Ar lowers, whats the real difference

[skeetlee]

I am still looking for some AR lowers and by me not knowing a lot about these types of rifles i need a couple things cleared up.
I found some lowers that look pretty good and the price is about half of a rock river. Surplus ammo and arms is the lowers i have found " http://www.surplusammo.com/surplus-ammo-...stock-assembly/ " Whats the real difference between a lower such as this and a rock river or DPMS lower? I did read that these cheaper lowers are thinner in material that some of the others. Any truth in this? These Surplus ammo and arms lowers are mil spec, whatever that really means, so are they good to go? Lee

 

[groundhogbuster]

Re: Ar lowers, whats the real difference

There is a few Co's that actually "make" their own lowers, such as LAR, CMT,etc. However after touring a cpl Machine Shops, I can say that I have seen "Colt Roll Mks" in more than 1 machine shop. But, several shops make their own Billet lowers, like the POF, Denny's, etc. Surplus ammo is in a complete different league than RRA, and you will find that out when you go to sale them. An example is that Kaiser Defense used to make Spikes Tactical lowers, not sure anymore. But there's a reason Noveske/RRA/Spikes is more expensive than surplus ammo's. I didn't like the fit and finish of the surplus ammo I got, so I stick with RRA / Noveske / Colt etc. If your looking for a great lower look at Carolina Mtn Tactical. I know who makes them (can't say) but you will love them.

 

[BigBlue&Goldie]

Re: Ar lowers, whats the real difference

The difference is in the rollmark if they are machined to spec. Resell value will be a lot lower, but performance will be the same. I wouldn't hesitate to buy one.

FWIW, there are only 3 companies that make forgings for ALL of the manufacturers, unless you go billet. It just boils down to if they were machined to spec. Finishes may vary in quality, but if you rub your receivers down with oil the difference will become less obvious.

If you are on a budget, spend your money on a better trigger and barrel and stick with the SAA lower.

 

[SoTex]

Re: Ar lowers, whats the real difference

You will get lots of opinions on this. First thing that we should clear up is if you are looking at forged lowers or billet lowers? Generally speaking, a billet lower will cost a signifcant amount more than a forged, and are widely regarded as a "nicer" lower. My personal favorite lower is the Seekins Precision Sp223 just due to the quality of machine work I have seen come out of Seekins for as long as I have dealt with their products, and sheer sex appeal. Second to that I have used several Sun Devil lowers and like them pretty well. The shop I was employed at utilized some of the Black Rain lowers, and they really aren't a bad lower either (just not a huge fan of the flashy finishes).

All that being said, most customers builds or upgrades have been to straight up plain jane forged lowers, everything from no name stuff from the gun show to Aero seconds out of AIM to Noveske's and Megas. What I have seen in the REALLY cheap lowers that can cause some issues are hammer/trigger pin holes drilled off axis, miscellaneous holes drilled undersized and/or oversized, a couple buffer extension holes tapped off axis, really messed up anodize work, cerakote/alumakote hack jobs where it has been applied way too thick, etc. Of all of those things, I will take the purple anno jobs all day long if that is all that is wrong with it--thats an easy fix. But things like the buffer extension pretty much mean that awesome $60.00 lower deal you got is now a $60.00 piece of scrap, though you can sometimes run a dedicated .22 on one depending on how far off it is.

If building rifles is a newer thing to you, I would reccomend going with one of the big name brands: busmaster, dpms, RRA, or something like that. There is less chance of you winding up with a lemon, and even less chance they won't make it right for you if you end up with one. You don't want your early rifle building experiences to be a real PITA, especially when you don't have bins full of parts to play with to try and fix things that should have been correct in the first place.

Leading up to and immediately after the Obama election there was a HUGE demand for black rifles. At that point there was a small number of forgeries(like half a dozen or so) that were making the vast majority of parts for AR-15's. Those parts were made to different specs and distributed to different manufacturers who then made rifles or re-sold the parts under their label. During that time demand vastly outstripped supply thus the price of rifles and lowers went up in some places 300 percent or so. That led to lots of companies seeing that as a business opportunity and getting into the AR business whether in parts or whole rifles. As an industry we did get a lot of good through that process in terms of innovation, quality, and price normalization. However, there were a lot of people who got into the business that IMHO really should not have, and produced a really substandard product. I think that at this point most of those guys have gone out of business, but I can not tell you how many lowers or rifles I saw coming into the shop that were bought at gun shows and were just awful. From what it looked like to me, a lot of these were 80% lowers being finished in garage shops and then sold commercially (with or without appropriate FFL I have no idea), or guys with a mill just giving it a whirl. It was on a lot of those that I came across the more severe of the problems I mentioned earlier, off axis buffer extension's, hammer/trigger pins, missing a bolt stop pin hole, etc. I would beware of any of those types of products or deals that look way too good to be true. Sometimes lowers are really cheap because they are an overrun from a huge forgery house like AERO, and sometimes they are cheap for a reason. Even when you have built thousands, it can be hard to spot a bad one when its lying stripped on a table. The buffer extension does not have to be wildly off to make the weapon not function, something like a few degrees. Without screwing an extension in, that is really hard to see with just your eyecrometer.

Sorry for the long post, hope some part of that made sense.

 

[madcratebuilder]

Re: Ar lowers, whats the real difference

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skeetlee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am still looking for some AR lowers and by me not knowing a lot about these types of rifles i need a couple things cleared up.
I found some lowers that look pretty good and the price is about half of a rock river. Surplus ammo and arms is the lowers i have found " http://www.surplusammo.com/surplus-ammo-...stock-assembly/ " Whats the real difference between a lower such as this and a rock river or DPMS lower? I did read that these cheaper lowers are thinner in material that some of the others. Any truth in this? These Surplus ammo and arms lowers are mil spec, whatever that really means, so are they good to go? Lee</div></div>

Comparing forged 7075 receiver sets you well find a difference in the finish has a big effect on retail prices. The three common finishes are.
MIL-A-8625, Type II, Class 2 (standard ano)
MIL-A-8625, Type III, Class 2 (hardcoat ano)
MIL-A-63576, Type I, AMS 2482 (hardcoat with Teflon)

The hardcoat ano well be a rockwell 60 or so surface hardness (woodpecker lips).

SAA lowers are made by Aero Precision and have a typeII finish, AP branded lowers are typeII. AP makes lowers for others with different finishes.

The dozen or so AP lowers I have assembled have been fine, everything in spec.

I would buy something a little better than a DPMS LPK. My personal preference is a two stage LPK from ArmaLite. I've assembled many of these and they offer a excellent two stage trigger with top quality small parts at a great price. You well see different quality of finish with the different brands of LPK's.

A stripped lower from SAA, AP, AXTS (cool anbi) with a ArmaLite LPK would be my recommendation for a budget build. Add a bad-ass 45* safety selector (requires the AXTS) and it would rock.

 

[346ci]

Re: Ar lowers, whats the real difference

Go with a Mega receiver and be done with it. For a LPK, I'd check out the RRA kit with the 2 stage NM trigger, those can be had for around $115-130 shipped.

 

[Guy Montag]

Re: Ar lowers, whats the real difference

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SoTex</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> My personal favorite lower is the Seekins Precision Sp223 just due to the quality of machine work I have seen come out of Seekins for as long as I have dealt with their products, and sheer sex appeal. </div></div>

^^^^^
This

 

[smschulz]

Re: Ar lowers, whats the real difference

This question gets asked all the time.
Basically the answer is: nothing.
In reality there are reasons we want one or another.
The basic reason is cosmetic.
There are no performance reasons.
I DO like Mega and Seekins Billet lower matched with their upper but for the most part they don't perform any better.
YMMV

 

[Graham]

Re: Ar lowers, whats the real difference

Matched sets are tourist traps. The lower receiver holds the trigger group and mates the upper to the stock.

 

[Bennybone]

Re: Ar lowers, whats the real difference

To me the only differentiation in basic stock lowers (no fancy triggers, anti walk pins, etc) is material, i.e. polymer vs aluminum / steel / billet.

I am using the New Frontier LW15 and based on the features and price I've got to say that no matter the facts and pros of the metallic variety I can't see moving that way.

My 2 cents.

BB

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Ar lowers, whats the real difference

who all offers ambi lowers?

 

[trisurvivor]

Re: Ar lowers, whats the real difference

Battle Arms Development-the new style is better than the originals and give you tons of options.

 

[madcratebuilder]

Re: Ar lowers, whats the real difference

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AXEMAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">who all offers ambi lowers?
</div></div>

The AXTS AX556 is very nice, their A-DAC-F if your on a budget. I consider the A-DAC my standard lower for all builds now. Add the BAD-ASS 45* safety selector and you are high speed and low drag.

http://axtsweapons.com/products/AX556

Seekins offers some nice ambi lowers.

 

[2ndPanzer]

Re: Ar lowers, whats the real difference

The KAC ambi lower is very nice as well. Only problem is you usually have to by the whole complete lower for $700, and strip it down and put what you want on it. But it's a nice lower.

 

[Sig716]

Re: Ar lowers, whats the real difference

Lar Grizzly make good lowers, and they make them for several different companies!

 

[holy cow]

Re: Ar lowers, whats the real difference

Lee, give me a call some time on my cell if you want and we can bullshit some about it if you want.

Dan
513-305-2561

 

[Mil.Dot]

Re: Ar lowers, whats the real difference

Mega also makes Ambi lowers.

 

[AzNooB]

Re: Ar lowers, whats the real difference

I bought a Noveske Gen2 due to fanboyism. It doesn't perform any better than my $60 blemished PSA. You can argue it is worse because my SF 60 round mag won't fit because of the flared mag well.

 

[windermike]

Re: Ar lowers, whats the real difference

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Go with a Mega receiver and be done with it. For a LPK, I'd check out the RRA kit with the 2 stage NM trigger, those can be had for around $115-130 shipped. </div></div>

Tell me where you can get a RRA kit with a 2 stage nm trigger for under $150. I would like to buy a few.

Mike

 

[dogman]

Re: Ar lowers, whats the real difference

RRA kit with 2-stage trigger for $132.

http://www.ar15sales.com/store/miscparts.html

Bam, that shit just happened.

 

[Nachtadler]

Re: Ar lowers, whats the real difference

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AXEMAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">who all offers ambi lowers?
</div></div>

The only companies that I'm aware of that offer lowers with ambi mag releases AND bolt catch releases are Knights, LWRC, and ATXS . Several other companies, like Mega Arms and Seekins, offer lowers with ambi bolt releases, but no ambi mag release. As was already mentioned, you have to buy a KAC complete lower. I have no idea where to buy a fully ambi LWRC lower (Stripped or complete). I haven't found one yet. The ATXS lower is the only one I'm aware of that you can buy stripped, and at over four Benjamins for a naked receiver, it's not cheap.