Ok, here's a loaded question that's probably been hashed out but for $5K, should I buy a GAP , Surgeon or Mcmillan TAC in 308. They all run about the same. The Surgeon and Mcmillan are available now while the GAP will require waiting. What's your preference and why?
- Thread starter snipe10
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Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
Honestly, if there is a Surgeon you want right now available.. Buy that one... The waiting is the hardest part, Surgeon are amazing rifles and I wouldnt hesitate in the least to have one. You could be shooting it next week while people like me are still months away from our builds so I would go with Surgeon and be smiling for those months you get to shoot it.
Honestly, if there is a Surgeon you want right now available.. Buy that one... The waiting is the hardest part, Surgeon are amazing rifles and I wouldnt hesitate in the least to have one. You could be shooting it next week while people like me are still months away from our builds so I would go with Surgeon and be smiling for those months you get to shoot it.
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
AI AE and a 6.5 CM or .260 barrel.
AI AE and a 6.5 CM or .260 barrel.
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
GAP uses a Surgeon action on their top rifle. They both make EXCELLENT rifles. If an in stock Surgeon is to your liking call them at 8am tomorrow.
GAP uses a Surgeon action on their top rifle. They both make EXCELLENT rifles. If an in stock Surgeon is to your liking call them at 8am tomorrow.
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
With $5k to spend on a new rifle, a .308 from BlackOps would be at the top of my list, and well worth the wait.
Take a look at some of Mike's rifles and you'll quickly see the attention to detail.
Good luck on your quest.
With $5k to spend on a new rifle, a .308 from BlackOps would be at the top of my list, and well worth the wait.
Take a look at some of Mike's rifles and you'll quickly see the attention to detail.
Good luck on your quest.
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
I own a surgeon and I "am biased." But all that you mentioned are great rifles.
I own a surgeon and I "am biased." But all that you mentioned are great rifles.
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have you looked in the rifles for sale section? Lots of excellent rifles barely used and will save you over a grand. </div></div>
That's good advice right there.
If you have the $$ to buy a finished rifle right now, buy one from a member in the rifles for sale section.
If you don't see exactly what you want right now, just wait a week or two and it'll show up.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have you looked in the rifles for sale section? Lots of excellent rifles barely used and will save you over a grand. </div></div>
That's good advice right there.
If you have the $$ to buy a finished rifle right now, buy one from a member in the rifles for sale section.
If you don't see exactly what you want right now, just wait a week or two and it'll show up.
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
I cant say enough good things about Surgeon. I lost my mind for about a week and ended up with a Surgeon Scalpel for my first long range rifle and now I dont want to shoot anything else. I have right at 900 rounds through it and some how managed to put 3 shots on a 12" target at 800 yards in just under a inch today.
I cant say enough good things about Surgeon. I lost my mind for about a week and ended up with a Surgeon Scalpel for my first long range rifle and now I dont want to shoot anything else. I have right at 900 rounds through it and some how managed to put 3 shots on a 12" target at 800 yards in just under a inch today.
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
You asked for a specific recommendation between the three brands you mentioned. Apologies for going outside of the three, but have you looked at TacOps? Think it would be within your budget and they make a very fine rifle. If you haven't looked at them, I'd do some searches on the hide, and some research. I'd definitely have them in my consideration set. They will have a wait, but I think its worth it. When I get a .308, that and a GAP are the two I will be considering.
You asked for a specific recommendation between the three brands you mentioned. Apologies for going outside of the three, but have you looked at TacOps? Think it would be within your budget and they make a very fine rifle. If you haven't looked at them, I'd do some searches on the hide, and some research. I'd definitely have them in my consideration set. They will have a wait, but I think its worth it. When I get a .308, that and a GAP are the two I will be considering.
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
The McMillan TAC 308 was my choice. Fabulous choice, couldn't be more proud, etc. But, my 6.5 CM with a Surgeon action is on order with GAP.
Now your really confused.
The McMillan TAC 308 was my choice. Fabulous choice, couldn't be more proud, etc. But, my 6.5 CM with a Surgeon action is on order with GAP.
Now your really confused.
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
Can't beat surgeon. I had a gap and a surgeon. I sold my gap. After interacting with both companies multiple times I will say that I think surgeon has better customer service and the best action on the market. Both rifles are good, but when you call surgeon, at least half the time Wade answers the phone and he is the man when it ones to precision shooting, if he cant take the call he ALWAYS calls back. At gap, I had to leave a message multiple times, and the guy that answered the phone was not very knowledgeable. There is always a wait with GAP on anything. Not trying to hate on GAP, just stating my multiple experiences over the past 3 years.
Can't beat surgeon. I had a gap and a surgeon. I sold my gap. After interacting with both companies multiple times I will say that I think surgeon has better customer service and the best action on the market. Both rifles are good, but when you call surgeon, at least half the time Wade answers the phone and he is the man when it ones to precision shooting, if he cant take the call he ALWAYS calls back. At gap, I had to leave a message multiple times, and the guy that answered the phone was not very knowledgeable. There is always a wait with GAP on anything. Not trying to hate on GAP, just stating my multiple experiences over the past 3 years.
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JSTARSZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It doesn't matter because if you stay with the tactical game long enough you will own all three or have had all three at some time. I have three GAP's and two Blackops and love them all. </div></div>
AIAX
Surgeon (all sizes)
Pierce
GAP
TRG
OOOOO yeah.....stay around long enough and you will get to try them all
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JSTARSZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It doesn't matter because if you stay with the tactical game long enough you will own all three or have had all three at some time. I have three GAP's and two Blackops and love them all. </div></div>
AIAX
Surgeon (all sizes)
Pierce
GAP
TRG
OOOOO yeah.....stay around long enough and you will get to try them all
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
If Surgeon's available, get it! I own Surgeon and GAP. Both rifles are amazing. The guys at Surgeon will back up thier products, and in my experience take care of business. Best part....No wait!
If Surgeon's available, get it! I own Surgeon and GAP. Both rifles are amazing. The guys at Surgeon will back up thier products, and in my experience take care of business. Best part....No wait!
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have you looked in the rifles for sale section? Lots of excellent rifles barely used and will save you over a grand. </div></div>
I would go this route or try gunbroker as well, you will find GAP and Surgeon rifles on there as well
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have you looked in the rifles for sale section? Lots of excellent rifles barely used and will save you over a grand. </div></div>
I would go this route or try gunbroker as well, you will find GAP and Surgeon rifles on there as well
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
Surgeon with out a doubt. Customer Service, build quality and it will certainly be a tack driver
Surgeon with out a doubt. Customer Service, build quality and it will certainly be a tack driver
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
If I was going to wait I'd also consider a KMW build on a Sentinel stock. I sorta went that route...got the stock from Terry and the rest of the build was done by Southern Precision (bugholes). No offense to SP 'cause Greg did fantastic work, but the stock is what I love best about it.
If I was going to wait I'd also consider a KMW build on a Sentinel stock. I sorta went that route...got the stock from Terry and the rest of the build was done by Southern Precision (bugholes). No offense to SP 'cause Greg did fantastic work, but the stock is what I love best about it.
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
If cost was no object, and with your budget it is not, I would buy a Gradous. I have been absolutely amazed at some of the groups shot by his rifles. You could win a benchrest competition with one of his rifles and wouldn't you look funny doing it to.
If cost was no object, and with your budget it is not, I would buy a Gradous. I have been absolutely amazed at some of the groups shot by his rifles. You could win a benchrest competition with one of his rifles and wouldn't you look funny doing it to.
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...684#Post3552684
I would call Mike!
No wait if he still has one.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...684#Post3552684
I would call Mike!
No wait if he still has one.
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJimFish</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If cost was no object, and with your budget it is not, I would buy a Gradous. I have been absolutely amazed at some of the groups shot by his rifles. You could win a benchrest competition with one of his rifles and wouldn't you look funny doing it to. </div></div>
+10000
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJimFish</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If cost was no object, and with your budget it is not, I would buy a Gradous. I have been absolutely amazed at some of the groups shot by his rifles. You could win a benchrest competition with one of his rifles and wouldn't you look funny doing it to. </div></div>
+10000
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJimFish</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If cost was no object, and with your budget it is not, I would buy a Gradous. I have been absolutely amazed at some of the groups shot by his rifles. You could win a benchrest competition with one of his rifles and wouldn't you look funny doing it to.</div></div>
Look no further than Robert. I have a wall of one hole targets framed from the rifle he built me. Being an engineer I am baffeled and amazed how well he can make a rifle shoot.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJimFish</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If cost was no object, and with your budget it is not, I would buy a Gradous. I have been absolutely amazed at some of the groups shot by his rifles. You could win a benchrest competition with one of his rifles and wouldn't you look funny doing it to.</div></div>
Look no further than Robert. I have a wall of one hole targets framed from the rifle he built me. Being an engineer I am baffeled and amazed how well he can make a rifle shoot.
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
Guys at Surgeon are great. Not to mention the bug holes the put out. Smooth as butter.
Guys at Surgeon are great. Not to mention the bug holes the put out. Smooth as butter.
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: snipe10</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, here's a loaded question that's probably been hashed out but for $5K, should I buy a GAP , Surgeon or Mcmillan TAC in 308. They all run about the same. The Surgeon and Mcmillan are available now while the GAP will require waiting. What's your preference and why? </div></div>
Hi snipe10,
Me, I'd go for a Tactical Operations (Tac Ops) .308. I know of no other maker who can print groups like Mike's.
But this is at least somewhat a matter of personal needs/tastes. What specifically are you looking for? You just wanna go balls out on accuracy, or are you looking for very accurate (<span style="text-decoration: underline"><</span>0.5) <span style="text-decoration: underline">but also</span> some other things? What I mean is, given that $5k is no small stack of cash, surely you're going to want a rifle that gives you exactly what you're looking for, yeah? For example, if I wanted a rifle on an AI chassis (which I still say is the most beautiful and comfortable chassis out there), I'd not go with Tac Ops; I'd probably go with Gradous or, since it's already on your list, GAP. Tac Ops has an astonishing accuracy guarantee, but not on the AI chassis. For that, Gradous and GAP seem like the real go-to guys. Also, the wait time is shorter from GAP and Gradous than from Tac Ops, so if I didn't like waiting around ~1 year, I'd go with either of them. If I wanted to buy <span style="text-decoration: underline">right now</span>, then I'd likely get a Surgeon, but only because I've not owned one yet and would be dying to try it out, whereas I already know and love the McMillans.
You see what I mean? Who your best builder will be will depend at least in part on what you're looking for and which criteria you rate highest. In the interest of full disclosure, I should point out that I myself did go ahead and order a Delta 51 from Tac Ops (ETA sometime in or after January), and did so specifically because I wanted to go completely balls out on accuracy and don't mind waiting. As much as I'll miss the AI stock, I in no way regret my decision. Mike's guns are consistently just too accurate for me to have chosen otherwise.
Yours,
David
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: snipe10</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, here's a loaded question that's probably been hashed out but for $5K, should I buy a GAP , Surgeon or Mcmillan TAC in 308. They all run about the same. The Surgeon and Mcmillan are available now while the GAP will require waiting. What's your preference and why? </div></div>
Hi snipe10,
Me, I'd go for a Tactical Operations (Tac Ops) .308. I know of no other maker who can print groups like Mike's.
But this is at least somewhat a matter of personal needs/tastes. What specifically are you looking for? You just wanna go balls out on accuracy, or are you looking for very accurate (<span style="text-decoration: underline"><</span>0.5) <span style="text-decoration: underline">but also</span> some other things? What I mean is, given that $5k is no small stack of cash, surely you're going to want a rifle that gives you exactly what you're looking for, yeah? For example, if I wanted a rifle on an AI chassis (which I still say is the most beautiful and comfortable chassis out there), I'd not go with Tac Ops; I'd probably go with Gradous or, since it's already on your list, GAP. Tac Ops has an astonishing accuracy guarantee, but not on the AI chassis. For that, Gradous and GAP seem like the real go-to guys. Also, the wait time is shorter from GAP and Gradous than from Tac Ops, so if I didn't like waiting around ~1 year, I'd go with either of them. If I wanted to buy <span style="text-decoration: underline">right now</span>, then I'd likely get a Surgeon, but only because I've not owned one yet and would be dying to try it out, whereas I already know and love the McMillans.
You see what I mean? Who your best builder will be will depend at least in part on what you're looking for and which criteria you rate highest. In the interest of full disclosure, I should point out that I myself did go ahead and order a Delta 51 from Tac Ops (ETA sometime in or after January), and did so specifically because I wanted to go completely balls out on accuracy and don't mind waiting. As much as I'll miss the AI stock, I in no way regret my decision. Mike's guns are consistently just too accurate for me to have chosen otherwise.
Yours,
David
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJimFish</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If cost was no object, and with your budget it is not, I would buy a Gradous. I have been absolutely amazed at some of the groups shot by his rifles. You could win a benchrest competition with one of his rifles and wouldn't you look funny doing it to.</div></div>
Look no further than Robert. I have a wall of one hole targets framed from the rifle he built me. Being an engineer I am baffeled and amazed how well he can make a rifle shoot. </div></div>
Step it up a notch and get some skin in it.....take one of his classes......
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJimFish</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If cost was no object, and with your budget it is not, I would buy a Gradous. I have been absolutely amazed at some of the groups shot by his rifles. You could win a benchrest competition with one of his rifles and wouldn't you look funny doing it to.</div></div>
Look no further than Robert. I have a wall of one hole targets framed from the rifle he built me. Being an engineer I am baffeled and amazed how well he can make a rifle shoot. </div></div>
Step it up a notch and get some skin in it.....take one of his classes......
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
Also,, take a look at Short Action Customs.
Mark Gordon builds hammers.
Also,, take a look at Short Action Customs.
Mark Gordon builds hammers.
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
All will shoot lights out so go with the one without the wait. As another poster stated, it's the waiting that kills you. If surgeon has what you want I'd call them asap!
All will shoot lights out so go with the one without the wait. As another poster stated, it's the waiting that kills you. If surgeon has what you want I'd call them asap!
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
When it comes to that price range. It boils down to your preference, get what you want.
But in my opinion, Macmillan is over priced out of your 3 listed opinions...go with GAP or Surgeon.
KMW rifles are awesome as well.
When it comes to that price range. It boils down to your preference, get what you want.
But in my opinion, Macmillan is over priced out of your 3 listed opinions...go with GAP or Surgeon.
KMW rifles are awesome as well.
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
Surgeon- no wait and a damn fine rifle. I have 4 and sold all my gaps because of crappy service.
AIAX is sick as hell too bit they are big money. Its my favorite right now. Feels like I'm shooting a mini Abrams tank.
Surgeon- no wait and a damn fine rifle. I have 4 and sold all my gaps because of crappy service.
AIAX is sick as hell too bit they are big money. Its my favorite right now. Feels like I'm shooting a mini Abrams tank.
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
I either currently own or have owned GAP built rifles, a Surgeon Scalpel and AI AW and AWSM. Surgeon makes great rifles and if you know of one available configured the way you want it, I would recommend you buy it. I certainly am very happy with my Scalpel.
I either currently own or have owned GAP built rifles, a Surgeon Scalpel and AI AW and AWSM. Surgeon makes great rifles and if you know of one available configured the way you want it, I would recommend you buy it. I certainly am very happy with my Scalpel.
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
I wish I'd known more about some of the other great builders. I shoot a McMillan TAC 308 that is absolutely great. I have a GAP hospitaller in 6.5 CM on order but am really disgusted with their PR. I've not bothered them as I'm trying to be patient. Their build sheet was very PLAIN about NO changes once you placed the order and gave them a deposit. They apparently are overwelmed with orders and are trying to build quality rifles. I've shot on the line next to GAP rifles and have been totally impressed.
I wish I'd known more about some of the other great builders. I shoot a McMillan TAC 308 that is absolutely great. I have a GAP hospitaller in 6.5 CM on order but am really disgusted with their PR. I've not bothered them as I'm trying to be patient. Their build sheet was very PLAIN about NO changes once you placed the order and gave them a deposit. They apparently are overwelmed with orders and are trying to build quality rifles. I've shot on the line next to GAP rifles and have been totally impressed.
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: macm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've not bothered them as I'm trying to be patient. Their build sheet was very PLAIN about NO changes once you placed the order and gave them a deposit. They apparently are overwelmed with orders and are trying to build quality rifles.</div></div> I am sure they are pretty busy based on this site and along with all the other press they have received. I can understand their point about changes when it comes to large issues such as stocks and calibers and other items that have to be ordered. If you are talking about the length of the barrel then I am sure that is not a major issue.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: macm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've not bothered them as I'm trying to be patient. Their build sheet was very PLAIN about NO changes once you placed the order and gave them a deposit. They apparently are overwelmed with orders and are trying to build quality rifles.</div></div> I am sure they are pretty busy based on this site and along with all the other press they have received. I can understand their point about changes when it comes to large issues such as stocks and calibers and other items that have to be ordered. If you are talking about the length of the barrel then I am sure that is not a major issue.
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
I was in the same boat 2 months ago. I bought a black-ops barreled action from the SH classifieds & couldn't be happier. Dropped the action into an AICS 2.0( with a little filing). Put on a S&B 3-20 with Badger rings. Thursday shot a 3 shot group from 300yds that measured .52 inches with 175g FGMM on a bench with bipod. . The fit and finish on Mikes rifles are outstanding.
I was in the same boat 2 months ago. I bought a black-ops barreled action from the SH classifieds & couldn't be happier. Dropped the action into an AICS 2.0( with a little filing). Put on a S&B 3-20 with Badger rings. Thursday shot a 3 shot group from 300yds that measured .52 inches with 175g FGMM on a bench with bipod. . The fit and finish on Mikes rifles are outstanding.
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
Persoanlly if it were me i would have Jon Beanland, or WNRoscoe of LA Precision build the rifle exactly how you want it. For that matter there are several very good rifle smiths here on the site. Just because some of these fellas dont have a name like GAP or Surgeon doesnt mean they cant build accruate rifles. To be quite honest, there isnt any majic in building a good accurate rifle if you use good products. The beading is the main thing in my mind, followed by a good chamber job. Better yet, save some money and buy a nice used rifle. lots of them around. Lee
Persoanlly if it were me i would have Jon Beanland, or WNRoscoe of LA Precision build the rifle exactly how you want it. For that matter there are several very good rifle smiths here on the site. Just because some of these fellas dont have a name like GAP or Surgeon doesnt mean they cant build accruate rifles. To be quite honest, there isnt any majic in building a good accurate rifle if you use good products. The beading is the main thing in my mind, followed by a good chamber job. Better yet, save some money and buy a nice used rifle. lots of them around. Lee
Re: GAP, SURGEON, or MCMILLAN TAC
I second Jon Beanland's builds. My first all out tactical rifle was a beanland in 260. For about $3600 I got all the bells and whisels and a top notch accurate rifle. His customer service is second to none.
I second Jon Beanland's builds. My first all out tactical rifle was a beanland in 260. For about $3600 I got all the bells and whisels and a top notch accurate rifle. His customer service is second to none.
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