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AR novice...5.56 build question

BoilerUP

BoilerUP

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Jan 16, 2011
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Thinking of replacing a Savage bolt action 223 I have with an AR, and am thinking about a "RECCE-style" carbine build. I'm not into 3-gunning or tacticool, so my sole purpose would be a range toy, hitting paper and steel out to 650yd. I already have a 16" A1 style AR on an EA Co. lower that would be the basis for the project.

The cheap/easy way for me to get where I'm going is to buy a DPMS Oracle upper; a friend has one and it has proven to be reasonably accurate though I know DPMS doesn't necessarily have a stellar reputation. Shoot it for a while, then eventually swap on an extended carbine or rifle length free float rail. I'd likely top with a Burris PEPR mount and a Weaver GS Tactical 3-10x40 mil/mil scope.

The other route I'm thinking about is ordering an upper from Palmetto State. I figure a 16" mid-length medium profile upper with 1:7 barrel and YHM Diamond free-float handguard.

The PSA upper would be $100+ more than the DPMS, plus I'd have to get a charging handle and BCG (though I could probably rob them from my existing A1 upper).

Budget is always a consideration, but I want to get the most for my dollar. Given that, would the Oracle suit my desires or should I get the PSA, or is there another option I'm not considering?

I'm fairly ignorant when it comes to ARs, so take it easy on me...thanks!
grin.gif
 
Re: AR novice...5.56 build question

DPMS Oracles are a huge hunk of shit. I would check out something from Bravo company, or buy a stripped upper, Rainer Select match barrel, and what ever rail system/forend you want.
 
Re: AR novice...5.56 build question

Do yourself a favor and go with a stock colt, lmt, or daniel defense.

Any one of those with a Geisselle SSA trigger and your good to go.
 
Re: AR novice...5.56 build question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YourMotherTrebek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do yourself a favor and go with a stock colt, lmt, or daniel defense.

Any one of those with a Geisselle SSA trigger and your good to go.</div></div>

+1 But you may want to include Larue, BCM, and JP in the running.
 
Re: AR novice...5.56 build question

DPMS LR 6.5, ought to do 650 easy enough; definately don`t think you will make that number with the Oracle in .223 rem..not reliable anyway.
 
Re: AR novice...5.56 build question

I'd love a Noveske, LMT, DD, Larue, JP, etc...but my budget won't allow it.

I know, "buy once cry once", but basically I'm looking for quality kit that won't break the bank - I don't need the Schmidt & Bender of ARs.

What about the Stag 3GH upper? 18" barrel but looks otherwise suitable for my purposes, $700 and comes with BCG and charging handle.

Other thing I'm looking at is the BCM Standard 16" midlength with YHM or VTAC handguard...about $660 with no BCG or charging handle.
 
Re: AR novice...5.56 build question

Do you want a whole new upper, or do you plan to build off of your current one?
 
Re: AR novice...5.56 build question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Boss334OP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YourMotherTrebek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do yourself a favor and go with a stock colt, lmt, or daniel defense.

Any one of those with a Geisselle SSA trigger and your good to go.</div></div>

+1 But you may want to include Larue, BCM, and JP in the running. </div></div>

See now you just introduced such a wide range of costs. We can all go round and round on this topic for days.

Take Larue out of that equation right off the bat unless a ridiculously priced $2200 rifle is what's on the menu.


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=303044957

colt 6920. Less than $1100 and goes through all the checks and inspections you'd want in a quality rifle.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=307220590

lmt can be had for 1500. With the added cost attributed to the rail system.
 
Re: AR novice...5.56 build question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Temp9</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you want a whole new upper, or do you plan to build off of your current one? </div></div>

Whole new upper is the plan.

I suppose I <span style="font-style: italic">could</span> get a stripped A3 upper, lo-pro gas block and handguard of my choice and use the rest of the parts from my existing A1 upper...but I kinda think I'd be better served with a new complete upper and sell my A1 upper to help finance it.

I do have another AR, a 20" A2, so the rifle I'm building wouldn't be my only weapon.
 
Re: AR novice...5.56 build question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BoilerUP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd love a Noveske, LMT, DD, Larue, JP, etc...but my budget won't allow it.
</div></div>

Don't waste your money on junk crap.
 
Re: AR novice...5.56 build question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BoilerUP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Other thing I'm looking at is the BCM Standard 16" midlength with YHM or VTAC handguard...about $660 with no BCG or charging handle. </div></div>

Looks like you may be interested in longer rail vs shorter rail and FSB. Another quality BCM option along these lines that would be a little lighter is . . .
http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=1062
Rainier also has nice upper with rails for about $800 with BCG and CH and use DD barrels. BCM and Noveske both have more affordable options if you will consider a FSB and MOE handguard. (Brian from Werner Arms, screen name jakhamr81, can help you with a Noveske if you are interested, check the group buy section)

One more consideration, If you plan to shoot it a lot, the cost of a Noveske, LMT, DD, rainier, etc upper will be substantially less than the cost of the ammo.

For example, if you shoot 10,000 rounds over the life of the upper, that is likely at least $3000 in ammo ($0.30 per round), so total cost of ammo and a $650 upper versus $1000 upper is $3650 vs $4000 or a savings of less than 10%.
 
Re: AR novice...5.56 build question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mil.Dot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BoilerUP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Other thing I'm looking at is the BCM Standard 16" midlength with YHM or VTAC handguard...about $660 with no BCG or charging handle. </div></div>

Looks like you may be interested in longer rail vs shorter rail and FSB. Another quality BCM option along these lines that would be a little lighter is . . .
http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=1062
</div></div>

Thanks for the link...that's $90 cheaper than the same upper on BCM's website!
 
Re: AR novice...5.56 build question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BoilerUP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Thanks for the link...that's $90 cheaper than the same upper on BCM's website! </div></div>

Really? I didn't realize that, I just posted it because I didn't recall that you could get that particular setup directly from BCM. The MI gen 2 tubes seem to be a really good bang for the buck based on the reviews I have read and the light weight is just a bonus.

Should be a very solid upper if it fits your other criteria. Can't go wrong with BCM.
 
Re: AR novice...5.56 build question

The saying "Buy once cry once" comes to mind....Save some more money man and buy something respectable , not a DPMS plz
 
Re: AR novice...5.56 build question

This cat doesn't seem to have much a clue on AR's. With ideas just all over
the place it's pretty obvious.

Usually when your at that place you don't try building a rifle yourself.
 
Re: AR novice...5.56 build question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YourMotherTrebek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This cat doesn't seem to have much a clue on AR's. With ideas just all over
the place it's pretty obvious.</div></div>

With a thread title that starts with "AR novice", it doesn't take Sherlock Holmes' deductive reasoning skills to come to that conclusion.
grin.gif


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Usually when your at that place you don't try building a rifle yourself. </div></div>

I'm not planning on "building a rifle myself". What I'm thinking of doing is getting a new upper to install on an existing rifle that I already own. I like the concept of the "REECE" rifle and am interested in something along those lines.

Look, I'm not a complete idiot. I know the brands you've recommended are the "best" ARs, but my intended uses and budget simply doesn't support a 'Tier One" AR manufacturer. I don't and won't shoot my ARs thousands of rounds per year, go through tough-on-equipment training classes, or use them in defense of my life.

My rifles are range toys...steel and paper out to a max distance of 650 yards.

So to my mind, that moves me down to a 'mid-tier' upper. That said, I want good reliable equipment and <span style="font-weight: bold">am</span> willing to pay for it, but I need to know I'm getting something for the price premium other than "guys on the internet say its the best".

I've got my big boy pants on, so let me lay out my three best choices as I see them and feel free to berate them:

1. BCM RECCE-16 upper. $640 with no charging handle or BCG
2. Palmetto State midlength 16 with YHM diamond rail. $490 with no charging handle or BCG
3. Stag 3GH upper. $700, includes BCG and charging handle

Is the BCM upper worth $150 more than the similarly configured PSA upper? If so, <span style="font-weight: bold">why</span> is it better? I *am* ignorant when it comes to ARs, so educate me!

The Stag 3GH upper seems like the overall best value since it comes ready-to-go, and has gotten very good reviews online. Its 18" long, but that isn't a dealbreaker.

What does the BCM offer that the Stag doesn't?

I don't mean to be a smartass, I'm admittedly naive about ARs so I'm seriously asking...what does the BCM do or give me that a PSA or Stag won't?
 
Re: AR novice...5.56 build question

If Stag interests you, the goal is to provide a range toy (i.e. CQB is not a factor), and distances to 650yd are in the table, maybe the 6H upper has a place.

Mine pleases me greatly, and Prvi-Partizan 69gr and 75gr Match ammo at aropudn $10-$13/20 shoots an honest 1MOA out to about 250yd (my club range's max distance).

Handloads using Varget, SRA 69SMK, and HDY 75gr HPBTM have been showing better potential, too.

Greg
 
Re: AR novice...5.56 build question

For your uses I'd say the Stag would be fine, I've never seen anyone say they belong in the scrap bin, which I have certainly seen repeated many times for some brands. PSA is not bad either, in fact they have quite a following and reports are generally favorable, they've even gone mil-spec for some parts.

Allot of people on forums are wrapped up mil-spec parts, and/or high dollar brands, nothing wrong with it, generally by getting one you are assured a couple things:

Mil-spec seems obvious, its built to a spec, a very dated one but atleast there is a standard of somesort and parts compatibility, a level of quality, and reliability is relatively assured. This does not always mean the entire part is or sum of the parts are. Some parts its materials, and testing, some just dimensions, usually if its claimed its all of them, but not always and excepting of course lower receivers, they almost never are in civi hands.

Your high dollar brands, excluding small boutique outfits will typically, but not always meet or exceed mil-spec, you will sometimes see innovations marketed first or only by them, and if the internet is to be believed typically their customer service and warranty is top notch, and their failure rates very low.

For the average end user these things don't matter too much, get the one you like that you can afford, look into warranty before purchase, stick with a brand that'll be around to warranty it if the need arises, well known brands can't be selling all junk or they wouldn't be around anymore. However if you get a DPMS, Bushy, CMMG, S&W, whatever non spec AR off the Wal-Mart rack, and it won't shoot to Mil-spec, which is something horrid like 2.5MOA, the bolt fails while doing 6 consecutive mag dumps with M855, feeding it Wolf wreaks havoc, or the upper and lower aren't the same color, finish is flaking, front sight is possibly crooked or p-mags fit tight, don't jump on here and complain, you bought serviceable, not the best, and that's pretty much what you'll be told. Oh and if you do have issues with any brand, contact the manufacturer before crying foul on the internet.
 
Re: AR novice...5.56 build question

Take a look at Mega, they make some good stuff. You can pick up a forged stripped Mega upper for $120 and build it up. I'm in the process of completing a budget build. I decided, instead of buying a complete rifle and then swapping out parts as I go, I would build something completely custom. The other plus about completing a custom build instead of buying off the rack, is that you really learn how the gun will work.

You can get some pretty good deals if you look around.
Checkout:
www.rainierarms.com (their customer service is good and responsive)
www.midwayusa.com (they take $10 off for every $100 you spend)
www.joeboboutfitters.com
Plus it is always good to look around the hide.
 
Re: AR novice...5.56 build question

PSA haas always been pretty decent quality and better yet, they stand behind their product. I would buy the PSA before the dpms, but all the DPMS products I have owned have functioned flawlessly.
 
Re: AR novice...5.56 build question

http://gtdist.com/SearchResults.aspx?SubCat=RIF&SubSub=AUTO&Category=GUNAM

here's a list for you. A rifle for every price point. I suggest buying a whole rifle and hanging on to the lower for your next build, or just sell it.

And I wouldn't consider an off the rack colt or Lmt and top end rifle.
Just very acceptable and having all the right quality control tests that you'd want done (there's a long list).

I give a shit something that says Mil spec on it for the most part. But the fact is some of those "mil spec" Ar's have tests on them that keep that quality high.

Ever seen a bushmaster bolt come apart because they didn't take the time to stake the screws? I have, sucks ass. And a "mil spec" rifle wouldn't have that problem since it's a standard procedure.
 
Re: AR novice...5.56 build question

I'd go with a PSA any day over a DPMS.

The facts and the specs of each AR speak for themselves.
 
Re: AR novice...5.56 build question

Just remember you get what you pay for, why not spend a little extra and have a rifle you'll be happy with...
 
Re: AR novice...5.56 build question

My dad's PSA has been great - If I put together a beater gun someday I wouldn't feel like I skimped going through them like I would if I got like a Model1Sales or Del Ton or other bottom list brand.
 
Re: AR novice...5.56 build question

I've done a bunch of research over the last week...learning more about what I didn't know.

At this point, I've evaluated my wants/needs and basically I'm looking at just a 'budget precision AR' upper to use on an existing lower. As previously mentioned, targets are paper and steel out to a max of 650yd, with a majority within 300yd.

I was leaning toward getting a Rock River Predator Pursuit upper; they have Wilson barrels, have a good reputation for accuracy, are ~$580-615 ready to use and are readily available. Only thing I was waffling on was wanting a 16" or 20".

Then my research lead me to White Oak Armament.

I've exchanged a few emails with WOA and I can get a complete 18 or 20" WOA varmint upper with CH/BCG for $595; for an extra $30 they'd build me one with their 18" 1:7 SPR profile barrel.

For a <$50 premium to the RRA, I'm thinking an 18" rifle-length gas SPR White Oak upper would easily suit my uses, desired accuracy and my budget.
 
Re: AR novice...5.56 build question

Cheapest route isn't always the best. I'd look at something a bit more. Just a few hundred dollars buys a much, much better gun than the DPMS/RRA/Bushmaster/Stag, etc. Remember, over the life of the rifle, the purchase price is rather small relative to what the ammunition you run through it costs. Were I looking for a precision AR, I'd very strongly consider picking up a BCM MK12Mod(whatever your preference is).
 
Re: AR novice...5.56 build question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BoilerUP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've done a bunch of research over the last week...learning more about what I didn't know.

At this point, I've evaluated my wants/needs and basically I'm looking at just a 'budget precision AR' upper to use on an existing lower. As previously mentioned, targets are paper and steel out to a max of 650yd, with a majority within 300yd.

I was leaning toward getting a Rock River Predator Pursuit upper; they have Wilson barrels, have a good reputation for accuracy, are ~$580-615 ready to use and are readily available. Only thing I was waffling on was wanting a 16" or 20".

Then my research lead me to White Oak Armament.

I've exchanged a few emails with WOA and I can get a complete 18 or 20" WOA varmint upper with CH/BCG for $595; for an extra $30 they'd build me one with their 18" 1:7 SPR profile barrel.

For a <$50 premium to the RRA, I'm thinking an 18" rifle-length gas SPR White Oak upper would easily suit my uses, desired accuracy and my budget. </div></div>

+1 for WOA, they make an outstanding product. I have a 16" stainless barrel of theirs that shoots right about 1 MOA. and boiler up!!
 
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