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Seating .223 bullets for AR15

sentry1

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Jul 7, 2012
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Madison, Alabama
I have a PSA 1:7, 16" barrel, midlength gas system. I'm using a small base Redding X-die to FL size my 1x fired cases, after which I'm trimming them to 1.740" (.02" under the max, per the X-die manual)

I'll be using Hornady 55 gr SXSP, and 75 gr HPBT. What length should I load these to? Do I use the max length that will fit in the magazine?

What can I do to tune the dimensions of the reloaded round for my AR?
 
Re: Seating .223 bullets for AR15

Sentry1,

2.260" max if you want to feed them through the magazine. I'd recommend 2.255" (at least) to give a little wiggle room and account for length variations in the bullets themselves. You just don't want the tips dragging on the front of the mag when feeding, so it's always wise to give them some breathing room.

Beyond that, any seating depth experimentation is most likely going to require single loading these, rather than feeding from the magazine. The 80s and 82s used for 600 yard matches are intended for this, and are not meant to be fed through the mags.
 
Re: Seating .223 bullets for AR15

Thanks for the input, Kevin.

As for the brass, should I just keep trimming/sizing to spec, or is there a preferred method for accurizing AR reloads?

Not that I'm going to run out and buy heaps of expensive gages and whatnot right away, but I'm curious as to if/how AR reloads might be customized to the specific chamber.
 
Re: Seating .223 bullets for AR15

Second the 2.255 coal. Thats what I use for mine and have no problems.
 
Re: Seating .223 bullets for AR15

I also ran mine at 2.255", they fit in all my various mags that length.
 
Re: Seating .223 bullets for AR15

not to keep repeating, but I load all different types of bullets and seat to 2.255, and have never had a problem feeding from the mags.
 
Re: Seating .223 bullets for AR15

I use this number for mag length ammo - it is pretty easy to remember
wink.gif


2.230"
 
Re: Seating .223 bullets for AR15

sentry1,

Reloading for an AR is getting into the deep end of the pool. It's advanced handloading, as is any form of reloading for gas operated Service Rifles. There's some things you'll need to be aware of, some things to avoid and some extra steps that MUST be taken when loading for these guns. Not to steer you away from it, as I do a tremendous amount of reloading for this type of rifle, but just to give you a fair warning that it takes a bit more attention to detail. Bolt guns are wonderfully forgiving, and there's just a lot of things that you can do "wrong" with them, and still get away with it. No such wiggle room for the ARs.

Fortunately, there's some pretty good sources for info on reloading for gas guns. One of the Sierra manuals has a section on "Reloading for Service Rifles" that will hopefully get you started on the right path. It's a pinned thread on either www.6mmBR.com or www.usriflesteams.com. This second site is also a very good resource, and there are specific forums for reloading for gas guns that you'll find a ton of info. Perhaps the best single source is Glen Zediker's book, "Handloading for Competition; Making the Target Bigger." Available through Sinclair's, Midway and the usual suspect, it covers precision handloading techniques specific to match ammunition. Glen is a long time competitive Service Rifle shooter, and a very large percentage of the book is geared specifically towards the ARs and the M1A rifles. Worth its weight in gold, and I recommend it strongly. Glen's got a bit of an eclectic writing style that some folks don't care for, but the info is priceless, and I've always found his stuff amusing.

My basic rules for loading for gas guns are;

1) Full Length size, always, without fail, ever. Small Base dies are even better, and will reduce the chances of problems to nearly nil.

2) Have, and use, a gage to set up your dies. Forget the standard bolt gun dimensions in re headspace, and MAKE SURE that you're setting the shoulders back by at least .003"-.004". The standard of .001"-.002" is fine for bolt guns, but it will get you into trouble with a gas gun. They're different animals , and they need to be treated very differently.

3) Keep the cases trimmed below SAAMI max length. Roughly .010" is standard, but if your die is asking for something more, that's okay too.

4) Make sure that you're using a powder that's compatible with your gas system. Gas guns have some very specific needs concerning port pressures and pressure curves. Ask around some knowledgable gas gun shooters, and you'll get a feel for this. This is especially important for M1s and M1As, as you can badly damage a gun even with loads that are developing perfectly safe pressures, well under maximum limits.

5) Seating depth and OAL is generally determined by mag length, and it's usually a set in stone figure. That, or you'll need to single load, as I mentioned. Not always a problem, depending on what you're doing.

6) Crimping. This seems to be a real fascination for some folks when reloading gas guns, and frankly, there's rarely any real need for it. That, and the fact that it generally complicates accuracy issues. I suggest you don't, unless there's a real and genuine need for it. Even then, remember that "less is more" and that this is very easily overdone. The bare minimum amount you can get away with, and let proper neck tension take care of the rest.

7) Use a chamber type gage, such as the L.E. Wilson (Dillon sells 'em) to ensure that all the rounds drop in freely, and fall back out just as easily. Not enough people use these gages, and that absence makes for a lot of easily avoidable problems out on the line. Use them; they're your friends.

I'm sure there's some others, but these are the basics that should get you going. Don't hesitate to ask questions, always glad to help.
 
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Re: Seating .223 bullets for AR15

One thing that caught my eye, and no one has mentioned it - your 1:7 twist may be too fast for the Hdy SXSP bullets. They have a very thin jacket & can come apart if spun too fast.

I've got a 1:9 twist and opted for the standard Hdy SP bullets for this reason. I've got some SXSPs for my .222, maybe I'll try a couple in the AR just to see what happens.

Have fun!
 
Re: Seating .223 bullets for AR15

The input has been very helpful, Kevin. Thank you! So, in response to your check list, here's where I think I am right now.

1) Full Length size, small base does: <span style="font-weight: bold">Check. RCBS Small Base X-die</span>

2) Have, and use, a gage to set up your dies. Forget the standard bolt gun dimensions in re headspace, and MAKE SURE that you're setting the shoulders back by at least .003"-.004".
<span style="font-weight: bold">I have the Hornady headspace gage, so bump the 1x fired cases back .003" from the post-firing dimension.
Isn't this taken care of during FL resizing? The instructions say to set the FL die up so it's bottomed against the shell holder at the top of the stroke. </span>

3) Keep the cases trimmed below SAAMI max length. Roughly .010" is standard, but if your die is asking for something more, that's okay too.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Check. Trimming to .02" under.</span>

4) Make sure that you're using a powder that's compatible with your gas system. Gas guns have some very specific needs concerning port pressures and pressure curves.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Was told AR-comp is good, but couldn't find it locally. Had CFE-223 suggested to me, and bought a pound of that.</span>

5) Seating depth and OAL is generally determined by mag length, and it's usually a set in stone figure. That, or you'll need to single load, as I mentioned. Not always a problem, depending on what you're doing.
<span style="font-weight: bold">2.255" OAL it is!</span>

6) Crimping. This seems to be a real fascination for some folks when reloading gas guns, and frankly, there's rarely any real need for it. That, and the fact that it generally complicates accuracy issues. I suggest you don't, unless there's a real and genuine need for it. Even then, remember that "less is more" and that this is very easily overdone. The bare minimum amount you can get away with, and let proper neck tension take care of the rest.
<span style="font-weight: bold">I set up my RCBS seating die following the instructions for just seating, sans crimping. I would notice some signs on the case neck if it was being crimped, correct? That said, I test seated a bullet, and after 20 solid whacks with a Frankford Arsenal bullet puller, it still didn't come out!</span>

7) Use a chamber type gage, such as the L.E. Wilson (Dillon sells 'em) to ensure that all the rounds drop in freely, and fall back out just as easily. Not enough people use these gages, and that absence makes for a lot of easily avoidable problems out on the line. Use them; they're your friends.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Will track down and acquire one of these doojiggers.</span>
 
Re: Seating .223 bullets for AR15

sentry1,

sounds like you're in business. As to the two remaining questions, yes, the F/L sizing takes care of the headspace, but you'll need the bump gage to verify what you've set it to. Remember, that same die can set headspace anything from far too little, to (in some instances) far too much. It's an adjustment that you're responsible for, and harder to set up in a gas gun than it is in a bolt gun.

And secondly, the powder choices are fine. This actually isn't nearly as much a problem with the ARs as it is with the M14 and (particularly) the M1. Varget, RL-15, N140, all good choices, as are several others.

You're good to go, but give a shout if you run into anything you're fuzzy on. We'll get you through it.
 
Re: Seating .223 bullets for AR15

Thanks for the heads up, I'll keep this in mind if I start getting rounds going all over the place.

I'll do work up loads of the 55gr SXSP and the 75gr BTHP and see how they compare.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steel-r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing that caught my eye, and no one has mentioned it - your 1:7 twist may be too fast for the Hdy SXSP bullets. They have a very thin jacket & can come apart if spun too fast.
</div></div>

Kevin,

Again, the guidance is greatly appreciated! I'll be annealing 50 cases tonight, and after I track down the threads you mentioned, hopefully I can get some loads done for testing this weekend.
 
Re: Seating .223 bullets for AR15

I seat all my 60-77gr bullet 2.25(almost 2.26) anything 55gr or less i seat it 2.20-2.24 my own reason is that seating smaller(shorter) bullet with 2.25 making litle too less tention on neck just because bullet to far out specialy bulet with tips(balistic tips,vmax,amax.etc).your only sinkin bullet 1/8" or less.and i got better round up this way.80-90gr 0.05/10 off land.i also found this set up more acccurate
 
Re: Seating .223 bullets for AR15

1x fired cases are ~1.460" +/- 0.0001" at the shoulder (using the Hornady, after running them up into the FL die (until the shellholder hits the bottom of the die) they're coming out ~1.450" +/- 0.0001".

So the shoulders are getting bumped back about 0.010" if I use the setup that's dictated in the RCBS instructions. Is this too much? Should I back the FL die off some?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevin Thomas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
2) MAKE SURE that you're setting the shoulders back by at least .003"-.004".</div></div>
 
Re: Seating .223 bullets for AR15

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevin Thomas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">sentry1,

And secondly, the powder choices are fine. This actually isn't nearly as much a problem with the ARs as it is with the M14 and (particularly) the M1. Varget, RL-15, N140, all good choices, as are several others.

</div></div>

Not bad advice, but I didnt notice the type of reloading that you are doing. Those powders are fantastic...if you are measuring, ie trickling or using a chargemaster type system. If you are planning on throwing your powder, stay away from those powders and go with a powder in the H335 or W748 type.
 
Re: Seating .223 bullets for AR15

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Munson</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevin Thomas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">sentry1,

And secondly, the powder choices are fine. This actually isn't nearly as much a problem with the ARs as it is with the M14 and (particularly) the M1. Varget, RL-15, N140, all good choices, as are several others.

</div></div>

Not bad advice, but I didnt notice the type of reloading that you are doing. Those powders are fantastic...if you are measuring, ie trickling or using a chargemaster type system. If you are planning on throwing your powder, stay away from those powders and go with a powder in the H335 or W748 type. </div></div>

Just from my experience, the H335 did not do well with the hornady match 75gr bthp's. It seemed that it was too fast of a burning powder. I started using BL-C(2) and had much better results. Ultimately I couldn't get the 75's to shoot out of my gun with the accuracy that I wanted and I tried the 69 gr SMK's and they shot very well. That's what I ended up going with, but hey, if you can get the 75's more power to you. Good luck and happy shooting!
 
Re: Seating .223 bullets for AR15

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sentry1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1x fired cases are ~1.460" +/- 0.0001" at the shoulder (using the Hornady, after running them up into the FL die (until the shellholder hits the bottom of the die) they're coming out ~1.450" +/- 0.0001".

So the shoulders are getting bumped back about 0.010" if I use the setup that's dictated in the RCBS instructions. Is this too much? Should I back the FL die off some?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevin Thomas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
2) MAKE SURE that you're setting the shoulders back by at least .003"-.004".</div></div></div></div>

Way too much. When I bump .004", I get incipient case head separations within 4-5 firings. I bump .002", though some people will say that's too little for gassers. I strongly advise against bumping more than .003".

For bullet seating, most bullets can be seated to mag length. I seat all AR bullets to mag length as long as the bullet still has full neck contact. For pretty much every .224 bullet above 55gr, mag length will seat the bullets deep enough to contact the full neck. Some 55gr bullets will need to be seated deeper to have full neck contact.

ETA: I also hate the chamber-type gauges. Guns require different amounts of bump due to variances in chamber size. One of my gassers requires a bump to 1.464", the other requires 1.460".
 
Re: Seating .223 bullets for AR15

I crimp all auto loaders with a Lee Factory Crimp Die, it may not be needed but its cheap insurance.
 
Re: Seating .223 bullets for AR15

LOTS of great info here. Maybe with some experimentation I'll be able to chime in. First AR so nothing new to add as yet. Thanks all!
 
Re: Seating .223 bullets for AR15

Sentry1,

Sorry for the delay here. If you're bumping shoulders back by .010", that's probably about twice what you really need. I'd say the ideal here is about .004" to .006" at the max.

As for the powders I suggested, specifically the Varget, RL-15 and N140, don't sweat using them from a measure; they all do just fine. While some of the ball powders (748, 335, etc) do run through a measure a bit better than do extruded tubulars, you have to remember that they are double-based powders. This almost always means that they will be significantly more temperature sensitive than a single based powder. RL-15 is also an extruded tubular, but it too is a double-based powder. It has a followoing among competitive shooters, but I'd say there's probably more of us shooting Varget than RL-15. Whichever you choose, rememeber that a well balanced load will give you more latitude in terms of charge weight than a well run measure will throw. Don't sweat it, and don't gt too focused in on how precisely a ball powder flows through a measure; there's other factors to consider when selecting a powder.
 
Re: Seating .223 bullets for AR15

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Munson</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevin Thomas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">sentry1,

And secondly, the powder choices are fine. This actually isn't nearly as much a problem with the ARs as it is with the M14 and (particularly) the M1. Varget, RL-15, N140, all good choices, as are several others.

</div></div>

Not bad advice, but I didnt notice the type of reloading that you are doing. Those powders are fantastic...if you are measuring, ie trickling or using a chargemaster type system. If you are planning on throwing your powder, stay away from those powders and go with a powder in the H335 or W748 type. </div></div>

RL15 and N140 produce outstanding repeatability in powder measures. Varget less so but acceptable for 200-600 yard ammo. Add H4895 to this list as well.

Changing to a ball powder is by no means a necessity for using a powder measure.
 
Re: Seating .223 bullets for AR15

What a *%^ing pain! It took me FOREVER, but I finally dialed in my FL sizer to bump back to just 1.457". I almost chucked the damn die out the window and ordered a micrometer die... but then I realized how not-rich I am.

So, I'm now bumping 0.003" from my fire formed length. Thanks for the advice guys. On to load development!