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Gunsmithing Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

pcweidman

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Forum,

What if a gunsmith tells you there may need to be bedding done on an AICS? Should I call him crazy and incompetent or just doing what needs to be done to get the job done right? I thought the whole preface behind the AICS was no bedding for a free float unbastardized channel for the barreled action?

Is my POTENTIAL gunsmith crazy?

C
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

Have him qualify "need" as in exactly how much improvement you will see on target by bedding it.
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

He's just thinking old school, that's all. I would say no thanks to that part, and properly torque the action screws. Shoot it without bedding, and you might be very happy with the results. Nothing wrong with your smith.
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

Hmmmmm Good advice guys thanks. Is there a potential for weather and humidity fluctuation to alter accuracy with bedding in picture?
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

Have shot them both ways, I think they can both be very accurate. From what I've seen and read the rear tang is usually the area they want to bed if the action doesn't want to lay down well in the chassis.YMMV
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

I come from a br and long range target background and i have an aics. I was always taught that if there is stress in the action it is not good . Does this mean it won't shoot good, no. Does a stress free action have the potential to shoot better then one that is stressed, yes. Shooting of a bipod in field conditions probably would not show the difference between the two. The way to see if the action is under stress is real simple, torque both action screws and lock barrel in padded vice parralel the ground. Pay attention to the barrel/forend gap as one screw is backed off . If nothing happens retorque it and loosen the other and see what happens. If there is no movement ur gtg, if there is the action is under stress . Witg my aics and Remington the barrel would raise 3/8" up in the barrel channel when the front action screw was backed off. In fact the stock would pull away from the barrel the whole time the screw was being turned out. The aics rear v does not support the rear tang behind the rear action bolt. This is what causes the stress . I bedded the rear tang area on mine and now there is no stress . I did not shoot it before bedding, when i see that kind of stress induced i instantly bed the stock. Some smith's bed aics some don't. If ur smith built the rifle i would trust his opinion to bed the stock. I beleive laprecision, gap, and several others bed the rear tang on aics builds. Before i bedded mine i did research bedding it and some people would say in the same breath" stress is bad but don't worry about stress if it is in an aics". Ur rifle and all but if u trust the smith to build it trust his opinion to bed it. I do see no need of bedding the front v or lug area if a trued action and recoil lug is used.
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

Varies by action. Remmies are commonly referred to as "banana" actions. I got one that is so bent I had no choice but to bed it.

Remmy in their cheapness machines the action while it is soft, then heat treats afterwards, causing the actions to warp.
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 6brshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I come from a br and long range target background and i have an aics. I was always taught that if there is stress in the action it is not good . Does this mean it won't shoot good, no. Does a stress free action have the potential to shoot better then one that is stressed, yes. Shooting of a bipod in field conditions probably would not show the difference between the two. The way to see if the action is under stress is real simple, torque both action screws and lock barrel in padded vice parralel the ground. Pay attention to the barrel/forend gap as one screw is backed off . If nothing happens retorque it and loosen the other and see what happens. If there is no movement ur gtg, if there is the action is under stress . Witg my aics and Remington the barrel would raise 3/8" up in the barrel channel when the front action screw was backed off. In fact the stock would pull away from the barrel the whole time the screw was being turned out. The aics rear v does not support the rear tang behind the rear action bolt. This is what causes the stress . I bedded the rear tang area on mine and now there is no stress . I did not shoot it before bedding, when i see that kind of stress induced i instantly bed the stock. Some smith's bed aics some don't. If ur smith built the rifle i would trust his opinion to bed the stock. I beleive laprecision, gap, and several others bed the rear tang on aics builds. Before i bedded mine i did research bedding it and some people would say in the same breath" stress is bad but don't worry about stress if it is in an aics". Ur rifle and all but if u trust the smith to build it trust his opinion to bed it. I do see no need of bedding the front v or lug area if a trued action and recoil lug is used. </div></div>

I have observed the same with my AICS and factory Remington action. Since it shoots sub-MOA and I want to flexibility to use the AICS on other rifles I've left it alone.
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

That is great information. This is a Stiller Tac300. Do you think it would be prone to Banana as you say or would I be looking at a very straight action? Seems straight when I roll it across the table! hahaha

Ok I will talk to my smith when he starts it if I dont send send it to a couple other guys I am thinking of contacting. I have another thread going about looking for smiths that specialize or are comfortable with AICS. I am having a problem with my smith being good yet not working on my schedule. He may get to it in 2014 if it were up to him. I have gotten a few suggestions like XRing and LA Precision.

C
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

I bet it will, i also bet it is dead nuts straight too. The problem is not because of how Remington heat treats either, but not a fan of Remington. The rear tang sits in a v, the v only supports the action in front of the rear bolt. This setup adds a mechanically leveraged stress to any Remington or Remington footprint action. The savage action is similar, the rear pillar only supports the front half of the rear action bolt. When i first got my aics, i tried lighter torque on the rear bolt to allieve stress. I found out anything over 13 in/lbs caused stress.
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

I am currently awaiting a build with Mark Gordon at SAC. the 700 action will sit in an AICS. He has spoke to me about 2 bedding options for a stress free fit for the chassis.
Although not needed, it just depends on how much you want from your rifle.
I opted for the rear tang area of the chassis to be bedded for a stress free ride.
I value Mr Gordons opinion, and trust his judgement in building my rifle. I am confident he builds a rifle that delivers the goods.
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

"Stress". Can someone please explain to me exactly what stress does to degrade accuracy once a receiver is properly torqued into a vee black chassis. Do you honestly feel the receiver is moving in the chassis inconsistently shot to shot?
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

Sure, stress can cause erratic groups, unexplained fliers that don't jive with conditions. Stress can cause harmonic nodes to change. When u have a precision rig built u want all mating surfaces dead nuts square and no tolerance stacking. Seems silly to go to that trouble then throw it in a rigid stock that preloads/stresses/tweaks the action. I don't pretend to know what all issues stress can cause in a precision rig but it is not a good thing and should be eliminated when possible.
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 6brshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style="color: #FF6600">Does a stress free action have the potential to shoot better then one that is stressed, yes.</span> </div></div>

Thats how I feel, It just makes sense to me
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

if you are going to use changing "harmonic nodes" as a reason, you must take into account that the non-bedded "harmonic node" may be the better one potentially netting a less accurate rifle after bedding.

i'm confident my visually bent remington action is "stressed" about as much as it gets into my aics. i know it fails the so-called "stress test" miserably. know what? i have no erratic groups and no unexplained fliers. neither does my stiller tac30 in a non-bedded aics. in fact, i am not sure i have even seen a properly installed/torqued aics be the cause of unexplained fliers or erratic groups. i've been around and shot against just a <span style="font-style: italic">few</span> of them.

bottom line is bed one if you want. i think you are totally defeating the purpose of going to a heavy and ugly brick of a stock in the first place though. but don't tell people they NEED to bed them unless you can back it up by guaranteeing an improvement. suggesting it based on your personal beliefs or logic, sure.
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

Do tell 300! I kinda feel the way you do.......however I don't know shit! All I know is I am spending a LOT I money, for me, for this weapon and I need it to be money! I may just call out a professional instead I my local, yet very quality, smith. I know he is good cause I know his guns but man I don't know if we are getting paralysis by analysis or preference!
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

I have a Surgeon Scalpel they built on their 591 action and an AICS. For what it's worth, when the rifle arrived I noticed they bedded the rear tang. I hadn't even thought to talk to them about bedding an AICS...it must be SOP there.
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

Changing harmonic nodes, i am referring to the action being stressed and temperature or other environmental changes occur and the stressed action might change a node. Not for sure if this could happen, but u aren't either. Its ur stock do what u want the question was asked, if ur opinion was already formed don't ask a question. How many people in this thread had a custom build done with an aics that was bedded by a well known rifle guru. How many had a custom build done with an aics that wasn't bedded?
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 6brshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Changing harmonic nodes, i am referring to the action being stressed and temperature or other environmental changes occur and the stressed action might change a node. Not for sure if this could happen, but u aren't either. </div></div>

so in your opinion, changing temperature and other environmental changes may only affect a "stressed" action? i asked a question that i was hoping someone could back up with facts. when people say something is NEEDED, i'd sure hope they could back it up with more than theoretical "might" or "could".


going off memory (it was a couple years back when i had someone do the math so my numbers may be wrong), the normal force between an anodized aics and properly torqued receiver is something over 1000 lbs and would take more than 500 lbs of force to move the receiver and that's not even taking the recoil lug into account.
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

I am also pretty sure i never said they NEED to be bedded. I did say any time an action is stressed it is not a good thing or something to be proud about. I think if a non bedded aics was locked down in a rail gun set up that there would be some things seen in group shape that are masked by the excuses of "i shot prone off a bipod". I never said groups would look like buckshot. Ask any smith on here if stress induced on the action by a poor fitting stock is good for accuracy or consistency.
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

U have ur viewpoint and i have mine, i respect yours. I do not claim to know how every receiver acts when being torqued down under stress. I would mention some great books to read about precision/BR rifles and what goes into them and chapters written about the importance of stress free bedding but i feel that sometimes knowledge will never changed predisposed opinion. Good day gents. To the op sounds like u will have a fine stick when all is said and done, might try giving LaPrecision or Geoff Corn a call. When u call any Smith ask about action stress and issues resulting from it.
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

Do your books discuss rigid aluminum vee block chassis?

The op's potential smith said it was "needed".
Edit: I take that back. He said it "may need bedding".
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

The books i mentioned deal with fiberglass stocks, less rigid then the aics. The aics would not flex at all and be less forgiving to preload stress. In my head, and apparently SAC and Surgeon, i think bedding an aics is a good thing . What harm can 5 bucks worth of bedding compound done properly do? Even if one wanted to swap barreled actions around, the .005ish" difference between the different actions would add less stress than the teeter totter effect of an unbedded aics.
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

Teeter-totter effect? A round receiver in a vee block has a teeter-totter effect when torqued in?

A round receiver in a non-bedded or poorly bedded round inlet is far more likely to have a teeter-totter effect than a round receiver in a vee block.
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

Look at the rear v block area on an aics, now take a breath. The rear action screw pulls down on the action correct? There is no support behind the rear screw. The v block is there but the action tang narrows down on a 700 around and behind the screw and is no longer supported by the v block. That is the teeter totter effect i was alluding to. If u don't beleive me unscew the front action screw on ur rifle and explain to just why the barrel raises up 3/8" at forend tip. That is the teeter totter effect. How much does that effect the accuracy, i don't know but if it can be eliminated it should be. I don't think well respected smith's i mentioned would just bed to make money. They bed it so that it takes stress out of the equation as much as possible.
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

If the op had his rifle in hand and just got an aics i would tell him to shoot it and see how it did. If it shot to his acceptable level then fine rock and roll. But since it is going to a smith to be built while it is there let him bed it. No harm will come from this, trust me on that.
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

I have two AICS chassis, one is SA, one is LA. SA is Stiller, LA is Remington. Neither are bedded, both shoot sub 1/4". Unless the rifle won't shoot without bedding, I wouldn't waste my time.
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 6brshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How much does that effect the accuracy, i don't know but if it can be eliminated it should be. </div></div>

why? because someone said "stress" is bad?

stress:

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stress:

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stress:

D8CE307E-F82C-48A7-A7CB-BC6A2B6266D4-1682-000002626C0A78D4.jpg


stress:

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hmmm. maybe the last round was because of the stress in the vee block or i yanked the trigger hard. guess we'll never know
wink.gif




i'm pretty sure these pictures represent all rounds i have sent down range at 100 yards since i rebarreled my 284. benchrest accuracy? nope. if i required benchrest accuracy, i wouldn't be using this style of stock in the first place. they were all shot prone off a concrete deck with a harris bipod and a tac-ready "tactical" rear bag. if you think bedding this system would allow me to make those groups any tighter, i have a bridge for sale.
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

What does this gunsmith want to charge you for bedding? As discussed earlier, its $5 worth of epoxy. Smiths make good money bedding.

I had a GAP bedded in a Manners. Then I pulled it and put it in a Manners Mini-Chassis. Groups didn't change one iota, despite not passing the "stress test". Dropped another barreled action in it and it shot well as well.

I'd pass on the bedding unless I had it done and the rifle just wouldn't shoot, then and only then, would I consider bedding.
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

Not too shabby at all, these are from a bedded aics. 5 shots at 100 and some 200 yd groups
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those are called bugholes, all this proves is that some rifles shoot good unbedded and when they are bedded in an aics. I like how there is no stress in my action, I am confident in that and when you have confidence in your equipment it helps the mental game side of it. If your aics is unbedded and you are cool with it and it shoots like 300 sniper rock on. I bed all my rifles, they look awesome and always respond to bedding with smaller groups. The Aics of mine was never shot before bedding, I have never saw that much preload stress put on an action. I don't beleive calling professionals that want to bed the Aics hustlers or scammers. They, like myself, beleive an action will shoot to its best potential when free of stock induced stress.
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

I bedded the tang part of my rifle because I noticed the contact areas had rubbed through the anodizing into the aluminum. At the range, my groups are more consistent now. I'm not saying it is needed for every rifle. I'm just saying what I found and it seemed to help me. Btw, this was on my 6.5x47 Lapua. I looked at my .308 and it was fine.
 
Re: Bedding an AICS? Hmmmmm?

I haven't heard of many full out bedding jobs on an AICS. (could just be no one has mentioned it) But a skim bed is not unheard of, nor have I heard the rifle shooting worse after it.
 
Don´t want to start a new thread for this; have different chassis, but essentially the same problem (rear tang not fully supported). I´m looking at that rear tang area here and honestly, the gap is there but it is very narrow (approximately 0.8mm or 0.03" at its´ deepest point). When you decide to bed it, do you remove any material from the chassis? I´m woried the bedding compound would crack if it´s made too thin. What is the good word for that, any recommended minimum thickness for skim bedding in general?
 
Have Chad Dixon surface machine the inlet to match your action...presto, the best of both worlds. He has a thread going about it.
 
Im sure my smith did it for a reason im about to find out tom if it does make diff.
And besides he didnt charge me so im not gonna cry.i caled it stress releif ':)
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