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Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
I'm runnung Delta III on a Nomad and worked out fine. The higher versions would only help if you wanted to cable into a range finder or want to calculate loop holes?
I'm runnung Delta III on a Nomad and worked out fine. The higher versions would only help if you wanted to cable into a range finder or want to calculate loop holes?
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
The main engine of III, IV and V is the same, the higher revs just have additional features. We'll go over everything in ver V, so you'll see what it has to offer and decide if the upgrade is worth it to you. Otherwise, if version III works for you, it's perfectly fine for class.
The main engine of III, IV and V is the same, the higher revs just have additional features. We'll go over everything in ver V, so you'll see what it has to offer and decide if the upgrade is worth it to you. Otherwise, if version III works for you, it's perfectly fine for class.
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
tag
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Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would think you are fine, the first XLR Class I took had people in it that were probably well below that in experience and they learned a lot.
Cory can comment but I would say sign up, </div></div>Thank you Frank. You going to be there in October?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would think you are fine, the first XLR Class I took had people in it that were probably well below that in experience and they learned a lot.
Cory can comment but I would say sign up, </div></div>Thank you Frank. You going to be there in October?
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
So what is the general consensus for those in the know.
Will a 300 WM rem 700 5R with 208 AMAX 24 inch barrel , BE ENOUGH GUN?
Night force 5.5-22X56. Mil mil
I'm not talking back up, I'm talking for the full class.
Thinking about this class. I have only been able to get to 1200 yards in the desert.
So what is the general consensus for those in the know.
Will a 300 WM rem 700 5R with 208 AMAX 24 inch barrel , BE ENOUGH GUN?
Night force 5.5-22X56. Mil mil
I'm not talking back up, I'm talking for the full class.
Thinking about this class. I have only been able to get to 1200 yards in the desert.
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
There will be some targets that are pretty much out of range for a .300WM. Not that that is a problem, you'll learn to work right up to the limits of the gun, you'll learn the software and be totally comfortable with the calibration process. If/when you get something else you can go right to work, you'll know all you need to know. I've had a couple people take the class with a .300, they did not leave dissapointed.
There will be some targets that are pretty much out of range for a .300WM. Not that that is a problem, you'll learn to work right up to the limits of the gun, you'll learn the software and be totally comfortable with the calibration process. If/when you get something else you can go right to work, you'll know all you need to know. I've had a couple people take the class with a .300, they did not leave dissapointed.
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
I took the class with a .300WM: JLK 210 VLD LBTs (.680BC) at 2950fps. It was the lightest gun on the line, but it kept-up with the .338s to 1500-plus.
Max supersonic range was 2029 yards at 5000 feet of elevation.
I used a NF 5.5-22x50, and got hits with 18.9 Mils dialed at 1975 yards.
There's nothing wrong with running a .300WM for the class. It will teach you to use the rifle to the edge of its performance envelope, which is precisely the benefit of taking the class in the first place.
I took the class with a .300WM: JLK 210 VLD LBTs (.680BC) at 2950fps. It was the lightest gun on the line, but it kept-up with the .338s to 1500-plus.
Max supersonic range was 2029 yards at 5000 feet of elevation.
I used a NF 5.5-22x50, and got hits with 18.9 Mils dialed at 1975 yards.
There's nothing wrong with running a .300WM for the class. It will teach you to use the rifle to the edge of its performance envelope, which is precisely the benefit of taking the class in the first place.
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
this will probably be my next training expenditure. I have shot alot out to 1800 yards with varying platforms and degrees of success. But I am sure I could benefit from a fresh and competent PoV on the problem. The price seems reasonable too.
this will probably be my next training expenditure. I have shot alot out to 1800 yards with varying platforms and degrees of success. But I am sure I could benefit from a fresh and competent PoV on the problem. The price seems reasonable too.
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
HORUS/KESTREL DEVICE
Would a Horus/Kestrel device (weather station W/ Horus ATrag ballistic software) be permitted in lieu of a ballistic PDA for this course?
I assume Horus reticles are OK to use.
Oh, yeah, BTW, my rifle is an HS Precision/Rem. 700 in .300 Win Mag as well. (Berger 230gr. Tactical bullets) so I guess I'd be at the "edge" of its capacities as well.
HORUS/KESTREL DEVICE
Would a Horus/Kestrel device (weather station W/ Horus ATrag ballistic software) be permitted in lieu of a ballistic PDA for this course?
I assume Horus reticles are OK to use.
Oh, yeah, BTW, my rifle is an HS Precision/Rem. 700 in .300 Win Mag as well. (Berger 230gr. Tactical bullets) so I guess I'd be at the "edge" of its capacities as well.
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
Permitted? Sure, the class is less about specific equipment than general techniques and methods. If that's what you use, then bring it. You'll get to see everythig else in action and decide if it worth it to change or stay with what you've got.
Permitted? Sure, the class is less about specific equipment than general techniques and methods. If that's what you use, then bring it. You'll get to see everythig else in action and decide if it worth it to change or stay with what you've got.
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Permitted?...You'll get to see everything else in action and decide if it worth it to change or stay with what you've got. </div></div>Subtle.
Litehiker, that might have been intended as a hint.
Get a PDA. And if you use ATRAG, make sure it's the correct version with the features you need and that you know how to work it. I find ATRAG to be confusing when compared to some other programs, but maybe that's just a result of the user interface.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Permitted?...You'll get to see everything else in action and decide if it worth it to change or stay with what you've got. </div></div>Subtle.
Litehiker, that might have been intended as a hint.
Get a PDA. And if you use ATRAG, make sure it's the correct version with the features you need and that you know how to work it. I find ATRAG to be confusing when compared to some other programs, but maybe that's just a result of the user interface.
A
Augustus
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Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
Graham, I have the Nomad with Atrag and also have the Kestrel w/Atrag, the Nomad hasn't been used since I got the Kestrel. Once you get the rifle data entered the conditions will automatically input data. It's very simple to use and you can carry it around your neck or in the pocket of your shirt.
Graham, I have the Nomad with Atrag and also have the Kestrel w/Atrag, the Nomad hasn't been used since I got the Kestrel. Once you get the rifle data entered the conditions will automatically input data. It's very simple to use and you can carry it around your neck or in the pocket of your shirt.
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite (dates?)
What are the dates for the Gunsite ELR course?
I have a few ski patrol courses to take around that time for Outdoor Emergency Care instructor and Mountain Travel and Rescue II.
What are the dates for the Gunsite ELR course?
I have a few ski patrol courses to take around that time for Outdoor Emergency Care instructor and Mountain Travel and Rescue II.
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
^^^ <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's set for October 15-18, FFS class on Sunday the 14th, $1180</div></div>
^^^ <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's set for October 15-18, FFS class on Sunday the 14th, $1180</div></div>
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
Then you should give the nomad to me
You will all have more fun at this course than you could ever imagine !
See you all there !
Greg
Then you should give the nomad to me
You will all have more fun at this course than you could ever imagine !
See you all there !
Greg
A
Augustus
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Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
Another neat thing about the Kestrel, it fits perfectly in the top cover of the pouch that came with the TERRIPIN. Everything I need to range and get solutions is in one little bag.
Another neat thing about the Kestrel, it fits perfectly in the top cover of the pouch that came with the TERRIPIN. Everything I need to range and get solutions is in one little bag.
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
The Kestrel unit is OK, if all you want is a simple target solution. The singular advantage is small size, being integrated into the weather meter you need anyway. It's quite limited in functionality, and the user interface leaves much to be desired, due to having nothing but a few up/down left/right and enter buttons. It's certainly suitable for what I would call casual use, like iPhone apps. I never much liked ATrag personally, and I like the Kestrel implemention even less. That does not mean it does not work, it's just not something I'd recommend to anyone.
The Kestrel unit is OK, if all you want is a simple target solution. The singular advantage is small size, being integrated into the weather meter you need anyway. It's quite limited in functionality, and the user interface leaves much to be desired, due to having nothing but a few up/down left/right and enter buttons. It's certainly suitable for what I would call casual use, like iPhone apps. I never much liked ATrag personally, and I like the Kestrel implemention even less. That does not mean it does not work, it's just not something I'd recommend to anyone.
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
Man wish I could be there.
Man wish I could be there.
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
Last Call!!! There are still 3 slots available for the ELR class starting Oct 15th, with the 14th reserved for a day of training on Field Firing Solutions.
I'm hoping to get a Vectronix Moskito demo unit, plus a deal on Terrapins or PLRF rangefinders for class members. Ashbury Precision is trying to deliver the prototype .375 CT system for a first look as well. We've got the PVS-26 and 27 with IR systems for the night fire already, so we should have a pretty good time!
Last Call!!! There are still 3 slots available for the ELR class starting Oct 15th, with the 14th reserved for a day of training on Field Firing Solutions.
I'm hoping to get a Vectronix Moskito demo unit, plus a deal on Terrapins or PLRF rangefinders for class members. Ashbury Precision is trying to deliver the prototype .375 CT system for a first look as well. We've got the PVS-26 and 27 with IR systems for the night fire already, so we should have a pretty good time!
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
I am gonna be there and I didn't call to reserve, I can Friday.
I am gonna be there and I didn't call to reserve, I can Friday.
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
LL, I already logged you in brother, just show up.
LL, I already logged you in brother, just show up.
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
You got me in there to Cory ? I'll have the 375 again if you need more ammo
greg
You got me in there to Cory ? I'll have the 375 again if you need more ammo
greg
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
Greg, you are registered as well. Still room for 3 though!
Greg, you are registered as well. Still room for 3 though!
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
Been a few years since I've been out but I'm working on it for this year.
Trying to get things in line and will call the office Friday if I can get everything cleared off my schedule.
Been a few years since I've been out but I'm working on it for this year.
Trying to get things in line and will call the office Friday if I can get everything cleared off my schedule.
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
I need to get up there with Sandy F. she says great things about you and the class Cory.
I need to get up there with Sandy F. she says great things about you and the class Cory.
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
Raimus, hope it works out for you, should be great fun.
Dave, Sandy took PR7 with my wife, Paula. Giles was working with them on the UKD's and spawned the nickname 'Team Giggles' after the squeals of delight after each hit. Paula adopted my 700, she calls it 'Remmy'. She's going to sit in on ELR now, no idea what that's going to cost me...
Raimus, hope it works out for you, should be great fun.
Dave, Sandy took PR7 with my wife, Paula. Giles was working with them on the UKD's and spawned the nickname 'Team Giggles' after the squeals of delight after each hit. Paula adopted my 700, she calls it 'Remmy'. She's going to sit in on ELR now, no idea what that's going to cost me...
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
I'm planning on it too. The company is just taking it's sweet time in confirming my vacation for some reason. The filled out form's been on a tab in my browser for two weeks now!
I'm planning on it too. The company is just taking it's sweet time in confirming my vacation for some reason. The filled out form's been on a tab in my browser for two weeks now!
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hypertex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm planning on it too. The company is just taking it's sweet time in confirming my vacation for some reason. The filled out form's been on a tab in my browser for two weeks now! </div></div>
I'm in the same boat. I changed jobs this summer and now don't have enough time on the books to cover me if I want to take time off over the holiday. But I'm trying to swing a deal with my boss.
The spring class was blast and with more people this one will be better.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hypertex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm planning on it too. The company is just taking it's sweet time in confirming my vacation for some reason. The filled out form's been on a tab in my browser for two weeks now! </div></div>
I'm in the same boat. I changed jobs this summer and now don't have enough time on the books to cover me if I want to take time off over the holiday. But I'm trying to swing a deal with my boss.
The spring class was blast and with more people this one will be better.
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
Tell your boss I said it was OK, you deserve the time off, it will make you more productive as well as better looking. Either that, or it at least gets you further away so he does not have to deal with your crap for a little while.
Tell your boss I said it was OK, you deserve the time off, it will make you more productive as well as better looking. Either that, or it at least gets you further away so he does not have to deal with your crap for a little while.
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
<span style="font-style: italic"> Copy & Paste to your Employer</span>
Dear Mr Kotter,
Please excuse Juan from Class this week so he can attend the formal instruction at Gunsite.
Signed,
Epstein's Mother
<span style="font-style: italic"> Copy & Paste to your Employer</span>
Dear Mr Kotter,
Please excuse Juan from Class this week so he can attend the formal instruction at Gunsite.
Signed,
Epstein's Mother
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic"> Copy & Paste to your Employer</span>
Dear Mr Kotter,
Please excuse Juan from Class this week so he can attend the formal instruction at Gunsite.
Signed,
Epstein's Mother
</div></div>
Showing your vintage there...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic"> Copy & Paste to your Employer</span>
Dear Mr Kotter,
Please excuse Juan from Class this week so he can attend the formal instruction at Gunsite.
Signed,
Epstein's Mother
</div></div>
Showing your vintage there...
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
Will Gunsite accomodate foreign friendlies?
Will Gunsite accomodate foreign friendlies?
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Got a confirmation email and you took my money back in July, so I should be on the list, yes? </div></div>
you got bumped,,,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Got a confirmation email and you took my money back in July, so I should be on the list, yes? </div></div>
you got bumped,,,
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
BM11, you are in, you were one of the earlier ones to register.
Due to current administration of ITAR rules, we take foreign nationals only with State Department approval. If you contact DoS with your request, they can provide you with an approval letter. BATF regulations also require you purchase a non-resident hunting license to make possesion of a firearm legal, don't ask me why.
BM11, you are in, you were one of the earlier ones to register.
Due to current administration of ITAR rules, we take foreign nationals only with State Department approval. If you contact DoS with your request, they can provide you with an approval letter. BATF regulations also require you purchase a non-resident hunting license to make possesion of a firearm legal, don't ask me why.
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
Got the green light...that note really did the trick! Thanks Frank!
Looks like Juan is in!
Got the green light...that note really did the trick! Thanks Frank!
Looks like Juan is in!
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
Due to current administration of ITAR rules, we take foreign nationals only with State Department approval. If you contact DoS with your request, they can provide you with an approval letter. BATF regulations also require you purchase a non-resident hunting license to make possesion of a firearm legal, don't ask me why. [/quote]
Ok,...can you please PM me an exact address for the relevant office and what I need to tell them? Do I need to book a course first, get a covering letter??? Can I bring my own AIAW or is that considered a military weapon??
I know that as a UK national I have to PAY to enter the US and submit to fingerprinting and retinal scans and financial checks!!
Due to current administration of ITAR rules, we take foreign nationals only with State Department approval. If you contact DoS with your request, they can provide you with an approval letter. BATF regulations also require you purchase a non-resident hunting license to make possesion of a firearm legal, don't ask me why. [/quote]
Ok,...can you please PM me an exact address for the relevant office and what I need to tell them? Do I need to book a course first, get a covering letter??? Can I bring my own AIAW or is that considered a military weapon??
I know that as a UK national I have to PAY to enter the US and submit to fingerprinting and retinal scans and financial checks!!
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
You have to apply to the State Department's Directorate for Defense Trade Controls (DDTC) on a DSP-83.
Gunsite would be the vendor of US training and technology and competition host. If it was a pure sports event I don't know how that would work (the trick being exposure or giving of defense training and technology on the United States Munitions List).
Since it's not a piece of hardware being exported and you're from the UK / a NATO country it may not take too long -- otherwise it could take between three to six weeks.
Sport shooting events (like the Military International Sports Council, World Cup, Camp Perry, and Palma competitions) do not require a hunting license.
You have to apply to the State Department's Directorate for Defense Trade Controls (DDTC) on a DSP-83.
Gunsite would be the vendor of US training and technology and competition host. If it was a pure sports event I don't know how that would work (the trick being exposure or giving of defense training and technology on the United States Munitions List).
Since it's not a piece of hardware being exported and you're from the UK / a NATO country it may not take too long -- otherwise it could take between three to six weeks.
Sport shooting events (like the Military International Sports Council, World Cup, Camp Perry, and Palma competitions) do not require a hunting license.
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
A DSP-83 refers to equipment,..not training.
Exactly where in ITAR is training even mentioned?
DSP-83 requires input from seller and recipient.
6 weeks? Last DSP-83 we did for a Govt Aagency took 6 months, this in the end got the response " we do not wish to see the transfer of this technology"
That was for PVS-7's to a Specialist Law Enforcement Agency,..we ended buying them in Israel "over the counter" without any problems. Go figure. ITAR is an ass.
A DSP-83 refers to equipment,..not training.
Exactly where in ITAR is training even mentioned?
DSP-83 requires input from seller and recipient.
6 weeks? Last DSP-83 we did for a Govt Aagency took 6 months, this in the end got the response " we do not wish to see the transfer of this technology"
That was for PVS-7's to a Specialist Law Enforcement Agency,..we ended buying them in Israel "over the counter" without any problems. Go figure. ITAR is an ass.
Re: ELR Course at Gunsite
There are a number of other forms. A DSP-5 covers exporting technology and technical data -- which may or may not have anything to do with an objective, hard item (i.e., training, even if it is on all foreign-made, imported equipment). http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/DTRADE/documents/dtrade_dsp_5_instructions.pdf
The way the USML is worded, exposing non-marketing data (brochures, catalogs, etc.) to a potential foreign customer may be a violation (i.e., letting him look through a non-exportable Starlight image intensifier or thermal system).
The USML covers articles, <span style="font-style: italic">services,</span> and technical data. Category IX covers training.
http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/documents/official_itar/ITAR_Part_121.pdf
There are a number of other forms. A DSP-5 covers exporting technology and technical data -- which may or may not have anything to do with an objective, hard item (i.e., training, even if it is on all foreign-made, imported equipment). http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/DTRADE/documents/dtrade_dsp_5_instructions.pdf
The way the USML is worded, exposing non-marketing data (brochures, catalogs, etc.) to a potential foreign customer may be a violation (i.e., letting him look through a non-exportable Starlight image intensifier or thermal system).
The USML covers articles, <span style="font-style: italic">services,</span> and technical data. Category IX covers training.
http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/documents/official_itar/ITAR_Part_121.pdf
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