Favorite military match rifles

[Helmet]

My dad started to shoot the military matches and I was kicking around the idea of getting a rifle I could use. I already have a modern rifle that's eating up my resources so I'm curious as to which rifles are good shooters and how much I would need to spend.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

Depends on what type of Military Matches.

Are you talking about CMP Vintage GSM Games? if so then the special grade M1s from the CMP would be your best bet.

A Springfield 1903a3 is right up there, a good one will shoot as well if not better then a M1. But those, in any diecent shap are getting as rare as hen's teeth.

If you're talking service rifle High Power then the AR. White Oak is the most common that you'll find in the winner's circle but there are others.

 

[Joop]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

+1 to everything Kraig said. I would also add the possibility of the M14/M1A platform, as well. When you get into vintage foreign rifles, the Swiss K31, Swede M96 and Finn M39 are probably at the top of that heap, but you could run pretty much any foreign vintage rifle that tickles your fancy. I've shot everything in CMP matches from the Japanese Arisaka Type 99, French MAS 36, to my Springfield Loaded M1A.

As you can see, there's plenty to choose from. You just need to pick what direction you want to go.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

ArmchairElite,

Best accuracy for the buck is the Swiss K-31 (still, maybe not for long). But, are you then limited to competitions that have a foreign rifle class? A decent 1903 shooter, (whatever version you can find) can still run under $500 and you can re-barrel them. 1917's are great rifles too for usually less. Although, I think the chances of having to re-barrel are more likely to get a decent shooter.

Joop,

Is there a match load for the French MAS or is it all the 140 gr.?

 

[Joop]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Joop,

Is there a match load for the French MAS or is it all the 140 gr.? </div></div>
I don't know of any commercial "match" ammo in 7.5x54. I've had pretty good success with Hornady 150 FMJ as well as their 168 BTHP over Varget and both 4895 powders.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Joop,

Is there a match load for the French MAS or is it all the 140 gr.? </div></div>
I don't know of any commercial "match" ammo in 7.5x54. I've had pretty good success with Hornady 150 FMJ as well as their 168 BTHP over Varget and both 4895 powders.</div></div>

Thanks. I was interested in the MAS rifles for a while, always had some other 'project' going on though. Got way too much stuff now to think about getting one.

 

[Joop]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Joop,

Is there a match load for the French MAS or is it all the 140 gr.? </div></div>
I don't know of any commercial "match" ammo in 7.5x54. I've had pretty good success with Hornady 150 FMJ as well as their 168 BTHP over Varget and both 4895 powders.</div></div>

Thanks. I was interested in the MAS rifles for a while, always had some other 'project' going on though. Got way too much stuff now to think about getting one. </div></div>
I've always like the MAS 36. A lot of people scoff at the angle of the bolt handle and the fact that they don't have a safety, but I've found them to be a pretty fast action, once you get used to it and the ergonomics just work well for me, personally. My only real complaint is that the front sight post is rather thick and geared more towards combat use, rather than target shooting.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

If we are searching for the most accurate Vintage military rifles one needs to look at the CMP Games results.

The over all scores for the Springfield are higher then the overall scores for the Vintage Military Matches, which includes forgien military rifles and the M1917.

That's why the Springfield was given its own catagory. The only thing matching the Springfield is the Garand.

 

[downhill]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

If you can I would go with the 1903A3 with the "scant"stock. It will out shoot the M1 anyday! The only real drawback of the 03A3 is the recoil being a bit more noticeable than the M1. Ammo is readily available. The K31 is a great shooter but I would be concerned with the ability to locate the 7.5 rounds on a regular basis.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: downhill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you can I would go with the 1903A3 with the "scant"stock. It will out shoot the M1 anyday! The only real drawback of the 03A3 is the recoil being a bit more noticeable than the M1. Ammo is readily available. The K31 is a great shooter but I would be concerned with the ability to locate the 7.5 rounds on a regular basis.</div></div>

Plenty of very accurate reloading components. However, 'as-issued' that's not gonna work.

Kraig,

I'm of the opinion the accuracy of the 1903 (any form thereof) is not as accurate as all that, simply that people have trained on them for years. As a counter-arguement, I'll offer Olympic rifle shooting and world class 300m shooting. It ain't an American rifle, and it ain't American's owning those records. It's more truthfully that those people have trained longer with those systems in those contests. Given time, I'm sure each could aspire to better accuracy.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm of the opinion the accuracy of the 1903 (any form thereof) is not as accurate as all that, simply that people have trained on them for years.</div></div>

Not sure I agree with that. Not many old shooters around that trained on the Springfield, a lot more that trained on the Garand.

Evne when you compair the CMP's 3 gun agg. Garand, Springfield, and Vintage Rifle Scores, the Springfield holds its own.

I've shot a heck of a lot more Garands then I did the Springfild. but I still find the Springfield shoots better for me.

I was basing my orginal post on the scores posted by the CMP over the years.

 

[Oxcart13]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

Agree with Kraig. I've not come across anyone that old that has trained on a Springfield. Take Dennis DeMille and his 2011 Springfield score of 297-8X. Dennis has never trained on a Springfield, he's just a helluva shooter, who picked up an accurate rifle and shot a record score with it. That a testament to the rifle.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oxcart13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Agree with Kraig. I've not come across anyone that old that has trained on a Springfield. Take Dennis DeMille and his 2011 Springfield score of 297-8X. Dennis has never trained on a Springfield, he's just a helluva shooter, who picked up an accurate rifle and shot a record score with it. That a testament to the rifle.

</div></div>
That is a testament to the rifle! When a great shooter, flush with good marksmanship habits/processes/knowledge gets behind a rifle and lays down a record like that, it say's a lot about how the rifle shoots.

So, to take it one step further, what exactly is it about a 1903 that does this? I've shot them well, but never that good, I've shot 1917's (original) better, (keep in mind I'm no Kraig or Dennis Demille). I've shot my K-31's even better than that(my own range shooting, not match score). What exactly is it with the 1903 that gets the star's all aligned when shooting these things?

 

[Helmet]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Depends on what type of Military Matches.

Are you talking about CMP Vintage GSM Games? if so then the special grade M1s from the CMP would be your best bet.

A Springfield 1903a3 is right up there, a good one will shoot as well if not better then a M1. But those, in any diecent shap are getting as rare as hen's teeth.

If you're talking service rifle High Power then the AR. White Oak is the most common that you'll find in the winner's circle but there are others. </div></div>I'm new at this, but it must be vintage because people are using the K-31, 1903, M1 etc...

 

[Helmet]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks. I was interested in the MAS rifles for a while, always had some other 'project' going on though. Got way too much stuff now to think about getting one. </div></div>
I've always like the MAS 36. A lot of people scoff at the angle of the bolt handle and the fact that they don't have a safety, but I've found them to be a pretty fast action, once you get used to it and the ergonomics just work well for me, personally. My only real complaint is that the front sight post is rather thick and geared more towards combat use, rather than target shooting. </div></div>The MAS 36 sounds interesting. I didn't know about it.

 

[Helmet]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

Any thoughts on a 7x57 Mauser?

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmchairElite</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any thoughts on a 7x57 Mauser?</div></div>
It's a pretty good cartridge. There is no 'as issued' ammunition left out there in decent quantities, so reloading is a must. That said you can stick some very high BC bullets in them with the right twist. Most 7mm's today have the right twist. Quite a number of them from the 50's-80's (non-milsurp) did not. The case taper prevents pushing this round very hard. So, in reality, you can actually get better ballistics from the slightly smaller case of the 7mm-08.
As far as old Mil-surps go, even with a decent barrel you won't find the basic Mauser sights to be as pinpoint accurate as you may need.

 

[Joop]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmchairElite</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The MAS 36 sounds interesting. I didn't know about it. </div></div>
There are certainly better match/target rifles out there, but it's a unique design that usually doesn't get the credit it deserves. Most people bash them just because they're French (those people usually have zero experience with them and like to use the usual, stupid cliches about them).

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

One thing we need to understand about vintage rifle shooting, is the X-10 ring is 3.5 MOA. Just about any good service rifle will do that.

So as mentioned, it really boils down to the shooter.

 

[wilecoyote]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

with all my greatest respect,let me add that we must remember too that those rifles are engineered thinking to the average eyesight of 18 yrs.boys...(at 55,not so much lol,when I try)

 

[Oxcart13]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> So, to take it one step further, what exactly is it about a 1903 that does this? I've shot them well, but never that good, I've shot 1917's (original) better, (keep in mind I'm no Kraig or Dennis Demille). I've shot my K-31's even better than that(my own range shooting, not match score). What exactly is it with the 1903 that gets the star's all aligned when shooting these things? </div></div>

Solid bolt action, good barrels, reasonably accurate ball ammo, and the triggers can be quite good. The big advantage with the 03A3 is the sight radius. Just my opinion. Mark

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

I really like my M1917. I think in slow fire I can shoot it as well ad my M1903a3, UNLESS the wind is blowing. You can't change windage on the M1917 like the 'A3.

Even with the corse 4 MOA clicks.

When it comes to rapid fire, its a different matter. The 1917 isn't near as smooth, plus you have the cocking on closing with the 1917.

Off hand the 'A3 is more balanced for me.

It is legal per CMP rules to add what they call the USMC front sight blade on the Model 1903s, its .07 compared to the .054 Springfield sight. That helps for old eyes and someone like me who is use to the thicker sights of the Garand and M14.

Bought one but lost it before I could get it one. When I find it, its going on my SC M1903a3.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I really like my M1917. I think in slow fire I can shoot it as well ad my M1903a3, UNLESS the wind is blowing. You can't change windage on the M1917 like the 'A3.

Even with the corse 4 MOA clicks.

When it comes to rapid fire, its a different matter. The 1917 isn't near as smooth, plus you have the cocking on closing with the 1917.

Off hand the 'A3 is more balanced for me.

It is legal per CMP rules to add what they call the USMC front sight blade on the Model 1903s, its .07 compared to the .054 Springfield sight. That helps for old eyes and someone like me who is use to the thicker sights of the Garand and M14.

Bought one but lost it before I could get it one. When I find it, its going on my SC M1903a3.</div></div>

Funny how back in the day I liked the thinner sights ...now I need the thicker sights.

 

[Helmet]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmchairElite</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any thoughts on a 7x57 Mauser?</div></div>
It's a pretty good cartridge. There is no 'as issued' ammunition left out there in decent quantities, so reloading is a must. That said you can stick some very high BC bullets in them with the right twist. Most 7mm's today have the right twist. Quite a number of them from the 50's-80's (non-milsurp) did not. The case taper prevents pushing this round very hard. So, in reality, you can actually get better ballistics from the slightly smaller case of the 7mm-08.
As far as old Mil-surps go, even with a decent barrel you won't find the basic Mauser sights to be as pinpoint accurate as you may need. </div></div>My current rifle is a 7mm-08 and I have only shot reloads through it so I thought it might make it easier since I'm already reloading 7mm. It does look like the 7x57 doesn't have the number of brass makers as 6.5x55. I guess the 7mm-08 is making it irrelevant.

 

[2clicks]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

Get a 1903A3 IMHO it's the shit. These rifles just seem to fit. Learn to breathe while cycling the bolt in the rapid fire and you'll be well on your way. Every once in a while I think about selling one of mine, but I can't do it. When I pick one up the just "feel" right...

 

[Oxcart13]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

Just finished a highpower match. On my target was aguy who shot a 03A3, coincidentally. New shooter, but put all but one shot in the black at 600. Shot the spotter two times in a row. Too bad it was in the 9 ring. He will lean. Impresses with that rifle.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

My choice has always been the Garand. I've owned that, an M1A (Stainless Loaded), and an AR-15 (MT6700 Colt Match Target); and these days my Service rifle is the Garand. Sold the other two, recently acquired a Stag Model 6 SuperVvarminter for F T/R.

The Colt Match target never performed to expectations, and the (walnut stocked) M1A tended to get finicky about ammo and weather. The Stag is a great shooter, but it's not intended for service rifle shooting and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't qualify anyway.

The Garand is bedded, wears non-issue match sights. and had a buttplate extension, so it qualifies as a Match Rifle, and not as a Service rifle. It shoots well enough that with a very basic load of 50.0gr IMR-4064 and the HDY 150gr FMJBT that the HP target is more of a challenge to my eyesight than to the rifle's capability.

I have a Mosin-Nagant 91/30, and it's very early days yet. One outing at 100yd with spamcan light ball has convinced me that A) it shoots a lot better than I had expected (off a rest), and that B) the front sight needs to be drifted to move the POI about 1 MOA left. I have some PRVI 150gr boxer primed hunting ammo and will use the brass to see what benfits can be derived from load development.

In general, the rifle appears to have a very basic elegance, possesses a no-nonsense ruggedness, and has been preserved in excellent condition. It's growing on me so much, I'm considering getting another two and challenging my Grandkids to our own little private service rifle comps. At $115 a pop, it's beginning to be a real temptation, and could possibly turn out to be more fun than a barrel of shaved monkeys.

Greg

 

[samnev]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

I had been match shooting for over 40 years. I was lucky enough to but a National Match 1926 dated 1903 with an O'Hare micrometer sight adjuster. Won quite a few matches with it. In the early 80's I bought a Devine Texas National Match M1A. and started using it. Not quite as accurate as the 03 but still good enough to win some matches. Before I bought the NM 03 I was using a pristine 1896 Swedish Mauser which IMO is the most accurate milsurp rifle. Shoots much better than any of my K31's.
A few pictures of The NM 1903, now retired.

Star Gauge Barrel Marking

Polished Rails

Air Gauge Barrel Marking

Serial Number Electo Penciled on Polished Bolt

Heavily Checkered Butt Plate

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

Santo - very nice NM. Thanks for sharing!

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

Here is something interesting. From Captain Edward C Crossman's Book of the Springfield.

In testing match loads for the 1903 the army tested some different bullts to see which would be the most accurate in the 1903 Springfield Match Rifle.

The groups were all fired at 200 yards, using the same point of aim. The scale is in inches with a verticle spred of 6 inches.

Kind of makes me want to try some 110 grn bullets in my 1903a3 for Vintage rifle shooting.

 

[samnev]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Santo - very nice NM. Thanks for sharing! </div></div>
Thanks for the compliment on the 03 NM. You don't see one very often so I thought I'd share. By the way it has a mirror bore.

 

[Magdalene123]

Re: Favorite military match rifles

My favorite is Jay Brown, who scored 429 – 2X with Mosin-Nagant 91/30.