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Range Report 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

Trental

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 30, 2011
261
8
Boise, ID
I've posted this on a couple forums (AccurateShooter and the Creedmoor forum). Looking for actual similar experience, and also opinions. Since this is well... the best forum ever... I wanted to see what some guys here might have found.

I went and shot my first thousand yard match yesterday(3x1000) with my 6.5 Creedmoor. I was using my typical 139 grain Lapua Scenar and it seemed like they were going transonic at 1000 yards. These are leaving my barrel at 2750 fps, and they should still be going 1450 fps at 1000 yards. Despite that they have that velocity I was still getting keyholing in the paper. I must be right on the edge of stabilization because only about one fourth of the bullets keyhole and I was still able to hold the 10 and 9 rings <span style="font-weight: bold">mostly</span>. I had some fliers and even had two bullets miss the 48"x48" target board completely. I thought something was wrong with my gun until my target puller got back to the line and told me that my bullets were making oblong holes in the paper. Then later in the day my second target puller also reported to me that I was getting keyholing.

I have an eight twist barrel and I'm running well above subsonic at the target so I'm kind of surprised that I'm seeing keyholing with this load. I think if I want to keep using this bullet I'm going to have to speed it up a little bit. Who else is running the 139 grain Lapua and have you shot it at 1000 yards? I'm only at 41 grains of H4350 so I think I can bring that up to 42 maybe 42 1/2 grains to get up to 4850fps and see if I can keep this bullet stabilized all the way to the target. I may have to limit my 41gr load to 800yds. It's a freaking hammer at 600yd.

About 500 rounds down the barrel, basically still new. This gun shoots in the .2s to .3s at 100yd, and shoots very well at 600yd as well depending on my wind skills that day. My last 3x600 match was a 577-18x and my best 20-shot string with it is a 197-10x. Nothing world class but not bad either. Barrel had 66 shots through it since it's last cleaning.

Needless to say I didn't win yesterday with a 517-8x. You get 2 bullets that don't hit the target, throw in some 7's & 8's, and you might as well pack up and go home.
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

Gonna tag this, for info, later
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

There is no way that should be happening, save for water or some obstruction in the barrel.

41 grains, however, is a very very light load. Where did you get the 2750 reading?
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

I got it over my Chrony Beta Master. It also matches up perfectly with my ballistic charts and scope adjustments.

No water in sight yesterday, except humidity in the good old Southern air.

I can't see a bore that shoots so well out to 600yds having a bore obstruction but I'll not rule that out. I have a match director buddy with a Hawkeye bore-scope. Maybe I'll have him send it to me and I'll check it out. From the naked eye the bore looks great. Brass is extremely concentric and my loaded rounds are very concentric as well (max of 0.002" on my RCBS gauge measured at the ogive).
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

Good luck to you, I am interested to know what in the world is going on.
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?


No way that should happen.

I shoot factory ammo from Lapua with the 139's going 2550fps in 6.5x55, and I've no problem holding them on a 15x15" plate at 1100 yards unless the wind is really messing with me.
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

Have shot them to 1k in kingsville tx the da was close if not sea level never had this problem. These chronoed 2720ish over Frank's chrono.
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

Thanks guys.

I'm going to leave the gun like it is right now (146 rounds since last cleaning) and have my friend ship me his borescope on Tuesday to check out the bore. Then clean it and check again.

The bullet should be up to the task at this velocity, but the paper doesn't lie. Shooting steel I'd never know the difference and I'd probably attribute any misses to wind or a mistake on my end... but paper is plain as day. Something is amiss, I hope I can find the issue.

<span style="font-weight: bold">I am open to any other thoughts and idea on this.</span>
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

What barrel is it and are you sure it actually measures up to a 1:8 twist ?
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

TJ, it's a factory Savage LRP. It is listed as a 1 in 8 and I checked it about 15 minutes ago and confirmed it is exactly 1 in 8.

Cleaning wise, I use a bore guide and Butch's. Pro-Shot rods and patches.
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

With my results out to 600 I just can't see it being the barrel. I'm getting .2's and .3's at 100 with this load, 1" at 300yd and I've never officially checked "groups" at 600 but my last score of 577-18x would suggest that 30% of my shots are 0.5 MOA and 96% of my shots are within 1 MOA at 600yds(at least during that match with wind).
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

Which of these numbers is the lot number? The one inside the box, or the 5 digits after the part no? Not all my boxes have the sticker, so I am thinking it's got to be the stamp inside the box.

551D2A00-8041-4DF9-AAC1-363A5437BF70-1338-00000169A848FB32.jpg


46B903DC-C363-4E40-B8A9-AFC9F42A1F50-1338-00000169AC340D62.jpg
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

I have shot mine out to 1390 yards with hits. My vel. was 2790 fps on a 8 twist barrel. At 1000 yards you should be good to go. There is a big difference from 600 to 1000 yards. At 1000 yards you will see a lot of tell tells in Loads, shooting tech.
Check you loads for SDs and ES and see what the difference are. You will need a load to shoot with lower than 10 SDs. At 100 yards a load will preform good but at 1000 yards your scores will suffer. Hope this helps
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

You can bump your load up considerably yet. I am running 42.9 of 4350 and 140 amax @ 2860. No pressure.

There's no way in Hell that bullet is in transonic flight at that velocity there. Something else has to be going on. I have found that my cm will open up a little once is getting carbon fouled but I've not had any keyhole at 1k
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

Thanks guys. This situation defies all logic. I have a bore scope on the way to check out the bore. I have to decide if I want to bother searching for another node at a higher velocity. I only have 600 of these Scenars left and will probably switch to SMKs after that.

I'll report back what I find with the scope.

I might run this load through my other Creedmoor and see what happens with it. It is a heavy 24" Shilen match select with 8 twist. If they do the same thing out of that gun then I know I have a bullet issue.
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have shot mine out to 1390 yards with hits. My vel. was 2790 fps on a 8 twist barrel. At 1000 yards you should be good to go. There is a big difference from 600 to 1000 yards. At 1000 yards you will see a lot of tell tells in Loads, shooting tech.
Check you loads for SDs and ES and see what the difference are. You will need a load to shoot with lower than 10 SDs. At 100 yards a load will preform good but at 1000 yards your scores will suffer. Hope this helps </div></div>

My SD with this load was 9 if I remember correctly. I'll have to check my notes. Even if I had a SD of 50 though I shouldn't see tumbling. It'd be inaccurate as hell but should still be stable. At this point I am worried about the tumbling, not my score. Thanks for you load info and experience. It seems like my velocity should be fine.
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

Trental,
You may have a Carbon Ring. I ran your #'s on JBM and at 1000 yards you are at Mach 1.233. I've seen carbon rings reek avoc on accuraccy at 600 - 1000 yards, and seen keyholing also. I could be wrong, but if I'm right it's an easy fix of a good scrubbing with JB Borepaste or Issoso in the throat area.
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trental</div><div class="ubbcode-body">These are leaving my barrel at 2750 fps, and they should still be going 1450 fps at 1000 yards...

... I'm only at 41 grains of H4350 ... </div></div>

I would check your load over another chrono. I only get 2783 from 43gr H4350 from my 24" Brux barrel.

Have your verified your twist? I mean checked it yourself to make sure it is in fact an 8" twist?

John
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?



Im at 2690 avg with 42 grains of h4350 from a 18.5" barrel.


Ch
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hondo64d</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trental</div><div class="ubbcode-body">These are leaving my barrel at 2750 fps, and they should still be going 1450 fps at 1000 yards...

... I'm only at 41 grains of H4350 ... </div></div>

I would check your load over another chrono. I only get 2783 from 43gr H4350 from my 24" Brux barrel.

Have your verified your twist? I mean checked it yourself to make sure it is in fact an 8" twist?

John </div></div>

Twist rate is a confirmed 8 twist. Also, my adjustments are dead on from 100yds to 300yds to 600yds and to 1000yds based on my Shooter Ballistic App. My muzzle velocity is correct. Otherwise my ballistic chart would be all wrong. I'm running a 26" barrel.

You are running 43gr of H4350 in a 6.5 Creedmoor? And only getting 2783fps?? That would seem slow for such a hot load.
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

If you can give us the zero distance, and the amount of elevation required to hit the X ring at 1000Y, we can tell very easily if the chrony was exaggerating....

I doubt you are getting that velocity with 41gr of 4350.

--Fargo007
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

Inputting 2750fps into a ballistics calculator using Brian Litz's data on the 139gr Lapua requires 30.9 MOA (30.2 for non-Litz) to get to 1k from 100yd for my location. My actual is 29.5 MOA up to get to 1000yd from my 100yd zero. Guys, this load/velocity is right in line with everyone else running H4350 and "140gr" bullets out of 26" barrels. If anything I might be running a small amount faster than 2750fps.
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

Just got back from the range with one of my other Creedmoors. I shot the same load (41.0gr H4350 w/139gr Lapua) and got 2767fps out of a 23.5" Shilen "Ratchet" twist barrel (1 in 8" twist).

I also shot some 142SMKs with 41.5gr H4350 and they came in at 2736fps. These are standard velocities for the Creedmoor with this weight of H4350.

I won't be able to shoot at any distance for a week or so, but I don't want to shoot my f-class rifle until I can bore scope it.
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

If I recall correctly, last three digits come from shift supervisor on duty when bullets were done. Rest on beginning is date code.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trental</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Which of these numbers is the lot number? The one inside the box, or the 5 digits after the part no? Not all my boxes have the sticker, so I am thinking it's got to be the stamp inside the box.

551D2A00-8041-4DF9-AAC1-363A5437BF70-1338-00000169A848FB32.jpg

</div></div>
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

So not the lot number? All 11 of my boxes have that same stamp. If what you say is correct then I think I'm good to go huh?
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

Looked at my barrel thru the Hawkeye bore scope. Chamber is spotless shiny, leade area is crisp and sharp, no sign if any kind of carbon ring, and only very very very little sign of copper fouling. I mean, there is copper color and that's it. Nothing built up. I'm going to clean the piss out of it tonight. I'll try and takes before and after photos, but to be honest it's kind of like trying to take a photo of the inside of your pee hole.
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

dude that pee hole comment made me fucking laugh. sorry off topic
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jake6547</div><div class="ubbcode-body">dude that pee hole comment made me fucking laugh. sorry off topic </div></div>

I laughed a little when I wrote it. Ha.
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

Well, here are the results from today. I am going to load up some additional rounds and go retest tomorrow and also test at 300yds. I am liking the 42.2gr and 42.4gr loads (especially at 2800fps). Today the range was crowded and I know all the additional cease fires and stuff was affecting my shooting. Zero signs of high pressure all the way up to 42.4gr. Maybe I could try two more sets at 42.6gr and 42.8gr. Going from 2750fps to 2800fps only buys me another 30fps at 1000yds.

LapuaRetest1.jpg


Uncluttered view:

LapuaRetest.jpg
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

You ever pulled a bullet on your factory ammo. Maybe deffect in the bullet, powder or something else. who is to say that the factory did not miss something on the bullet.
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

I loaded up some additional rounds to test this morning. I loaded (H4350) @ 42.2gr, 42.4gr, 42.6gr and 42.8gr. I loaded 6 of each so that I could run the test at 100 and again at 300 yards. Below is the 100yd result. I posted the measured target and just the blank one so that the target can be viewed a little more clearly.

I have no idea why the 42.2gr target turned out so badly. The low shot was the first shot and maybe I wasn't settled properly. 42.4gr again clocked in at 2802fp, 42.6gr at 2818fps and finally, 42.8gr at 2832fps.

LapuaOCW1.jpg

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LapuaOCWfinal-1.jpg
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

Here was my result at 300yds. Overall I was pretty happy with all the loads. The 42.6gr load would have been better but I flinched that last shot out to the right. The gun recoiled differently and I expected it to be worse. I'll take 0.356 MOA at 300yds any day though. I think my final load will be 42.6, 42.7 or 42.8 grains of H4350.

LapuaFinal300.jpg
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trental</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've posted this on a couple forums (AccurateShooter and the Creedmoor forum). Looking for actual similar experience, and also opinions. Since this is well... the best forum ever... I wanted to see what some guys here might have found.

I went and shot my first thousand yard match yesterday(3x1000) with my 6.5 Creedmoor. I was using my typical 139 grain Lapua Scenar and it seemed like they were going transonic at 1000 yards. These are leaving my barrel at 2750 fps, and they should still be going 1450 fps at 1000 yards. Despite that they have that velocity I was still getting keyholing in the paper. I must be right on the edge of stabilization because only about one fourth of the bullets keyhole and I was still able to hold the 10 and 9 rings <span style="font-weight: bold">mostly</span>. I had some fliers and even had two bullets miss the 48"x48" target board completely. I thought something was wrong with my gun until my target puller got back to the line and told me that my bullets were making oblong holes in the paper. Then later in the day my second target puller also reported to me that I was getting keyholing.

I have an eight twist barrel and I'm running well above subsonic at the target so I'm kind of surprised that I'm seeing keyholing with this load. I think if I want to keep using this bullet I'm going to have to speed it up a little bit. Who else is running the 139 grain Lapua and have you shot it at 1000 yards? I'm only at 41 grains of H4350 so I think I can bring that up to 42 maybe 42 1/2 grains to get up to <span style="color: #FF9900">4850fps</span> and see if I can keep this bullet stabilized all the way to the target. I may have to limit my 41gr load to 800yds. It's a freaking hammer at 600yd.

About 500 rounds down the barrel, basically still new. This gun shoots in the .2s to .3s at 100yd, and shoots very well at 600yd as well depending on my wind skills that day. My last 3x600 match was a 577-18x and my best 20-shot string with it is a 197-10x. Nothing world class but not bad either. Barrel had 66 shots through it since it's last cleaning.

Needless to say I didn't win yesterday with a 517-8x. You get 2 bullets that don't hit the target, throw in some 7's & 8's, and you might as well pack up and go home. </div></div>
That's a pretty hot load for a 139... Even at 2550fps, you should be supersonic just slightly and completely stable with an 8 twist at the 1k mark. Verify twist rate and chrono readings over a couple chronos if possible
 
Re: 139gr Lapua Scenars go transonic at 1000yd?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kraaseyez</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's a pretty hot load for a 139... Even at 2550fps, you should be supersonic just slightly and completely stable with an 8 twist at the 1k mark. Verify twist rate and chrono readings over a couple chronos if possible </div></div>

Its actually a pretty light load.

Twist has been verified. Velocity is correct. My measured velocity matches perfectly with drop charts at 300yd, 600yd and 1,000yd.