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If you Could Build...

The Surgeons Ghost

The Surgeons Ghost

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 10, 2012
342
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51
Geary, Oklahoma
I am trying to get an idea and learn about what one would do in building an AR-15.

Intentions for this rife. 600 yards maximum. Hunting WhiteTail, Yotes, Prairie Pups, hogs, shooting steel. I live in western Oklahoma and deal with wind on a regular basis. If it applies, not sure if it does, my knowledge about keeping a rifle tuned up is somewhat limited. Oh heck, it doesn't even exist. So high maintenance calibers may not be ideal for me. If this issue even applies to an AR platform.

Now, if you were in my shoes,

What would be your ideal caliber and how would you build the rifle?

i.e. From the ground up.

Is it to much to expect that the rifle be capable of sub-MOA?

Budget $1,800
Glass, I have that covered. Just looking for the rifle.

Oh, one other thing. My experience is with bolt actions. I am way behind the curve when it comes to the AR-15 platform.

Thanks for your help and advice.

Brian
 
Re: If you Could Build...

I'm having so much fun with the Mk 12 SDM/R config rifle that I cant stand it. With 75-77grn pills, I'm on steel at 750, and holding 3" groups at 500 with no felt recoil behind my AAC SPR/M4.

That being said, what optic do you want to run? I did an article on low-budget AR's that shoot here:
http://tacticalgunreview.com/blog/2012/0...ttarget-method/

And also caused a huge shit-storm with a "low budget rifle challenge" on Barfcom and another forum if memory serves me correctly?
 
Re: If you Could Build...

I would go with the 308, or build one in 7.62x40, that takes care of the range and knockdown power you would need. Barrel on a rifle for hunting needs would 20" minimum IMHO probably go 24" 1:11.78 twist or a little slower. Noveske, BlackHoleWeaponary, and WilsonCombat make barrels which would suit your needs. If this is your first AR build I would go with a Armalite AR10 gunsmith kit, it will provide you with a matched upper comes assembled I beleive ,and lower, lower parts kits is included along with semi-auto BCG and Charging handle. You would need either low pofile gas block,or etc depending on what you want the gun to have if it is only going to be used scoped. I would go lowprofile gas block probably going to be a .750" gas port, you will also need a gas tube of correct size dependent upon gas port placement, and a gas tube roll pin. You may need a Delta ring assemble kit, and a barrel nut, once agian depending on two peice hand gaurd or free float with rails. Buttstock with buffertube, recoil buffer, and nut, pistol grip will come with the armalite kit, headspace her and have some fun. Let me know what all you are wanting on the rifle and I can get into a little more detail. Good luck with your build.
 
Re: If you Could Build...

I'd do this:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3586229&gonew=1#UNREAD

My opinion, in your price range this is a great deal.

With a $1,800 budget you will have plenty of great choices. These POF's flat out shoot. It seems like a great deal.

If I didn't have 3 ARs in my safe and a couple builds pending I'd consider it since I was looking for one of these when I changed up and went Noveske.
 
Re: If you Could Build...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GFWTF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would go with the 308, or build one in 7.62x40, that takes care of the range and knockdown power you would need. Barrel on a rifle for hunting needs would 20" minimum IMHO probably go 24" 1:11.78 twist or a little slower. Noveske, BlackHoleWeaponary, and WilsonCombat make barrels which would suit your needs. If this is your first AR build I would go with a Armalite AR10 gunsmith kit, it will provide you with a matched upper comes assembled I beleive ,and lower, lower parts kits is included along with semi-auto BCG and Charging handle. You would need either low pofile gas block,or etc depending on what you want the gun to have if it is only going to be used scoped. I would go lowprofile gas block probably going to be a .750" gas port, you will also need a gas tube of correct size dependent upon gas port placement, and a gas tube roll pin. You may need a Delta ring assemble kit, and a barrel nut, once agian depending on two peice hand gaurd or free float with rails. Buttstock with buffertube, recoil buffer, and nut, pistol grip will come with the armalite kit, headspace her and have some fun. Let me know what all you are wanting on the rifle and I can get into a little more detail. Good luck with your build.</div></div>


what?
 
Re: If you Could Build...

A 6.8 or 6mmBR, the 6.8 would be better for hunting, the 6BR for long range targets.

A .264LBC(6.5g)would be a good choice also.
 
Re: If you Could Build...

Off topic, but what would be the est. muzzle velocity of the 6.5 Grendel shooting 130 gr JLK's out of a 16" and a 18" barrel?

Can one even run that long of a bullet out of an AR 15 with that short of a barrel? What bullet is better suited for the short barreled AR 15's?
 
Re: If you Could Build...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GlockandRoll</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm having so much fun with the Mk 12 SDM/R config rifle that I cant stand it. With 75-77grn pills, I'm on steel at 750, and holding 3" groups at 500 with no felt recoil behind my AAC SPR/M4.

That being said, what optic do you want to run? I did an article on low-budget AR's that shoot here:
http://tacticalgunreview.com/blog/2012/0...ttarget-method/

And also caused a huge shit-storm with a "low budget rifle challenge" on Barfcom and another forum if memory serves me correctly? </div></div>

Night Force 2.5-10x32

Elaborate please on this firearm a bit please. Mk 12 SDM/R???

What is this?
 
Re: If you Could Build...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GFWTF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would go with the 308, or build one in 7.62x40, that takes care of the range and knockdown power you would need. Barrel on a rifle for hunting needs would 20" minimum IMHO probably go 24" 1:11.78 twist or a little slower. Noveske, BlackHoleWeaponary, and WilsonCombat make barrels which would suit your needs. If this is your first AR build I would go with a Armalite AR10 gunsmith kit, it will provide you with a matched upper comes assembled I beleive ,and lower, lower parts kits is included along with semi-auto BCG and Charging handle. You would need either low pofile gas block,or etc depending on what you want the gun to have if it is only going to be used scoped. I would go lowprofile gas block probably going to be a .750" gas port, you will also need a gas tube of correct size dependent upon gas port placement, and a gas tube roll pin. You may need a Delta ring assemble kit, and a barrel nut, once agian depending on two peice hand gaurd or free float with rails. Buttstock with buffertube, recoil buffer, and nut, pistol grip will come with the armalite kit, headspace her and have some fun. Let me know what all you are wanting on the rifle and I can get into a little more detail. Good luck with your build. </div></div>

308 is a big plus, since my precision bolt is a 308. But what about recoil?

How hard is the 6.5's on barrels? Does one spend time trying to keep them tuned and holding sub-moa?
 
Re: If you Could Build...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The_Surgeon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am being told that I am going to have to spend a shit load of money to get sub MOA out of an AR-15? Fact or fiction? </div></div>

Really it's all in the barrel and of course you need a free-float tube.

$500-600 for a quality cut-rifled AR-15 barrel. $120-200 for a decent FF tube (cheaper if you don't need/want rails or rail segments).

Personally I'd get a Grendel (doh I already did!).

-18" 1:8 or 1:8.5 twist, SS cut-rifled barrel (call Satern barrels, or Templar Custom) with M4 feedramps. Threaded if you have a muzzle brake or suppressor in mind.
-M4 upper (you want the M4 feed ramps with the bigger dia. case)
-YHM customizable FF tube (put rails where you need them or keep it clean)
-Adjustable gas block, whatever fits your barrel
-Cheapest lower receiver you can find
-Geissle or Jard trigger

And everything else standard AR-15 parts, DPMS or whatever. Fixed stock, collapsible, whatever you want.

You should definitely be able to get it done under $1800.
 
Re: If you Could Build...

So I'm guessing since you have no experience with the AR platform you probably don't want to build your own. There are several companies out there that will do "custom" builds to your spec. I'd personally look into a Noveske with something close to these specs:
-18" medium contour stainless barrel in 6.8spc
-N4 upper and lower receivers
-13.5" NSR handguard
-Geissele SSA-E (or similar) trigger
-Whatever furtiture you prefer
-BCM gunfight charging handle

This rifle would easily do everything you stated in your original post. It would be sub-moa accurate and extremely reliable. It's also not an exotic caliber so ammo and mags are easy to find. Noveske has amazing customer service and the rifle would be shipped in less than a week.
 
Re: If you Could Build...

A Stag 3G would do everything you listed. However, .223 may not be legal in your state for deer. Many people also feel .223 is not a good choice for deer. I'm not a hunter, so I can't say for sure. BUT - there are many deer hunters on AR15.com who have used .223 to successfully harvest them. Some of the newer projectiles like the TSX and GMX (and even the old 64gr Power Point) reportedly bring the performance level from marginal to acceptable.

Also, the Stag 3G comes with a Geissele S3G trigger which is a nice trigger, but may not be ideal for hunting. An SSA or SSA-E might be more appropriate. That said, swapping triggers is easy, and you should have zero trouble selling a like-new S3G.

If you're willing to go with something more expensive, 6.5 Grendel will work well too and would be my second choice, but ammo, components, rifles, and mags are all more expensive. Actually that applies to every centerfire AR caliber that's not .223. For high-volume prairie dog hunting, anything but .223 will get expensive very quickly. Your bank balance is probably different than mine, so I'll let you decide if the potential extra expense is worth it.

The DPMS Mk12 and 3G1 are similarly configured to the Stag 3G and would probably serve you well in multiple roles.

Be sure to budget some money for a quality scope mount. LaRue and Bobro make some nice quick detach mounts. If you don't want/need quick detach, a Warne RAMP would work well too.
 
Re: If you Could Build...

I built a 18" frankengun in 5.56 for all the animals you listed except deer. I shoot the Barnes 70gr tsx. If you want to come try it out I'm only about a hour from you.
 
Re: If you Could Build...

Given your possible uses for the gun, I would try and hunt down a Bushmaster MOE in 308. For about 1200-1300 you are into a 16" 308 that is a good MOA or under shooter.

You will have a mid length forearm, 10 twist barrel and the ability to use Magpul PMAGs. I have a buddy that has one that with a good scope will shoot a solid 3/4 MOA.
 
Re: If you Could Build...

i dunno, i think i'd lean to a 6.8 SPC instead of a 6.5 Grendel. the biggest advantage to the 6.5 is the fact that Alexander Arms held the cartridge to a very strict standard, therefore there isn't a bunch of variation from one rifle to the next (do a little searching with the 6.8, there's a TON of variation because Remington released the spec's prior to getting SAAMI approval, or so i hear)
the 6.8 is going to have superior ballistic numbers compared to the 5.56 and i just plain like the stats more than the 6.5, i think it'd buck the wind better.
now, please keep in mind that i own neither of these calibers. i'm basically regurgitating what i've read elsewhere.


my opposition to the 7.62x40WT or 243LBC is that they are uncommon cartridges and chambers. getting brass would be tricky. 300blk isn't going to have the power to reach as far as you want, 5.56/.223 isn't gonna have the power to knock a whitetail over reliably (yeah, i know, we all have a second cousin who hunts with a .223, it can be done, i just wouldn't recommend it)

just my .o3
 
Re: If you Could Build...

The_Surgeon, with regards to one of your questions, on my 18 inch 264lbc, it will push a 123 scenar at about 2485,I do believe in order to get the best out of this caliber you need to be running some barrel lenght.
If you are looking for someone to build you a highly accurate AR platform in either 6.8 SPC or 264lbc/6.5 Grendel, or for that matter any standard AR caliber take a look at this man website http://www.specializeddynamics.com/
hes a site supporter, builds accurate AR's and I don't think you will hear a bad word about Scotts rifles.
 
Re: If you Could Build...

I've killed a lot of shit with a 6mm Rat. Hard to beat a 87gr bullet at 3050fps out of a ar-15 framed gun.

I've got considerably less than $1,800 in it and it's built on a a saturn barrel.

Although a 6mm AR would be a good alternative, no fireforming.
 
Re: If you Could Build...

I have 308, 6.8 and Grendel. Love 308 but in auto it is tooo heavy for the hunt. The 6.8 ad 6.5G are close, but I would take the Grendel for the distance. Grendel is also easy to find accurate reloads. Shot deer up to 450 yd with ammo not built for the kill with no problems. I have built and shot AR style rifles since the early 70's and like to stay in the small frame of the AR-15. AA bulds good uppers for your purpose (sub-moa).
 
Re: If you Could Build...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rukwikenuf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i dunno, i think i'd lean to a 6.8 SPC instead of a 6.5 Grendel. the biggest advantage to the 6.5 is the fact that Alexander Arms held the cartridge to a very strict standard, therefore there isn't a bunch of variation from one rifle to the next (do a little searching with the 6.8, there's a TON of variation because Remington released the spec's prior to getting SAAMI approval, or so i hear)
the 6.8 is going to have superior ballistic numbers compared to the 5.56 and i just plain like the stats more than the 6.5, i think it'd buck the wind better.
now, please keep in mind that i own neither of these calibers. i'm basically regurgitating what i've read elsewhere.


my opposition to the 7.62x40WT or 243LBC is that they are uncommon cartridges and chambers. getting brass would be tricky. 300blk isn't going to have the power to reach as far as you want, 5.56/.223 isn't gonna have the power to knock a whitetail over reliably (yeah, i know, we all have a second cousin who hunts with a .223, it can be done, i just wouldn't recommend it)

just my .o3 </div></div>

Kind of sort of.

The 6.8spc holds a very minor (negligible in the real world) energy gain out to about 300yd, where the two calibers cross paths, and from 300 on out the Grendel pulls ahead drastically with it's higher BC bullets.

I think there is 1 (one) factory 6.8spc load that comes close to the 6.5 Grendel. If you reload the difference between the two becomes even less. However, the Grendel still holds it's long range advantage. It does better in the wind and stays super-sonic longer.

Some say the 6.8 has a better offering of "hunting" bullets. I disagree. There are more than enough 6.5mm bullets that will put game down.

They're close, but I like the Grendel better.
 
Re: If you Could Build...

I agree with the .308 especially if dealing with a lot of wind. The Hornady 208 Amax is an awesome bullet for wind. The BC of this bullet along with the weight allows it to compete ballistically with the big Bergers at half the price. Don't get me wrong I love the Bergers but they are a bit expensive when you shoot a couple hundred an outting. (assuming you hand load)

See my post on my Mega Maten build. I have a total of $1600 into it minus the glass. This is a new build for me but I had almost the exact rifle that I was comfortable shooting out way past 600. The beauty of the .308 is you don't have to hand load to get good precision. You can buy Federal Gold Match and Black Hills off the shelf. It will even eat cheap surplus all day long if your on a budget. I have plans for a Grendel build in the future but for now my .308 and 5.56 are my go too rifles. They are the cheapest to reload with premium bullets with brass easy to find. Also if your going to hunt with it the .308 offers some superb hunting projectiles. My son clobbered a big Michigan whitetail doe from 190 yards last weekend with his Remi 700 SPS shooting a 165 Accubond. BangFLOP dead right there.
 
Re: If you Could Build...

If its mostly for hunting, I'd pick up a factory Daniel Defense or one their "Ambush" lines and keep it 5.56/.223. It will come with a good barrel, modular free float hand guard, and a great Grisselle SSA trigger. Pull it out of the box, scope it and shoot it.

You can get 70 gr Barmes TSX bullets for hogs and deer and shoot the 75 gr Hornady BTHP for target shooting.

Don't bother building for your purpose. Anymore, the only way I'd build an AR is for a competition-grade rifle or to put one together on a very low budget.
 
Re: If you Could Build...

6.5 Grendel with a 20 inch barrel in that sized frame. It has great accuracy, penetration, game killing ability, and doesn't go transonic until around 1300-1400 yards depending on your load.

If I was built on a larger (308 sized) frame, I would build it in a 260 Remington with a 22 inch barrel.
 
Re: If you Could Build...

All good suggestions above. I also like the LMT MRP which is under your budget and has the quick-change bbl system. 6.8, .204, and 300blk (soon) with 1 rifle. I have the big brother and love it, I am supposed to see one of these in CQB under the xmas tree this year...
 
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