.300 Blackout

[hydro556]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RotARy15</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hydro556</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RotARy15</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hydro556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Pretty interesting video I saw from Travis Haley shooting one of the Spikes Kompressor's in 300Blk. Dude was hitting at 750 with a T1. It was impressive. </div></div>

Hitting at 750 is different from killing at 750. I wouldn't use anything coming from a 15 with confidence at that range. </div></div>

I dont blame you. How is that relevant to my post? </div></div>

Thought you were entering the conversation about rounds that were effective at longer ranges. Never mind my comment. </div></div>

No, I was really more focused on the fact that he was hitting at 750 with Blk and a T1. Unless they edited out 50 rounds to show a couple hits (which is certainly possible I suppose) that is pretty impressive shooting.

 

[WVHunter1s1k]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hydro556</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fcsurvivor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The problem I have with the 6.8 is what brought me to the .300. The 6.8 is getting some hype right now, but what happens in two years or five years or whatever when something new comes that everyone decides is better than the 6.8 and suddenly no more 6.8 brass or ammo? The 6.8 was formed from the .30 Remington cartridge, a cartridge that has been obsolete for more than 30 years. It is even tough to get brass for a .30 Remington if you still own one. So what then? You go with whatever is the flavor of the day and throw your 6.8 barrel, mags and bolt in the trash?
Also even if you can get 6.8 brass right now it isn't cheap. If you shoot comp or hunt and start loosing brass that can get expensive real quick. As I stated I have formed over 150 Blackout cases so far and I have not found it to be a big deal, and I will always have 5.56 brass to form it from.
Everything I have seen so far say it will work for me and what I expect of it.
Thanks for all the good info. </div></div>

The 6.8 has grown and been growing since 2006 when the smarter guys picked it up from remy and made it to what it should be. It did come from the .30rem and rem should have stuck with the .30RAR since it actually has the power to sling a .30 cal bullet.

2013 will be a good year for the 6.8 with Federal dedicating a ammo line to it which hasn't been done for other calibers mentioned. That means brass and ammo will be cheaper as you will see American Eagle 6.8. You can bet it isn't going anywhere. While the 300BO is a cool round and has some good things going for it, it just doesn't have the power or range when compared, in any type of setup. I really don't see the use for it unless you are shooting subs with a can, there are much better options out there. </div></div>

I pretty much disagree with you.

The ability to reliably shoot supersonic rounds and subsonic rounds, both suppressed and unsupressed is very handy for a lot of folks.

Then sprinkle in the fact that you are selecting from a huge universe of 308 projectiles, can use all your existing/plentiful AR mags and accessories and there is a ton to like about the Blk.

It brings something to the table that the 556 wont do, or any other round of which I am aware. Unique and versatile when mixed with reasonably priced is a very desirable combination of factors.

With the 6.8, while I think it is a fine round, what does it do that would compel me to not use a 556 or 762 instead?

Know what I mean? So the 6.8 is superior to 556 at extended range, right? Well, why would I be inclined to purchase or build a 6.8, buy the expensive ammo and start a magazine collection when I could just grab an AR10 instead?

That is what makes the Blk so interesting to me. It brings its own attributes to the table that I cannot easily get elsewhere. Then all the logistical and economic issues combine to make it super interesting. At least to me. Like everything else, it isnt perfect, but it offers more than most in my opinion. </div></div>
Thought, I'd posted on this forum before?>>>HUUMM??!

Let's see; It takes you 2 rifles to come close or better the 6.8. Interesting? The 300 BO would make it 2.5 Just the upper for the 300. It's your money.

Yes, the .308 has allot of bullet selection. The 6.8/.270 isn't all that bad. (Excluding; customs, Plus, AP Rounds - LE/MIL Only)usable bullets range from 85gr-140gr.
Which reminds me...I wonder how many of those hundreds of .308 bullet selections expand at 300 BO velocities?

Expensive ammo?? Have you price hunting/premium .308 & 5.56 lately? Or are we talking about comparing 6.8 ammo to Eastern Bloc Mil surplus? 6.8 Plinking ammo is coming next year. Eh, currently Rem/UMC and S&B plinkers runs around $15 a box. SSA runs about.79-.80 per round in bulk.
Mags CPDs & ASCs run about $12-14 each. If your going to pay $1000 for a rifle. I don't think a $12 magazine is going to put you in hock.


Oh, 346ci forgot to mention; The Federal lines of ammo is at Lake City(around 150 million 6.8 rounds a year). Plus, Tula is coming out in 2013 too. Maybe others? So there is your cheap ammo.

Yep, the 6.8 future does look pretty bright.

But, yes, the 300 does shoot subs & a can quieter than the 6.8. So, it does do that better. Although, the 6.8 can shoot subs & a can.
_______

Now, back to our regularly scheduled OP>
It just depends on you uses for it.
AS you mentioned; Urban CQB. Yeah, the 300 BO will do fine for that. Better than the 5.56.

 

[wfjames22]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TGagnon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This entire thread reads like barfcom. </div></div>

Yuup

 

[rusty815]

Re: .300 Blackout

I like the idea of the 300BO, I got to shoot it once at an uncle's ranch in Arizona and think it would make a good plinking round, only problem is I live in Kommiefornia and cant get a can, so the usefulness of the 300BO is no more. I just recently got a 6.8 and can understand why people say its better, ballistically the 6.8 is far better, there is no question about that, but the 300BO isn't trying to be ballistically superior, its trying to be versatile.

With that said, I think everyone can benefit from having rifles chambered in both the 300BO and 6.8 in their safe.

 

[hydro556]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rusty815</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like the idea of the 300BO, I got to shoot it once at an uncle's ranch in Arizona and think it would make a good plinking round, only problem is I live in Kommiefornia and cant get a can, so the usefulness of the 300BO is no more. I just recently got a 6.8 and can understand why people say its better, ballistically the 6.8 is far better, there is no question about that, but the 300BO isn't trying to be ballistically superior, its trying to be versatile.

With that said, I think everyone can benefit from having rifles chambered in both the 300BO and 6.8 in their safe. </div></div>

This is likely a good answer.

Shooting guns is fun. More variety equals more fun, other than stocking all the ammo. Whatever, I guess.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2013 will be a good year for the 6.8 with Federal dedicating a ammo line to it which hasn't been done for other calibers mentioned. That means brass and ammo will be cheaper as you will see American Eagle 6.8. You can bet it isn't going anywhere. While the 300BO is a cool round and has some good things going for it, it just doesn't have the power or range when compared, in any type of setup. I really don't see the use for it unless you are shooting subs with a can, there are much better options out there. </div></div>

The 6.8 max point blank range (+- 2.5 inches) of SSA Barnes 95 T-TSX "Tactical" loading (over-SAAMI pressure) is only 34 yards more than 300 BLK Barnes 110 grain.

If you use 6.8 ammunition that is not over-pressure like the SSA 110 grain Pro-Hunter, then the range advantage shrinks to 17 yards.

If you wanted to, you could make over-pressure 300 BLK ammunition and shrink the difference even more.

Federal making 6.8 ammunition will not lower the cost any more than Federal making 10mm ammunition has lowered the cost of 10mm. 6.8 is always going to cost much more than 300 BLK because it uses more brass. Brass is a commodity and you cannot lower the price of a commodity much with volume when the company already buys (literally) tons of it.

30 caliber pulled bullets are very cheap, and there are people hand-loading 300 BLK for unbelievably low costs. You can even buy ready to load cases for 11 cents each.

 

[Low Sioux]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would just use the 8 inch at 300 yards. No reason to change to an SPR upper.</div></div>

So what exactly is the MV of the 110 Barnes from an 8" barrel?

 

[RotARy15]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Low Sioux</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would just use the 8 inch at 300 yards. No reason to change to an SPR upper.</div></div>

So what exactly is the MV of the 110 Barnes from an 8" barrel? </div></div>

Ballpark of 2050 I believe.

 

[346ci]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rusty815</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like the idea of the 300BO, I got to shoot it once at an uncle's ranch in Arizona and think it would make a good plinking round, only problem is I live in Kommiefornia and cant get a can, so the usefulness of the 300BO is no more. I just recently got a 6.8 and can understand why people say its better, ballistically the 6.8 is far better, there is no question about that, but the 300BO isn't trying to be ballistically superior, its trying to be versatile.

With that said, I think everyone can benefit from having rifles chambered in both the 300BO and 6.8 in their safe. </div></div>

I agree and also think the BO has merits, just not no where near what others think it does.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Low Sioux</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would just use the 8 inch at 300 yards. No reason to change to an SPR upper.</div></div>

So what exactly is the MV of the 110 Barnes from an 8" barrel? </div></div>

http://www.300aacblackout.com/resources/300-BLK.pdf

2051 fps.

 

[bustin]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: country888</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the blkout is a great CQB round. Hit very hard with subs & supers out to 300yrds. With the right ammo its also very accurate. </div></div>
how far do you have to hold over the steel to hit it at 300yds?

 

[rsilvers]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bustin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: country888</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the blkout is a great CQB round. Hit very hard with subs & supers out to 300yrds. With the right ammo its also very accurate. </div></div>
how far do you have to hold over the steel to hit it at 300yds? </div></div>

About 13 inches for a center hit (3 inches more than the SSA 95 grain TSX 6.8 "Tactical" load).

 

[bustin]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bustin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: country888</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the blkout is a great CQB round. Hit very hard with subs & supers out to 300yrds. With the right ammo its also very accurate. </div></div>
how far do you have to hold over the steel to hit it at 300yds? </div></div>

About 13 inches for a center hit (3 inches more than the SSA 95 grain TSX 6.8 "Tactical" load). </div></div>
If zeroed at 100 yds, you aim 13" high to hit a steel at 300yds with what bullet?
I use a 5.56 with cheap 55grfmjs to shoot 3 gun.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: .300 Blackout

200 yard zero is best.

If you do a 200 yard zero, you can shoot from 0 to 230 yards with no compensation or sight adjustment. This is the theory of max point blank range.

So in my comparison I had the 6.8 and 300 BLK both zeroed at 200 yards. The bullet I used for 300 BLK was the Barnes 110 black tip.

Note that you don't literally have to shoot at 200 yards to zero the rifle. You can just sight in to be 3 inches high at 100.

 

[ddavis]

Re: .300 Blackout

Why do people get so butt-hurt over cartridges?

I have the 300 BLK (and formerly had a 300 Whisper) because it allows me to use cheap reloading components to launch an adequate bullet to kill an animal at ordinary hunting ranges, out of a short barrel.

Would a 6.8 be better out of a 9" barrel? Possibly, but I have not crunched the numbers. But if it is only marginally better, why not go with a cartridge that allows me to shoot more because it is much cheaper? I don't get mad when I lose brass. In fact, sometimes I just leave it laying. I can order 1000 pieces for almost what it costs to get surplus 5.56 brass.

The BDC reticle in my 1-4x scope gets me out to 350 yards. I would have no problem with launching 110 grain bullets at pigs at that range. THAT's why I have a 300 BLK. Your mileage may vary.

 

[bustin]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body">200 yard zero is best.

If you do a 200 yard zero, you can shoot from 0 to 230 yards with no compensation or sight adjustment. This is the theory of max point blank range.

So in my comparison I had the 6.8 and 300 BLK both zeroed at 200 yards. The bullet I used for 300 BLK was the Barnes 110 black tip.

Note that you don't literally have to shoot at 200 yards to zero the rifle. You can just sight in to be 3 inches high at 100. </div></div>
So you are using bullets that cost $33/50 in the blk and comparing them to bullets that cost $21/100 in the 6.8 and 12/100 in a 5.56. OK just so we have that clear.
If you Z a 300blk at 200yds you still have to aim 13" over the target at 300yds to shoot it with bullets that cost $32/50. How high must you aim over at 300yds if using a comparable $21/100 bullet?
I don't think I am going to shoot a 400 ct match with bullets that cost $35/50 ...that's $280 for bullets alone. Seems to me to be a lot cheaper to shoot a 5.56. 500 rounds of crappy wolf ammo is $89 and I don't have to aim as high over a 300yd target to hit it.

 

[RotARy15]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bustin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body">200 yard zero is best.

If you do a 200 yard zero, you can shoot from 0 to 230 yards with no compensation or sight adjustment. This is the theory of max point blank range.

So in my comparison I had the 6.8 and 300 BLK both zeroed at 200 yards. The bullet I used for 300 BLK was the Barnes 110 black tip.

Note that you don't literally have to shoot at 200 yards to zero the rifle. You can just sight in to be 3 inches high at 100. </div></div>
So you are using bullets that cost $33/50 in the blk and comparing them to bullets that cost $21/100 in the 6.8 and 12/100 in a 5.56. OK just so we have that clear.
If you Z a 300blk at 200yds you still have to aim 13" over the target at 300yds to shoot it with bullets that cost $32/50. How high must you aim over at 300yds if using a comparable $21/100 bullet?
I don't think I am going to shoot a 400 ct match with bullets that cost $35/50 ...that's $280 for bullets alone. Seems to me to be a lot cheaper to shoot a 5.56. 500 rounds of crappy wolf ammo is $89 and I don't have to aim as high over a 300yd target to hit it. </div></div>

The Barnes black tip isn't the only 110 grain you can shoot. Try Vmax, 150 FMJ, pulled 147 is around 13/100. Barnes black tip is the best of the best for super 300blk. The best of the best for other calibers is the same if not more.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bustin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So you are using bullets that cost $33/50 in the blk and comparing them to bullets that cost $21/100 in the 6.8 and 12/100 in a 5.56. OK just so we have that clear. </div></div>

I just picked that bullet because it was the best 300 BLK bullet and I was comparing it to the best 6.8 bullet.

The 6.8 bullets are $32 per 50, by the way:

http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=BX27751

The $10.36 per box 300 BLK UMC ammunition will drop an additional 1.4 inches at 300 yards - so you can use that number if you prefer and compare it to the lowest price 6.8 - which by the way, is 64% more expensive and drops more.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't have to aim as high over a 300yd target to hit it. </div></div>

As I said, 300 BLK is only 3 inches more drop at 300 than the 6.8 "tactical" 95 grain load. And 6.8 practice ammunition is 64% more expensive.

 

[346ci]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bustin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body">200 yard zero is best.

If you do a 200 yard zero, you can shoot from 0 to 230 yards with no compensation or sight adjustment. This is the theory of max point blank range.

So in my comparison I had the 6.8 and 300 BLK both zeroed at 200 yards. The bullet I used for 300 BLK was the Barnes 110 black tip.

Note that you don't literally have to shoot at 200 yards to zero the rifle. You can just sight in to be 3 inches high at 100. </div></div>
So you are using bullets that cost $33/50 in the blk and comparing them to bullets that cost $21/100 in the 6.8 and 12/100 in a 5.56. OK just so we have that clear.
If you Z a 300blk at 200yds you still have to aim 13" over the target at 300yds to shoot it with bullets that cost $32/50. How high must you aim over at 300yds if using a comparable $21/100 bullet?
I don't think I am going to shoot a 400 ct match with bullets that cost $35/50 ...that's $280 for bullets alone. Seems to me to be a lot cheaper to shoot a 5.56. 500 rounds of crappy wolf ammo is $89 and I don't have to aim as high over a 300yd target to hit it. </div></div>

You are arguing with a brick wall brother. The BO is a poor preformer past 200yds, no way around it, big ass bullet, tiny case. I would not even try to claim the more powerful 6.8 would be a good choice for 500yds but yet the BO seems to be, LOL.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are arguing with a brick wall brother. The BO is a poor preformer past 200yds, no way around it, big ass bullet, tiny case.</div></div>

That is demonstrably false. I have explained why 300 BLK is able to perform so well with a small case - very high efficiency.

These are 300 yard impacts and have more than 50 caliber expansion and 20 and 24 inches of penetration - that is great performance. In fact, it is so amazing that some people find it hard to believe.

For max point blank range, 6.8 is 1.1x 300 BLK.
For energy at distance, 6.8 also has 1.1x the range.
For distance to known drop, 6.8 has 1.07x the range.

If that impresses you, then by all means, pay 64% more for the lowest-priced ammunition vs 300 BLK.

 

[country888]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bustin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: country888</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the blkout is a great CQB round. Hit very hard with subs & supers out to 300yrds. With the right ammo its also very accurate. </div></div>
how far do you have to hold over the steel to hit it at 300yds? </div></div>

With 208gn subs with 100yd zero it takes me 9 mil to get to 300yrd.
With 110gn vmax supers, 100yd zero it takes me 2.3 mils to get to 300yrds.

Im not going to argue the point of better rounds, but the blkout hits hard for what it was intended for. I own 2 blkout uppers, a 6.5 grendel, and a 5.56 upper. All have their place for a intended purpose. But the blkout is great to shoot out to 300yrds. I would much rather have the blkout for CQB than a 5.56. My 12 year old daughter loves to shoot my blkout, low recoil, no noise with suppressor, & a blast to shoot! Will my grendel shoot farther, hell yes, but I still have my blkout & will keep it also!

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: .300 Blackout

Total possible energy at the muzzle is determined by case size. Potential energy downrange is determined by how efficient the bullet remains in flight.

What a .300 AAC/Whisper really needs to be compared to is a .45. A naturally subsonic caliber. Except that at low speeds, the 240 gr. .30 cal bullet is way more efficient than the round nose 230 gr. .45 cal bullet. So, if the two left their respective barrels at an equal velocity, the .30 is going to hit way harder because it retains it's speed.

Stepping up to the 5.56 and what you can run through an AR, you see the 5.56 (55, 62 75/77 gr. bullets) is going to produce more energy all the way out to 300 because it started at almost 1300. The .300 doesn't lose it as quickly as the 5.56 but by 300 yds., it's still 200 ft. lbs lower.

The 6.5G and 6.8 SPC both have almost exactly 20% more power capacity. The kicker here is you move up in power because those cases with their larger diameters can better use that power. With optimal weight bullets and published speeds, these cases each produce about 1800-1850 ft. lbs. of energy just forward of the muzzle.

To summarize, the .300 AAC/WH puts out about 560 at the muzzle. The 5.56 1270#, the 6.5G/6.8SPC around 1850# At the muzzle, it's case size to bullet size and efficiency. Each calibers ratios don't change positions at all out to 300yds. or meters.

But, I will go on to say that each has a purpose. The .300 AAC/WH is an excellent choice for silenced rounds because it's sub-sonic. The 5.56 has enough power to kill all kinds of things and it's very standardized. The 6.5G/6.8SPC provide more power than the 5.56 by almost half again as much. The 6.5G can get long range bullets stuffed in it without sacrificing case capacity. It works great for long range. But, if I needed more rounds, not specialized rounds, I'd stick with the 5.56.

 

[RotARy15]

Re: .300 Blackout

I tend to view Blackout's subsonic/suppressed capabilities as a nice option for a specialized use outside of its normal and primary objective.

I hold the belief that its primary objective is to be effective from a short barreled rifle in super sonic form.

For this reason alone, I refuse to compare it to 45ACP.

The more I learn about 6.8 the less I care for it. The price and work needed to refit an AR to 6.8 turns me off. What little I learned about 6.5G a while ago gave me the impression it was for a task I don't partake in.

For me, Blackout is a sub 200 yard SBR with the ability to have a measurable effect on a 350 yard target should I manage to hit it. If the time permits it, I would still switch to a designated platform for the task at hand. I will NEVER own a 16" Blackout. I seems useless to me.

My job doesn't involve a gun, so my only desired platform for fighting is a sub 200 yard weapon that suppresses well and delivers good results from a short package. Blackout wins.

I also have overlapping setups so I'm not concerned with pushing the absolute limits of any cartridge. I'm building an 8.2" Blackout to be suppressed for targets under 200. I will follow that up with an 18" SPR upper in 5.56, suppressed, for targets 100-400. And I've got a bolt gun in 308, suppressed, for targets 300-1000.

 

[346ci]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Total possible energy at the muzzle is determined by case size. Potential energy downrange is determined by how efficient the bullet remains in flight.

What a .300 AAC/Whisper really needs to be compared to is a .45. A naturally subsonic caliber. Except that at low speeds, the 240 gr. .30 cal bullet is way more efficient than the round nose 230 gr. .45 cal bullet. So, if the two left their respective barrels at an equal velocity, the .30 is going to hit way harder because it retains it's speed.

Stepping up to the 5.56 and what you can run through an AR, you see the 5.56 (55, 62 75/77 gr. bullets) is going to produce more energy all the way out to 300 because it started at almost 1300. The .300 doesn't lose it as quickly as the 5.56 but by 300 yds., it's still 200 ft. lbs lower.

The 6.5G and 6.8 SPC both have almost exactly 20% more power capacity. The kicker here is you move up in power because those cases with their larger diameters can better use that power. With optimal weight bullets and published speeds, these cases each produce about 1800-1850 ft. lbs. of energy just forward of the muzzle.

To summarize, the .300 AAC/WH puts out about 560 at the muzzle. The 5.56 1270#, the 6.5G/6.8SPC around 1850# At the muzzle, it's case size to bullet size and efficiency. Each calibers ratios don't change positions at all out to 300yds. or meters.

But, I will go on to say that each has a purpose. The .300 AAC/WH is an excellent choice for silenced rounds because it's sub-sonic. The 5.56 has enough power to kill all kinds of things and it's very standardized. The 6.5G/6.8SPC provide more power than the 5.56 by almost half again as much. The 6.5G can get long range bullets stuffed in it without sacrificing case capacity. It works great for long range. But, if I needed more rounds, not specialized rounds, I'd stick with the 5.56. </div></div>

Great use of common sense and logic. I guess when aac copied JD's idea, they though they could defy physics in the process. The ignorance is amazing.

 

[ddavis]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RotARy15</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I tend to view Blackout's subsonic/suppressed capabilities as a nice option for a specialized use outside of its normal and primary objective.

I hold the belief that its primary objective is to be effective from a short barreled rifle in super sonic form.

For this reason alone, I refuse to compare it to 45ACP.

The more I learn about 6.8 the less I care for it. The price and work needed to refit an AR to 6.8 turns me off. What little I learned about 6.5G a while ago gave me the impression it was for a task I don't partake in.

For me, Blackout is a sub 200 yard SBR with the ability to have a measurable effect on a 350 yard target should I manage to hit it. If the time permits it, I would still switch to a designated platform for the task at hand. I will NEVER own a 16" Blackout. I seems useless to me.

My job doesn't involve a gun, so my only desired platform for fighting is a sub 200 yard weapon that suppresses well and delivers good results from a short package. Blackout wins.

I also have overlapping setups so I'm not concerned with pushing the absolute limits of any cartridge. I'm building an 8.2" Blackout to be suppressed for targets under 200. I will follow that up with an 18" SPR upper in 5.56, suppressed, for targets 100-400. And I've got a bolt gun in 308, suppressed, for targets 300-1000. </div></div>

Well written and I agree with you. With more barrel length, there are better options. With a short barrel, the 300 BLK is far better than pistol cartridges, but still more efficient than more overbore rifle cartridges. If you are wanting a 8-10" AR15 for hunting, it is a great choice, AND it is cheap to shoot. As barrel length increases, the BLK starts to lose ground to the others, but still has its purposes.

 

[AMG04]

Re: .300 Blackout

I run the 110gr Barnes solid mentioned by RSilvers.

Out of a 10" Noveske I get a muzzle velocity of 2200fps, 1182ft-lb of energy. At 100 yards there is 919ft-lbs of energy whereas, my 65 gr SGK load out of my 16" AR only has 870ft-lbs at 100 yards. Bergers ballistic program shows the BLKs energy at 300 yards to be 540ft-lbs compared to 530ft-lbs for the 65gr 5.56rnd.

At 300 yards it becomes a wash... But most of my hunting happens between 25 and 200 yards, in tight quarters of a blind, or hoping in and out of the truck/jeep. Having a 10" rifle that weighs 5lbs is much easier to maneuver while hunting. Collapse the stock and it will even fit in my hunting pack...

For its intended purpose (close range killing in a compact form) the .300 BLK is a great package. I have been very pleased with the results.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ddavis</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As barrel length increases, the BLK starts to lose ground to the others, but still has its purposes. </div></div>

Most of us have 16 inch barrels, and the 300 BLK's sweet spot is 16 inches. From a 16 inch barrel it has as much energy as 5.56mm from a 24 inch barrel. 300 BLK has more energy than 5.56mm at all barrel lengths - even in a 24 inch barrel.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Total possible energy at the muzzle is determined by case size...

Stepping up to the 5.56 and what you can run through an AR, you see the 5.56 (55, 62 75/77 gr. bullets) is going to produce more energy all the way out to 300 because it started at almost 1300. The .300 doesn't lose it as quickly as the 5.56 but by 300 yds., it's still 200 ft. lbs lower.
</div></div>

Great use of common sense and logic. I guess when aac copied JD's idea, they though they could defy physics in the process. The ignorance is amazing. </div></div>

Except that he is completely incorrect.

Energy potential may be powder capacity, but the actual energy reached is also based on efficiency, and 300 BLK is far more efficient than the others.

300 BLK is also not 200 ft-lbs lower in energy at 300 yards than 5.56mm. In fact, several 300 BLK loads are more energy at 300 yards than many popular 6.8 loads.


The 300 BLK 3-gun load that Atlanta Arms made was 856 ft-lbs at 300 yards, and was below SAAMI max pressure.

The 6.8 SSA 95 T-TSX "tactical" (over pressure) is 770 ft-lbs at 300 yards.

300 BLK 155 grain that Travis used - 734 ft-lbs at 300 yards.

The SSA Barnes 85 TSX is 685 ft-lbs at 300 yards.

5.56mm M4 77 grain Mk-262 is 685 ft-lbs at 300 yards.

5.56mm M855 is 613 ft-lbs at 300 yards.

 

[lwrkeysfisher]

Re: .300 Blackout

Rslivers, Its always interesting to see your comparisons. We've done this drill before and we both know there are several 6.8 loads that retain approx 1000 lbs of energy at 300yds & one that maintains 1K out to 400yds.

 

[rescueswimmer]

Re: .300 Blackout

Rsilvers Can you shoot me a pm with an email address, I had a question about 300blk and the ACR.

TY

 

[rsilvers]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lwrkeysfisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rslivers, Its always interesting to see your comparisons. We've done this drill before and we both know there are several 6.8 loads that retain approx 1000 lbs of energy at 300yds & one that maintains 1K out to 400yds. </div></div>

The Hornady 120 SST is the one I have data for - 978 at 300 yards. Not sure about the Berger load.

 

[rusty815]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Total possible energy at the muzzle is determined by case size...

Stepping up to the 5.56 and what you can run through an AR, you see the 5.56 (55, 62 75/77 gr. bullets) is going to produce more energy all the way out to 300 because it started at almost 1300. The .300 doesn't lose it as quickly as the 5.56 but by 300 yds., it's still 200 ft. lbs lower.
</div></div>

Great use of common sense and logic. I guess when aac copied JD's idea, they though they could defy physics in the process. The ignorance is amazing. </div></div>

Except that he is completely incorrect.

Energy potential may be powder capacity, but the actual energy reached is also based on efficiency, and 300 BLK is far more efficient than the others.

300 BLK is also not 200 ft-lbs lower in energy at 300 yards than 5.56mm. In fact, several 300 BLK loads are more energy at 300 yards than many popular 6.8 loads.


The 300 BLK 3-gun load that Atlanta Arms made was 856 ft-lbs at 300 yards, and was below SAAMI max pressure.

The 6.8 SSA 95 T-TSX "tactical" (over pressure) is 770 ft-lbs at 300 yards.

300 BLK 155 grain that Travis used - 734 ft-lbs at 300 yards.

The SSA Barnes 85 TSX is 685 ft-lbs at 300 yards.

5.56mm M4 77 grain Mk-262 is 685 ft-lbs at 300 yards.

5.56mm M855 is 613 ft-lbs at 300 yards.



</div></div>

I don't usually get involved in "discussions" like this, but I felt I had to correct you on your numbers

the 95gr. Tactical load (please stop referring to it as an overpressure load, its a spec II load, which when used in a spec II chamber is not overpressure and perfectly safe) with the velocity given by SSA has 820ft/lbs of energy at 300 yards

the 85gr. tactical load has 780ft/lbs of energy at 300 yards

the 125gr. load sold by Atlantic arms is impressive, and if you go by Nosler's BC, it does indeed have over 800ft/lbs at 300 yards, but going by its real world BC, its energy is closer to around 740ft/lbs, Nosler tends to overinflate their BC's.

I already went over the merits of the 300BO, but trying to prove that it is somehow ballistically superior to other intermediate cartridges is absurd. It does decent, but the other cartridges are clearly better ballistically.

 

[rusty815]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lwrkeysfisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rslivers, Its always interesting to see your comparisons. We've done this drill before and we both know there are several 6.8 loads that retain approx 1000 lbs of energy at 300yds & one that maintains 1K out to 400yds. </div></div>

The Hornady 120 SST is the one I have data for - 978 at 300 yards. Not sure about the Berger load. </div></div>

The Berger 140gr. load, with the listed MV of 2401fps, has about 1170ft/lbs of energy at 300yds, its advertised as retaining 500ft/lbs at 800yds and is supersonic past 1000yds, which I find impressive from an intermediate cartridge.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Total possible energy at the muzzle is determined by case size...

Stepping up to the 5.56 and what you can run through an AR, you see the 5.56 (55, 62 75/77 gr. bullets) is going to produce more energy all the way out to 300 because it started at almost 1300. The .300 doesn't lose it as quickly as the 5.56 but by 300 yds., it's still 200 ft. lbs lower.
</div></div>

Great use of common sense and logic. I guess when aac copied JD's idea, they though they could defy physics in the process. The ignorance is amazing. </div></div>

Except that he is completely incorrect.

Energy potential may be powder capacity, but the actual energy reached is also based on efficiency, and 300 BLK is far more efficient than the others.

300 BLK is also not 200 ft-lbs lower in energy at 300 yards than 5.56mm. In fact, several 300 BLK loads are more energy at 300 yards than many popular 6.8 loads.


The 300 BLK 3-gun load that Atlanta Arms made was 856 ft-lbs at 300 yards, and was below SAAMI max pressure.

The 6.8 SSA 95 T-TSX "tactical" (over pressure) is 770 ft-lbs at 300 yards.

300 BLK 155 grain that Travis used - 734 ft-lbs at 300 yards.

The SSA Barnes 85 TSX is 685 ft-lbs at 300 yards.

5.56mm M4 77 grain Mk-262 is 685 ft-lbs at 300 yards.

5.56mm M855 is 613 ft-lbs at 300 yards.



</div></div>

I'm not saying the .300 BLK isn't efficient. It is. Maybe you aren't giving enough credit to the 6.5 or 6.8.

What are the loads you are using? What if the cartridge (and rifle) specs were optimized.
.300- 240 gr. SMK @ 1050 to keep it subsonic. It doesn't go much above that.
5.56- 55 gr. @ 3250, 62 gr. @ 3100 and 75/77 gr. @ 2950 (long barrel) 2690 (short barrel)
The numbers I gave came off of loads I've worked with. And verified the velocities. So, All I have to do is run the numbers on most any computer/calculator to get the energies (and don't forget drops...one of the 5.56's main attributes)

FWIW, this really is an excellent discussion of what is out there to use. We see some tweaks here and there and yes the .300 could take off.

I still boil it down to what you want to do with it. I don't see the .300 blk as a viable long range alternative. The 5.56, 6.5 and 6.8 are all better mid-range cartridges. If they are good at midrange, they have plenty of kill in them within 200m. The only one that extends is the 6.5G. When and only WHEN it has a high BC bullet. But, those bullets don't make a game changer over the 6.8 at medium range.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rusty815</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the 95gr. Tactical load (please stop referring to it as an overpressure load, its a spec II load, which when used in a spec II chamber is not overpressure</div></div>

They are 58,000 psi in an SPC-II chamber. That is over pressure. I am not saying it is unsafe - just that it is not correct to compare it to a normal pressure load in other cartridges.

If you want to make special hot 58,000 psi loads in 300 BLK, for example, one can do that.

The Berger 140 load is loaded to longer than max OAL and requires special 6.8 magazines. Again, one can load 300 BLK to longer than max OAL if desired, but I would not include it in any comparison chart.

 

[346ci]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rusty815</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the 95gr. Tactical load (please stop referring to it as an overpressure load, its a spec II load, which when used in a spec II chamber is not overpressure</div></div>

They are 58,000 psi in an SPC-II chamber. That is over pressure. I am not saying it is unsafe - just that it is not correct to compare it to a normal pressure load in other cartridges.

If you want to make special hot 58,000 psi loads in 300 BLK, for example, one can do that. </div></div>

Those numbers are called normal SPCII pressures. You would think after getting kicked off two forums for such antics, you would stop spewing that shit.

For those who want a real world test and enough power to make a 300yd shot, here is a 6.8 at 309yds on a deer. http://68forums.com/forums/showthread.php?33604-309-yard-95ttsx-recovered

 

[rsilvers]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those numbers are called normal pressures. </div></div>

SPC-II is a chamber with a longer throat that will drop pressure by 1000 - 1500 psi. Some also advocate loading to higher pressure and longer than max OAL. Whether those features should be included in a future SPC-II standard is a matter of opinion as nothing has been decided on yet. There have been a few attempts to make it a standard but it was not entertained by SAAMI.

 

[MBC223]

Re: .300 Blackout

Why does one have to be better than the other? They both have their perks. Get wich one works for you. This sounds like remmy guys saying savages are shit and savage guys saying factory remmys won't shoot. Move on.
(ps savage sucks lol)

 

[346ci]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those numbers are called normal pressures. </div></div>

SPC-II is a chamber with a longer throat that will drop pressure by 1000 - 1500 psi. Some also advocate loading to higher pressure and longer than max OAL. Whether those features should be included in a future SPC-II standard is a matter of opinion as nothing has been decided on yet. There have been a few attempts to make it a standard but it was not entertained by SAAMI. </div></div>

It is normal for SPCII and 6.8X43 chambers, 99% of the market. If you will look into the ammo description, it basically says, if you still have a dinosaur SPC chamber, it would not be in your best intrest to shoot that ammo. But then again, I don't anyone still using those old SPC chambers.

 

[346ci]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MBC223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why does one have to be better than the other? They both have their perks. Get wich one works for you. This sounds like remmy guys saying savages are shit and savage guys saying factory remmys won't shoot. Move on.
(ps savage sucks lol) </div></div>

Anyone with common sense can see both have their pros and cons, what I'm calling out it the BS Robert continues to spread among the inter webs that degrades the 6.8 to make his anemic 300BO look better.

Oh yeah, Savage has been kicking remys arse for quite some time in the bolt gun world.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: "346ci"</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is normal for SPCII and 6.8X43 chambers, 99% of the market.</div></div>

Two specialized ammunition makers load that way. Same as Buffalo Bore loading hot 45-70s.

When any one of the following companies loads commercial 6.8 ammunition to 58,000 psi, then we can talk:

Federal
Winchester
Remington
Hornady
Lapua

 

[Guest]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: "346ci"</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is normal for SPCII and 6.8X43 chambers, 99% of the market.</div></div>

Two specialized ammunition makers load that way.

When any one of the following companies loads commercial 6.8 ammunition to 58,000 psi, then we can talk:

Federal
Winchester
Remington
Hornady
Lapua
</div></div> Only one of those company's loads good ammo.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: .300 Blackout

Federal is coming out with a 6.8 Gold Dot load in 2013. They have the benefit of seeing what everyone else has done over the last nine years.

Whatever that load does for performance is likely going to be good, and what I will use in charts going forward.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rusty815</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the 95gr. Tactical load (please stop referring to it as an overpressure load, its a spec II load, which when used in a spec II chamber is not overpressure and perfectly safe) with the velocity given by SSA has 820ft/lbs of energy at 300 yards

the 85gr. tactical load has 780ft/lbs of energy at 300 yards </div></div>

I used the same ballistics calculator - QuickTarget - for all of my examples. SSA seemed to use a calculator that gave more favorable results. While I am not sure which calculator is more correct, it is important to use the same one for all of them if you are going to do a comparison, and that is what I did.

 

[WVHunter1s1k]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are arguing with a brick wall brother. The BO is a poor preformer past 200yds, no way around it, big ass bullet, tiny case.</div></div>

That is demonstrably false. I have explained why 300 BLK is able to perform so well with a small case - very high efficiency.

These are 300 yard impacts and have more than 50 caliber expansion and 20 and 24 inches of penetration - that is great performance. In fact, it is so amazing that some people find it hard to believe.

For max point blank range, 6.8 is 1.1x 300 BLK.
For energy at distance, 6.8 also has 1.1x the range.
For distance to known drop, 6.8 has 1.07x the range.

If that impresses you, then by all means, pay 64% more for the lowest-priced ammunition vs 300 BLK.</div></div>

IMHO-
You know...I look at that picture and I see 2 bullets with hollowed out cores & the petals that are not fully deployed. (Barnes bullets will usually curl back around, mushroom like.)

I am not going to tussle with Mr. Silver. I am going to take the advice of quotes from George Carlin & Mark Twain.



PS- "The emperor has no clothes."

 

[rsilvers]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Acc371</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IMHO-
You know...I look at that picture and I see 2 bullets with hollowed out cores & the petals that are not fully deployed. (Barnes bullets will usually curl back around, mushroom like.)

I am not going to tussle with Mr. Silver. I am going to take the advice of quotes from George Carlin & Mark Twain.



PS- "The emperor has no clothes."

</div></div>

Barnes bullets are solid copper and have no cores. At closer ranges, they will curl back more, be we are approaching the maximum range in which these bullets will fully expand, but they did fully expand because more curl does not add to the diameter.

The best FBI-approved 5.56mm bullet expands to about 0.400 at 300 yards. These expand to about 0.600 at 300 yards. That is a 125% improvement - and they are far better on intermediate barrels as well.

 

[rusty815]

Re: .300 Blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rusty815</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the 95gr. Tactical load (please stop referring to it as an overpressure load, its a spec II load, which when used in a spec II chamber is not overpressure and perfectly safe) with the velocity given by SSA has 820ft/lbs of energy at 300 yards

the 85gr. tactical load has 780ft/lbs of energy at 300 yards </div></div>

I used the same ballistics calculator - QuickTarget - for all of my examples. SSA seemed to use a calculator that gave more favorable results. While I am not sure which calculator is more correct, it is important to use the same one for all of them if you are going to do a comparison, and that is what I did. </div></div>

I used Strelok for all of the loads I listed, also used the real world BC's of the rounds listed, your Nosler load only has those numbers using their inflated, unrealistic numbers. I have been trying to be fair to the 300BO, I already said it has its merits and is great when shot subsonic, has a much farther range than subsonic pistol cartridges, and at the same time is able to shoot decently when supersonic out to about 300 yards, but I can also acknowledge that it has its limits when compared to other rounds that are natural supersonic rounds. I have already shown that the 6.8 has more energy than the 300 at 300 yards (even when comparing the 300BO loads to the lightest possible 6.8 load, which isn't even its most popular load). Now it just seems like you are trying a petty approach at arguing about the Spec II chamber, saying its "overpressure". the Spec II chamber is the norm, as has been pointed out before, you are saying it's overpressure because it is above SAAMI, those specs have been abandoned, yet you cling to it like it is the norm.

I would compare the Spec II 6.8 to the 7mm mauser, most modern day rifles chambered in it are capable of firing it at high pressures, but because of the old mauser rifles that aren't capable of firing at such pressures, ammunition manufacturers make their 7mm mauser ammunition soft so that it can be fired by the old mausers as well as the newer rifles. It is the same for the 6.8, because these old SAAMI chambered rifles still exist, ammo manufacturers have to make ammunition that can be fired by both.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: .300 Blackout

Rusty,

I agree with what you're saying about the 6.8 and 7mm comparison. I believe it would also be true of the 6.5G. I had spoken directly with Bill Alexander on a couple of occasions asking him about extending the leade. His answer was and continues to be that the chamber/round dimensions were already submitted to SAAMI that way and no changes were going to be made. At least in the 6.8 you can find bolt guns. I think this is where Bill is really, really missing the market (and I said this to him) in that he won't work any deals with any bolt gun makers. Think of a superlight bolt gun of maybe 5 lbs. shooting these cartridges. It would be an excellent system IMO.

As that issue pertains to the .300, the chamber is already maximized. There really is no improving of it except to shorten the neck and possibly reduce accuracy. Or, increase throat erosion. What little it does have.

In any case, I can, and you can, repeat ourselves until we're blue in the face. But, it won't rejoin a discussion until rsilvers gives up some load data. That will show in fact that the .300 Blk/Wh does not have more energy than the other rounds discussed here.

 

[jwp6114]

Re: .300 Blackout

they both blow past 400 yards, if i had to choose for close in it would be 300BLK due to using standard mags and bolt face and the selection of .30 projo's out there.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: .300 Blackout

A chamber cannot be over pressure, just ammunition.

Yes, 6.8 has more energy at 300 yards than 300 BLK. And 6.5 G has more energy at 300 yards than 6.8.