Help me diagnose my grouping problem

[NMMX]

First off, thank you for all the help I have received from everyone on this site. Second, sorry for the long post but I want to give as much info as possible to help diagnose my issue.

Could use some opinions on my grouping problem. I'm less than a year into precision rifle and slowly getting better, not quite at the rate i would like though.

I got Franks "Day One" dvd this week and watched it a few times. I have also been subscribed to the online training for the past 4-5 months.

Last week I went out and went through 60 rounds trying to maintain at least MOA accuracy from 100-750 yards. I did my best each shot to work on the fundamentals and really control my shots. Frustratingly anything past 100 yards and my groups opened up widely.

For example, I have shot multiple 5 shot groups at 100y between 0.3 - 0.8 inches. Best groups further out are:
200y- 3.5"
300y- 5"
400y- 4.5"
550y- 8"
600y- 7"
750y- 4" "Do not know how I was able to pull that one off"

These shot were all made with what I believe to be under 5 mph of wind.

I will be going back out this Thursday and wanted to know what distances you guys would like me to shoot at and either 3 or 5 shot groups, so that I can post my info and results for you guys to help diagnose. I will also post all the weather and rifle data.

Here is the info I have currently.

Rifle: Rem 700 aac-sd .308. with RWS brake.
Base & Rings: Nightforce 20 moa 2 piece w/ nightforce rings
Scope: Vortex Viper PST 4-16
Chassis: XLR
No other modifications have been made.

The scope has been leveled using bubble levels and a plumb-line.

I have shot FGMM 168 & 175s and SMK 175 from SW AMMO and have had various results with each but best results with the 175SMKs. This is also the only ammo I have left, so it's what I will be shooting on Thursday.

My range has known distances from 100-750, which is the info I am going off of, since I do not yet have a range finder. I have worked up and confirmed a dope chart as best I could using shooter and these distances.

I am shooting prone with a bipod, and rear bag and I am able to control the rifle well enough to always see my shots impact. I do not yet have a chronograph.

I also do not have a kestrel but do use the shooter app and am only .5 miles from a local weather tower. I also have wind flags marking every 100 yards.

Please let me know any other info you guys need.

Thank you in advance for any help.

-Dan

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Help me diagnose my grouping problem

how the groups are spreading...

is it vertical, horizontal, or all around

 

[NMMX]

Re: Help me diagnose my grouping problem

Groups are definitely all around.

I am also being sure to focus parallax and making sure there is no black in the reticle.

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Re: Help me diagnose my grouping problem

My Friend,

Have patience with yourself. Your path is long, marked with significant reward and frustration. Enjoy the process, for it is both your "dues" and your "crown". Good shooting is only the by-product of the path you take.

Be absolutely sure to keep a journal/diary/log book of your efforts. Maintain one section as "Fundamentals". Write in this section only if and when you 100% know that the statement/position/skill is correct.

Use other sections to investigate the rifle, the load, the barrel conditions, cleaning, positions, wind, mirage, range estimation, angular shooting, variations in the acceleration of gravity, humidity, spin-drift and the coriolis affect (snicker).

But to your question: The low hanging fruit is that you live in New Mexico. It's hot there, and I'd guess a whole bunch of mirage. Have you investigated mirage, and do you KNOW how it affects perception of your target? Do you KNOW that mirage usually is the best indicator of what the wind is about to do (as witnessed by range flags)? I'd recommend that if you are thoroughly versed in mirage that you by-pass my suggestion, but if the challenge rings true, you pursue investigation.

Kind regards,

1smalljohnson

 

[NMMX]

Re: Help me diagnose my grouping problem

1smalljohnson,

Thanks for the input. I am aware of mirage and do my best to read it. I'm not positive but don't believe the mirage was affecting my shots, as it was only 50 degrees out. Please let me know if you feel I am over look this though.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Help me diagnose my grouping problem

Mirage DOESN'T affect your shots. The wind does, mirange is just a means of reading wind.

 

[NMMX]

Re: Help me diagnose my grouping problem

Thanks kraig, I was assuming he meant that when it's really hot and the mirage can almost blur your sight.

I wound up having to work on Thursday and it's gonna be another couple of weeks before I can get to the range. When I do, I'm planning on taking shots at the Dot Drill and shooting multiple 3 round groups at 100, 200, 300 & 400. Hopefully they will show a pattern you guys can help me with. I am sure it's lack of experience but with being so "green" I'm not sure what it is.

One other question I had is about being able to actually see your shots. I normally shoot at a 2'x2' white board with 6" shoot N see targets on it. The problem I have is anything past 300 yards and I can't see where I'm impacting on the board to make adjustments. I can see the dirt kick up behind the board but can't pinpoint my shot. I can see my impact on painted steel targets out to 800 easy enough but not on the paper ones. Any suggestions?

 

[Topstrap]

Re: Help me diagnose my grouping problem

Spotting Scope

Topstrap

 

[MAT4-82]

Re: Help me diagnose my grouping problem

Try giving yourself a more finite aiming point on your targets. Maybe just large enough to be seen with your reticle at each distance and perhaps a vertical or horizontal line to help avoid cant. From sub MOA at 100 to 1.75MOA at 200 does not seem right if the system is solid. If there are any more experienced shooters around of proven ability I would have someone else shoot the gun. I would also stick to 200-300 until you identify the problem. If it won't shoot there it sure won't at distance.

 

[George63]

Re: Help me diagnose my grouping problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NMMX</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Groups are definitely all around.

I am also being sure to focus parallax and making sure there is no black in the reticle. </div></div>

are you adjusting for focus, or for eliminating parallax error ?

 

[NMMX]

Re: Help me diagnose my grouping problem

Topstrap: Had one of those "dumbass" moments. Don't know why i didn't think of that. Spotting scope is on the "to get" gear list, but a few items down.

Mat 4-82: Thanks, that's the kind of input I was hoping for. Not sure when my next range trip will be but i'll stick to 300 and under when I go. Haven't yet met any other shooters here, but there is a match this weekend I'm hoping to spectate.

George63: Sorry for the miss wording. I haven't adjusted focus since I set the scope up. I do adjust parallax at each distance.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Help me diagnose my grouping problem

I understand that you do not have a chronograph. This device will give you an idea about how well your ammunition is performing. Knowing ES and SD will predict your opportunity to hold elevation at distance. Also, when shooting scorable targets for record, which can give you recognition of your marksmanship development, having a low ES and SD means you can expect most error/s will be from position inconsistency, trigger control, perspective of aim inconsistency, or not correctly countering for wind and weather effects. To correctly analyze shooter error/s, call your shots, and thereafter, plotting both the call and strike, your corollary will lead you to understand, by yourself, the source or sources of most possible error/s. For example, for a shot called right-in-there, but strike someplace horizontal off call, it's likely you did not have a correct favor. Here's another example, a shot called a 9 at 9, which comes up a 9 at 9, suggests error from position inconsistency, perhaps, poor trigger control, since the bullet did indeed go where your sight indicated it would.

At any rate, for more certain shooter/target analysis, you should get both a chronograph and a spotting scope, as both are essential to a complete understanding of shot placement. One more thing, as suggested earlier by another poster, practice at a short distance such as 100 yards for general marksmanship development. With little concern for wind there, you will recognize shots not right-in-there are mostly about your own inconsistencies. After you are shooting close to zero dispersion, which should eventually be the case with self analysis and enough practice to perfect your muscle and picture memory, then take it out to what ever distance you can still see a bullet hole through the spotting scope, assuming you do not have pit service where someone can pull targets and place a spotting disc in bullet holes for you to see strike location. This will allow you to get a feel for wind effects from your shot call and strike corollary, made possible from seeing the bullet hole from the spotting scope.

 

[minnesotadan]

Re: Help me diagnose my grouping problem

Assuming you have done all of the reloading stuff, ladder test, seating off lands and knowing you ammo / gun combo is working. I would suspect that the your variation would be caused by either of the two things: you know when the shot is going to break or your shooting technique like position, loading bi pod and placement of bags and tension of the rifle to the rear is not consistant. These type of things will be causing you issues.

 

[EXTREMEPREJUDICE]

Re: Help me diagnose my grouping problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NMMX</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Frustratingly anything past 100 yards and my groups opened up widely. For example, I have shot multiple 5 shot groups at 100y between 0.3 - 0.8 inches.-Dan </div></div>

You shouldn't be frustrated as your marksmanship at range pretty much mirrors your performance at 100 yds. As the external factors will have a greater impact at range (wind, variance on cartridge/bullet performance, etc.) everyone's (ok, almost everyone's) groups open up at distance. If you can work to eliminate the 0.5 in spread at 100 yds then you can start diagnosing and compensating for the external factors influencing your results. BTW, you are shooting pretty darn good for someone who is learning by reading, on-line traing, video's, etc.

 

[rickster1269]

Re: Help me diagnose my grouping problem

not enough practice?

 

[redirt78]

Re: Help me diagnose my grouping problem

Good thread. Posting to steal some knowledge haha

 

[seanhagerty]

Re: Help me diagnose my grouping problem

I would have some one else shoot your rifle to see if its you or the bangstick.