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Thoughts - Squirrels, angle shooting, and ammo FPS

TOP PREDATOR

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jul 19, 2008
4,591
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SCRANTON AREA PENNSYLVANIA
Let me start off by tell you about last year's squirrel season.

Usually I carry a .22mag running 30gr hornady vmax ammo, just in case I came across a predator or varmint along the way. Last year I thought to go back to the .22LR. Since I devoted myself to CCI Standard Velocity, I figured I'd "Paco tool" a couple boxes of CCI SVs into hollowpoints as to keep all my data and adjustments the same as my paper punching, plus having a bulk inventory of SV, the chances of running out are slim and more economical too.

As my paper punching data starts at 25 yards, I figured a mildot holdUNDER at 10 yards, thinking that most of the squirrels I harvest are out of trees that 10 yards "on the flat" would get me on those critters (which up a tree, is sometimes no distance / just straight up). As my optic is SFP, I figured if I kept it on the same magnification, I'd be fine.

The first day 2011 came and went, missed everything. Not one hit. I'm not the world's best shooter, but able to multiple hit dime sized targets at 50 yards and 20 out of 25 shots at 200 yards in 6"--- but missed every squirrel up the tree, and usually missed high. Squirrels that I spotted at the base of the next few trees over....missed low using the same holdUNDER. Just a bit further, around 15 yards. Getting frustrated, I went back to the .22 magnum, with plenty of bag limits taken, and a lot less ribbing from my brother in law. He's usually my squirrel hunting partner and his ribbing about me not being able to hit something 10 yards away after all the longer range .22 stuff I do was a bit embarrassing.

So now the 2012 season, last year's situation was still driving me crazy, so I figured I'd give the .22LR another whirl with the SV ammo. I went back to the range to make sure my .22LR "squirrel hunting zero" was good, but this time at 15 yards. Same thing, missed every squirrel I shot at. Being frustrated, I thought about the fact that my .22 magnum is doubled in FPS / flatter shooting, and thinking back to my archery days about angled shots, the arc of the arrow, and the point of aim that has to be adjusted...well I had a "AH HUH!" moment.

So I found a tree that had a few small blemishes up and down the trunk (for the tree huggers, the area is slated for construction, the tree was a dogwood of no commercial value) about 15 yards out, took a few shots toward the base, dead on hits. Then started to move up the tree. The higher I went, the higher the point of impact (POI) from the point of aim (POA), even from 15 yards out. At the highest point of the tree, as much as 3" above the blemish I was aiming at. Every shot, even just a few feet higher, resulted in a different point of impact.

Every time I compensated on a squirrel thinking I was now dead on for the next one, the POI / POA was changing depending on how high the squirrel was. Add that to being at a different distances away from the tree, which I also tried. The POI/POA also varied depending on how close or far away I was from the tree, as the angle changed. No wonder I missed so many squirrels.

We all know how cosine / angled shots with centerfires at longer distances plays a big part on if your going to hit something precisely. The flatter shooting the rifle / cartridge, the more less the difference when taking a shot at elevated or declined targets.

I didn't think this was such a big deal with rimfires, after all as a young-un, I shot a good share of squirrels not worrying or even knowing about cosine, POI/POA, etc. Seen a squirrel, aimed dead on, 1 less squirrel. Plus back then, most of the ammo one used was High Velocity. At the time I didn't know what standard velocity or match ammo was nor was it popular or available through most outlets.

So I grabbed some Fed Bulk 36gr high velocity hollowpoints today, established my 15 yard "squirrel hunting zero" (which on a side note equals the SV zero at 25 yards, but hitting 1" left). So making the windage adjustment, was dead on at 15 yards. I did the same drill as before on the blemished tree. 15 yards flat, then moved up the tree. From the base of the tree graduating to about 30 yards up the hits did increase in height away from the point of aim, but soooo much less than with the standard velocity. Well within the size of a squirrel's head, I'd have to guestimate only about 1/2" difference from the base to the top of the tree compared to the previous 3" swing with standard velocity. At different distances away from the tree, the high velocity was also more forgiving. Thus I believe the reason I took more squirrels out of trees with the .22 mag than with .22LR using standard velocity ammo.

So just to "proof" my AH HUH moment, I went to a series of culm dumps (coal mining waste mounds) just down the road, and found one that had several trees growing from the center. I did just the opposite...zeroed in on a blemish at the TOP of the tree approximately the same height and approximately 15 yards away from the crest of the mound, then shot downward until I reached the base, both with SV and HV. The standard velocity again showed a much higher difference than the high velocity, and although one would think the hits would be lower (the shot being opposite from an uphill shot), the hits were still high, but not as much with both the HV and SV, with the HV again being more forgiving.

Again going back to archery, this can explain it better than I ever could:
http://www.kingsmountainarchers.org/tips/angle-shots.html

Of course the effect is much more pronounced with the slower moving and higher massed arrow, but the principle remains.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/shooting_uphill.htm

http://www.firearmssite.com/shoot_uphill.htm



<span style="font-weight: bold"> So when it comes to severe angled shooting with .22LR some things to consider:
</span>

1. Standard, subsonic, match velocity - more effect on the point of impact as the angle increases from the shooter to the target. Due to the greater arc of the trajectory just like an arrow out of a bow and more dramatic with slower FPS ammo.

2. What you may be able to compensate for at 5 yards shooting almost straight up will be different even at 10 or 15 yards as the angle changes.

3. If shooting at an upward target, aim low. If shooting at a downward target, aim low, but not as much.

4. As squirrel hunting goes, rarely do they give you enough time to do the math to pull off a good severe angled shot using SV, nor is it really value added to do the math anyway.

So there are some thoughts...though standard / subsonic / match velocity ammo has it's place and advantages on the target range, when it comes to hitting targets that are scurrying relatively level to you, 60+ feet above you in a tree, or 60+ feet below you in a ravine, high velocity offers more consistancy of hits and more game in your bag.
 
Re: Thoughts - Squirrels, angle shooting, and ammo FPS

Well done! I'm out of the country for the rest of the season, but I can certainly attest to the accuracy of your findings. (Wow, you found coal slag near Scranton?!?! Haha.) Three years ago I did a fair amount of squirrel hunting using CCI SV's and experienced a lot of short range misses as well.

-The Kid.
 
Re: Thoughts - Squirrels, angle shooting, and ammo FPS

Nice info it does make a big difference on angled shots if you killing for the meat, head shots are a must.

I use a shotgun...ant got time for geometry. .22lr ruins the meat on a bad shot, number 8's make small holes so the spices can get in the meat.

Get a good squirrel dog, and it's much easier. ( they won't go to the ground)

Squirrel and dumplings is my specialty.
 
Re: Thoughts - Squirrels, angle shooting, and ammo FPS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hatchcock, why the name change? </div></div>

Used an old junk email to register. Unable to retrieve log in info for old email; ergo for SH.com.

By the way, PM me if you want a contact name for fox squirrel in Snyder Co. I saw some there every time (10 in 4 trips) while groundhog hunting this past summer, but I'm out of the country now and won't get to kill them myself. No guarantees; just a lead.
 
Re: Thoughts - Squirrels, angle shooting, and ammo FPS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DFOOSKING</div><div class="ubbcode-body">15yd zero huh.....

I'd bet your hitting in the intial arc of the bullets travel instead of the trailing end of the arc. As your moving out the bullet is climbing...and the faster rounds have a shallower arc so basically your "danger space" on your squirrels is a greater section of distance.
</div></div>

yeah exactly, fooled around little moving back to 25Y and 50Y...rather than dialing up, i had to dial down.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadly_punk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
By the way, PM me if you want a contact name for fox squirrel in Snyder Co. </div></div>

will do
 
Re: Thoughts - Squirrels, angle shooting, and ammo FPS

I have shot thousands and have not found this to be an issue. I sight dead on at 50 and dial for longer ranges. How high is your scope above your bore?
 
Re: Thoughts - Squirrels, angle shooting, and ammo FPS

I have done the same thing. I first used to use a .22mag and had no problems nailing "tree rats" and other critters. But in 2011 I also took to the woods with a .22lr . Then I remembered the angles just after I missed my 1st 2 "tree rats". Problem solved!
 
Re: Thoughts - Squirrels, angle shooting, and ammo FPS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rth1800</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have shot thousands and have not found this to be an issue. I sight dead on at 50 and dial for longer ranges. How high is your scope above your bore?
</div></div>

running low rings on top of a DIP 20 moa base. not exceptionally high off the receiver at all.

i never used to have that problem either, but that was before i starting using SV. back in the day, all we had was HV.
 
Re: Thoughts - Squirrels, angle shooting, and ammo FPS

A rifle will always have two zero points. One on the ascending and one on the descending arc of the bullet. With your .22 and a 15yd zero you are on zero at 15 ascending and as the bullet falls back through your line of sight (on a level horizontal shot) you will have another perfect zero somewhere further down range.
It is important to know the distance of this second zero for hunting small game. Shots in between the two zero distances will require hold under. Shots closer than first zero will require hold under and shots further than second zero will require hold over.
With a 15yd zero shots taken at steep angles will require hold under for the first 12 or so yds, then dead on hold for the next 2-3 yards then hold under beyond that distance.
 
Re: Thoughts - Squirrels, angle shooting, and ammo FPS

Aaaaaaaargh! Top...did you have to post a scientific explanation?
Now you've probably ruined my next trip out to the woods.
You know that all that serious thinking is going to make me
second guess what is usually an automatic reflex. I mean c'mon,
up till now all I did was see 'em, stalk 'em and shoot 'em.
Now I'm gonna start picturing geometric corrections
and have to carry a ballistic calculator to figure trajectories
just so I can hit a tree rat. Wait a minute...never mind.
I forgot for a second...
grin.gif
...I changed squirrel rifles this year.

20grfmj.JPG


Gotta luv that 2375 fps supersonic icepick...
wink.gif



 
Re: Thoughts - Squirrels, angle shooting, and ammo FPS

Always zeroed my scoped squirrel rifles at 50yds. I have never seen this problem. I agree with others that imply this is not a cosine problem. I too believe it is a function of a very short 15yd zero. I will let you know next week. I plan to use my long range competition 22, to issue payback for my decimated blue Hopi corn crop. Will leave it dialed to 50Y and see how many misses I can rack up. I honestly plan to carry my 22A with irons for "up the tree" shots and anything closer than 25yds...so I really don't plan on missing. After gleaning 3 total ears from my corn field for next years seed, I just don't feel like playing around.
Next year the gloves are off, no more of this "sporting chance" shit, "won't kill them out of season", etc etc.

I remember thinking back in July, "hell they can't eat the whole field."
 
Re: Thoughts - Squirrels, angle shooting, and ammo FPS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Next year the gloves are off, no more of this "sporting chance" shit, "won't kill them out of season", etc etc.

I remember thinking back in July, "hell they can't eat the whole field."</div></div>

laugh.gif
Famous last words. Haha. Buenas suerte, amigo.

The old HR 939 with its new 6" barrel will be at my side if I get out this year and save the rifle for 25-150 yards.
 
Re: Thoughts - Squirrels, angle shooting, and ammo FPS

I'm guessing that a big part of the increasing misses as you go more vertical has to to with the vertical offset of your scope's axis above the bore. And were you to switch back to irons, or a real low, skinny tubed, scope, some of the miss thing would disappear.

You're zeroing when the scope & rifle are essentially horizontal, but when you start getting into steeper & steeper upward shots, the sight's height above the bore's axis comes into play progressively more & more. For as you shoot more vertically, bullet drop from POA gets to being less of a factor, per the steepness of the angle of the shot.
Or at least that's what seems to make sense after a 20+ hour day ;-) It's worth a think.
 
Re: Thoughts - Squirrels, angle shooting, and ammo FPS

I am surprised at the people using 22 mag and HMR as I find them far too loud and disturbing in the woods. With my 52C and Eley 10X I can shoot and shoot in one area and the squirrels keep moving around. One shot from a mag and I need to move 200 yards to get any shooting.
Leaves are falling, the time is right.
RTH
 
Re: Thoughts - Squirrels, angle shooting, and ammo FPS

I shoot Field Target air rifle so I'm acquainted with very short range shooting even from yard to yard.

I think your struggle has mostly to do with mechanical offset.

RANT coming...See here's another example of why the friggen scope manufacturers need to have a 10Y parallax on every scope with a adjustable parallax and for 3 reasons.

1. So one can see(focus)clearly on your target at close distance.
2. Obviously to have no parallax error.
3. Too use as a rangefinder. Yes with a little calibration the difference between mere feet at closer distances is discernible and attainable.

A trip to JBM exposes the mill settings of my small game hunting 22 call PCP air rifle at 945 fps from 8 yards to 22 yards with my 30Y zero.

Calculated Table
Range Drop
(yd) (mil)
8 -3.0
9 -2.4
10 -1.9
11 -1.6
12 -1.3
13 -1.0
14 -0.8
15 -0.7
16 -0.5
17 -0.4
18 -0.3
19 -0.2
20 -0.2
21 -0.1
22 -0.1

As you can see the difference in mils from 18-22 yards is small. The difference in mils from 8-12 yards is large.

Say the squirrel was 8 yards instead a assumed 10Y, you'll likely miss high.

Say he's 15 yards and your estimating 10Y. Likely a miss low.

Now if you have a scope with 10Y parallax that is calibrated with a piece of tape on the side focus. You can focus the scope, determine the distance by looking at the parallax and corresponding mark on the tape, dial or holdover/under.

FFP scopes and 10Y parallax using holdovers is just a lot of fun for this kind of stuff!
 
Re: Thoughts - Squirrels, angle shooting, and ammo FPS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am surprised at the people using 22 mag and HMR as I find them far too loud and disturbing in the woods.</div></div>

Feral hog problem here in Florida,has reached the point where they can be hunted year round.
As a result, the sound of a rifle or shotgun barely gets the attention of the local tree rats.
22 mag or 17 hmr, with their almost flat trajectories, makes squirrel popping so simple.
grin.gif


Florida Hog Regs

 
Re: Thoughts - Squirrels, angle shooting, and ammo FPS

I'm using a BSA 4-14 tactical, the one from midway for $250 on sale.

It's a better scope than I thought it would be and tracks well to 10 mils which is 155 yards on that air rifle where I live.

The next FFP scope with a step up in quality that I know of with a 10Y parallax is the Bushnell tactical 3-12. I used to have one with a regular mildot reticle. My only complaint was the eyebox was a little tight on 12x.
 
Re: Thoughts - Squirrels, angle shooting, and ammo FPS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jaia</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Aaaaaaaargh! Top...did you have to post a scientific explanation?
Now you've probably ruined my next trip out to the woods.
You know that all that serious thinking is going to make me
second guess what is usually an automatic reflex. I mean c'mon,
up till now all I did was see 'em, stalk 'em and shoot 'em.
Now I'm gonna start picturing geometric corrections
and have to carry a ballistic calculator to figure trajectories
just so I can hit a tree rat. Wait a minute...never mind.
I forgot for a second...
grin.gif
...I changed squirrel rifles this year.

20grfmj.JPG


Gotta luv that 2375 fps supersonic icepick...
wink.gif



</div></div>


My FSS doesn't shoot FMJ's for shit, so I'm still using the 17gr VMAX but only trying for headshots. Fired 4 shots this year, all at squirrel heads at around 30-50 yards and missed each one.

I'll get them little bastards sooner or later. Maybe it was the coffee but I couldn't steady quickly enough before they'd move.

I'm just hunting grey squirrels so head shots are really hard when they're on the move.
 
Re: Thoughts - Squirrels, angle shooting, and ammo FPS

Not really big on resurrecting old threads but this one has a lot of study value and I am glad TP posted.

Finally got a hole in the fence yesterday from all the honey-do's and such to issue some crop destruction payback.

Bad day for squill hunting due to wind but figured with the population I am hunting I could get a few, and you gotta start somewhere.

Set out on the porch and watched the woods and the bird feeder for a bit of a soft start. There are issues with the backstops in this instance so I had to pick and choose my shots and I was trying to get a good reading on what my bullet was doing. First victim was sitting on a dogwood limb facing me with his back against the tree at 10yds. The 16x MK4 focused perfectly and I put the crosshairs on his nose. Bullet struck 1/2" low, and as he was hunched over a bit and at a slight angle, exited his ribs.
Next victim was watched closely from 50 yds out directly in front of 30 chickens...no shot. Provided a brief shot opportunity at 45 yds in front of large oak but quickly moved in front of barn...no shot. Made his way in a straight line down the hill to sit directly under the bird feeder. Rifle rested on table with bipod. Made the shot at 15yds with crosshairs resting between his beady eyes. Bullet went in his mouth breaking two top teeth and exiting center shoulder neck junction.
The rifle was my competition/trainer 64 MPR rig and turret was dialed in to 50yd setting. The sight height about 1.75". The scope is mounted as low as I can get it on that rifle comfortably and as near to my big rig wearing the same scope.

Nothing scientific about what I was doing, just some intentional observations. I did get off my perch and move around the woods a bit and had four more that would not allow me a shot that I liked with a good backstop angle. This particular area(FIL's backyard) is better suited to #4 shot from a .410, but I detest biting down on a piece of shot when I eat squill and dumplins.

I must say I like the Center X for hunting just fine. the one bad angle shot dragged guts out of the exit wound but it DID NOT bust any, and the tree rat skinned out nice and clean, no meat damage at all and no busted guts, try that with Federal bulk pack HV hollow points. I had considered flattening the tips of the bullet just for hunting but I have rethunk that idea, I like em the way they are. If you hit them in the neck/head/chest area this bullet will work fine I believe. Really not the first time I have used low velocity match ammo to hunt so I wasn't surprised.

I plan to continue to keep detailed results and see what kind of anomolies I can come up with. It would appear you may be better off to keep a 50yd zero. Sight height could maybe be causing problems? I dunno.

Possibly use low vel ammo and pick shots carefully to allow larger target. I can see where you could miss if he is just peeking out his head from behind a tree, big room for error there.