the last 3 years has cratered primers quite a bit no matter how low the pressure in the chamber was. I always thought that is was just crappy sizing of the firing pin hole, but now I'm surprised to find out it is intentional.

 

[psubond]

Re: shoulder cracking

update: it was definitely the crap ammo the winchester super x came out of the chamber looking like a million bucks. oh so pretty and no cracks, even the primers didn't seem to crater quite as much so i'm guessing maybe the pmp stuff was a little hotter as well or the winchester rounds had harder primers. now that i have a box of empty brass time to start reloading. have another 100 otw should be here tomorrow.

 

[1J04]

Re: shoulder cracking

Right On !!! Thanks for the update. Best case scenario materialized !!! For my dollar Winchester is the deal. Thanks again for posting.