6.8 or 300 blackout

[rsilvers]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rusty815</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just for kicks, heres a CPD 25 rounder:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/310959/...ess-steel-black</div></div>

25 rounds though. The Barrett is 30 and well reviewed:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/163532/barrett-magazine-ar-15-68-remington-spc-30-round-matte

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rusty815</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That one is out of stock though, and I can't really use that here in Cali, so heres the 10 rounder:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/186454/...ess-steel-black</div></div>

No reviews. This one has 11 reviews, averaging almost 5 stars. People must feel it was worth it:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/576975/..._vc=subv1186454

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rusty815</div><div class="ubbcode-body">according to Mr' Paolo Santos on the 6.8 forums, the differene in pressure from a SAAMI to a Spec II chamber, all else equal, is 4k:</div></div>

That is not correct. His conclusion was 1500 psi:

http://paulosantos0922.wordpress.com/tag/6-8-spc/

"CONCLUSION:
The SPCII Chamber reduces the pressure by approximately 1500K PSI without the loss of accuracy."

The answer when lab tested is 1000 - 1500 psi, depending on the ammunition. This has been tested in actual ballistic labs by several larger companies, the US govt., and Western Powders Ballistic Lab.


From: Robert Silvers
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 5:06 PM
To: Johan Loubser
Subject: Re: Western Powders Ballistic lab

Johan,

Have you ever done a test where you take a 6.8 SPC SAAMI test barrel, measure velocity and pressure, then ream the same barrel to 6.8 SPC-II - and add more powder to match the pressure of the previous test, and then see how much extra velocity there is?

Robert.

----------------------------------

Robert,
Yes we did exactly that and the difference was negligible as to be ignored ca 20-30Fps and <1000Psi.
I know there is a lot of claims out there regarding this.
Some apply the effects of other calibers (such as the 223Rem) with completely different expansion ratios to the 6.8SPC.
The 6.98Spc is not sensitive to the slight changes in dimensions between the std and SPEC II.

Regards
Johan Loubser
Ballistician
Ramshot.Accurate.Powders

----------------------------------

Robert,
Example is that with SAAMI reference ammunition we got a difference of Pressure: -2.5%/-1200Psi and -19Fps
If one consider that is equal or less than one standard deviation I consider it negligible.
Regards
Johan Loubser
Ballistician
Ramshot.Accurate.Powders

From Art at SSA:
I can not disagree with Bob's statement of only 1000 -1500 PSI reduction and <30 FPS increase with a given load and projectile with respect to the SAAMI VS the Spec II chamber


Then DocGKR posted: "The information Mr. Silvers has posted is the factual truth. Every professional ballistics facility, including USG, foreign military, and Industry, that I am aware of that has tested 6.8 SPC vs. 6.8 SPCII using industry standard equipment has reported only a 1000-1500 psi change."

 

[rsilvers]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="text-decoration: underline">Best</span> speed loads only get 2200. And they aren't even comparable to the 30-30 because it moves bullets out 50 gr. heavier at that speed. </div></div>

Incorrect. 2400 fps for 110 grain at 55,000 psi for 300 BLK in a 16 inch barrel. 30-30 is faster at first but the bullets are lower in BC - and of course you cannot put 30 rounds of 30-30 in an AR15.

Also 30-30 velocities are not reported for 16 inch barrels like 300 BLK. Hornady reports their Leverevolution velocities from a 24 inch barrel.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">efficiency means nothing in a short barrel if the less efficient still kicks out more power, i.e. the 5.56, 6.8 and 6.5 Which can all get to 1k. </div></div>

True if the goal is to be long range - you just want the most horsepower. Likewise, a drag racer will not get good gas mileage, and it does not matter. 300 BLK is more of a daily driver.

300 BLK is not a 1000 yard cartridge. It is designed to be less of a compromise where most shots actually happen.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">$200 or $203 still means you took down another AR upper that you paid for. Don't forget to add, $100 for an upper. Another $100 for the forearm $40-$50 for a gas block, $20 more for the short gas tube, $20 for the spare parts kit because they don't sell little bitty pins all by themselves. Or, just buy an extra $80 'lower' kit so you can have all the pins. </div></div>

DS Arms was selling 300 AAC Blackout uppers with stainless barrels for $320. Also, if you change your mind, you can just sell your barrel for $100 to $200 and then put in a 5.56mm barrel - and you won't have to sell your bolts or magazines.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

rsilvers,

Your accounting practices are atrocious as is your reasoning in how to deduce what is less pressure in a cartridge case.

I had hoped to not post to this thread again, but I really need to point out your inadequacies.

As I pointed out, you make it sound so simple to just go buy some cheapie little upper and throw a .300 barrel on there and see???...it only cost $100. Not exactly. You aren't getting the quality of a better build. Further showing why you shouldn't get a .300 blk instead of correctly demonstrating why you SHOULD get one. Spend enough money to do it right. And account for it when you do. Making half-baked comparisons isn't realistic.

Next, you attempt to point out the .300 has more power than a 5.56, 6.5G or 6.8. Again, simple math or use a ballistic calculator and you will see it doesn't produce the most power. It ONLY produces the most power by a subsonic round that easily fits in the -15 platform. You continue to misconstrue facts and twist verbiage until you make it sound as though the .300 is the winner. It isn't, please stop making it sound as though it is.

If you want one rifle for as many purposes as you can cover, why would you sacrifice long range? Simply put, NOTHING from a .300 Blk will even come close to what a 5.56 will. ESPECIALLY not a 6.8 or 6.5G will do. You try to make speed comparisons with a .30-30 then somehow try to make that look like energy. I will admit though the .300 is better than a .30-30 in that it holds 30 rounds. But, so does the 5.56. The 6.8 or 6.5G are right behind that in number holding 26. So, I'll say they're not only better than the .30-30, they are better than the .300. Because they can do all the things a .300 can't.

In summary, no one is saying the .300 doesn't have a purpose. It does. And, it does that purpose better than anything else of it's size and class with minimal issues to deal with. But, by no means is it the best all around.

Just be realistic in what you say, and you will garner a lot more fans of it than you will saying something it isn't.

 

[groundhogbuster]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xdm40guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am looking at a Wilson Combat AR.
Found two in stock. One is 6.8 the other 300 blackout.
Any thoughts? </div></div>

I own the Wilson Combat in 6.8spc. Shoots bugholes, I also own the Addax, DD, and RRA. The Wilson and Addax are neck and neck out to 500yds, but haven't even run 20rds through either. I usually grab my RRA to hunt with. I'm a true 6.8 believer. No they are not a 1K BR cartridge, or even a paper puncher king. There's too many other cals out there that dominate the 6.8, but my RRA has put down whitetail to 300 yds, and is very handy in the woods. My DD is the Ambush, and I removed the "shotgun" forearm, and it's a 6lb middy that shoots great, but the 11 twist (Addax/Wilson C) push the 85's over 3k, and are sub moa shooters.
6.8 gets my vote!I do own the Wilson C in 7.62x35, and it's a great shooter, but I got it to run a can, and haven't had the $ for the stamp yet, so it sits idle for now.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">rsilvers,

Your accounting practices are atrocious as is your reasoning in how to deduce what is less pressure in a cartridge case.</div></div>

Pressure in the cartridge case is pressure in the cartridge case. My calculation was for force on the bolt face.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As I pointed out, you make it sound so simple to just go buy some cheapie little upper and throw a .300 barrel on there and see???...it only cost $100. Not exactly. You aren't getting the quality of a better build. </div></div>

You can build from whatever parts that you wish, but 300 BLK is always less expensive because one does not need a new bolt or to replace their 5.56mm magazines.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Making half-baked comparisons isn't realistic.</div></div>

Fewer parts being less money is not a half-baked comparison or bad accounting.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Next, you attempt to point out the .300 has more power than a 5.56, 6.5G or 6.8. Again, simple math or use a ballistic calculator and you will see it doesn't produce the most power. </div></div>

I don't remember the comparison you are claiming, but whatever examples I have given were (obviously) based on using a ballistic calculator. I have given some examples here: http://www.300aacblackout.com/resources/300-BLK.pdf

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It ONLY produces the most power by a subsonic round that easily fits in the -15 platform.</div></div>

No, it has as much muzzle energy from a 16 inch barrel as M855 from a 24 inch barrel.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You continue to misconstrue facts and twist verbiage until you make it sound as though the .300 is the winner. It isn't, please stop making it sound as though it is.</div></div>

You have made accusations in this post but you did not quote anything specific that I said and show why it is not correct.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you want one rifle for as many purposes as you can cover, why would you sacrifice long range? </div></div>

Because when you optimize a rifle for longer ranges - say using 6.8, you sacrifice things at the ranges where 99%+ of shots actually happen. These sacrifices come in the form of additional rifle and ammunition cost, more recoil, more flash, more muzzle blast, and lower capacity in magazines - or if you want the same capacity - the magazines are $41 each for 6.8.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Simply put, NOTHING from a .300 Blk will even come close to what a 5.56 will.</div></div>

Alright - you said it again. 300 BLK has more power than 5.56mm - I did not know there was anyone who did not know that. It also has much better intermediate barrier penetration against auto glass.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ESPECIALLY not a 6.8 or 6.5G will do.</div></div>

Agreed that 6.8 and 6.5 have more power than 300 BLK, but 6.8 practice ammunition costs 40% more than 300 BLK so each user has to decide if that is worth it for them.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You try to make speed comparisons with a .30-30 then somehow try to make that look like energy.</div></div>

I can't remember doing this. Maybe you are thinking of 7.62x39mm? 30-30 uses a heavier bullet.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

Your bullshit of twisting what people say is getting pretty annoying.

I never said the .300 was more powerful than a 5.56. Put into proper context, that you took it out of, is it is more powerful in subsonic form ONLY. That's because all the cartridges being compared are shooting a bullet below the speed of sound. So, it's only natural that the heaviest will give the most energy. What you fail to include in that one instance is trajectory. It takes 32 moa to get to 300 yds. The other calibers are almost all the way out to 1000 yds. by then.

Your accounting practices of which I speak are not including all the parts you don't use. And, "Whatever else you seem to have on hand".

If you really want to give the thing a black eye, keep pushing your crap. Selling it as something it's not. And, twisting peoples words to get there.

Plain and simple. The .300 will NOT do what the 5.56, the 6.5G or 6.8 WILL do in full power forms. They in turn will not do the ONE thing a .300 can do nearly as well. If I could only have one rifle, it sure as hell wouldn't be a .300 blk. Your rifle fills one niche. The others do well across the board.

I'm sure you find more time to come back and post another lie. I don't like having to call you straight up on the carpet like that but that's what you deserve.

You are a liar. When you lie to get something sold, it will come back to haunt you.

 

[p951951951t]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

Yikes. It looks like madbro disease is going around in these parts.

 

[bustin]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

I think every person that sells something should also answer the phone in the complaint department. After they answer 1000 calls about the shit they sell they may not exaggerate as much about how good it is or what it is good for. This isn't arfcom thank God. It wont be as easy to fool members here into thinking the BLK is combat effective to 820 yds.
The blk is good for one thing, replacing the MP5 IF it is as reliable as the MP5.

 

[bustin]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The BO would be fine for 100-200yd kill shots on game or anything you would do with a 7.62X39 as they are close in performance. A BO SBR with a suppresor shooting subs is a awesome setup.

The 6.8 can reach out to 400yds, if the shooter can do their part. The 6.8 has more velocity and power. The 6.8 does well with short barrels also as seen with LWRC's Six8 rifle. Bison Armory has a version of the 6.8 that runs subs but also shoots supers well, it is called the "BSP". </div></div>
IMO, this is a good answer if you plan on hunting with either.
If you aren't on a special team that needs subsonic suppressed capability the 6.8 provides better terminal performance in every category.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your bullshit of twisting what people say is getting pretty annoying.

I never said the .300 was [not] more powerful than a 5.56. Put into proper context, that you took it out of, is it is more powerful in subsonic form ONLY.

You did say that 300 BLK was less powerful than 5.56mm. Here is your quote:

"Next, you attempt to point out the .300 has more power than a 5.56, 6.5G or 6.8. Again, simple math or use a ballistic calculator and you will see it doesn't produce the most power."

That's because all the cartridges being compared are shooting a bullet below the speed of sound. So, it's only natural that the heaviest will give the most energy. What you fail to include in that one instance is trajectory. It takes 32 moa to get to 300 yds. The other calibers are almost all the way out to 1000 yds. by then.</div></div>

I never promoted the power of subsonic ammunition and I don't know why you keep on speaking of it. Subsonic is a specialty round that few will ever want. 300 BLK is normally a supersonic cartridge like 7.62x39 or 30-30.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your accounting practices of which I speak are not including all the parts you don't use. And, "Whatever else you seem to have on hand".</div></div>

I see - so you are upset because I "fail to mention" that subsonic ammunition is not powerful and does not have long range. I guess I don't see the problem of that since few will ever opt to use subsonic ammunition and it is just one optional type of ammunition.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Plain and simple. The .300 will NOT do what the 5.56, the 6.5G or 6.8 WILL do in full power forms. They in turn will not do the ONE thing a .300 can do nearly as well. If I could only have one rifle, it sure as hell wouldn't be a .300 blk. Your rifle fills one niche. The others do well across the board.</div></div>

300 BLK is for people who want to shoot 30 caliber in an AR15 with normal, full capacity magazines, and have a bump in energy compared to 5.56mm. 300 BLK is the most powerful way to do this. 300 BLK has a wider range of application than just about anything, as it works with bullets from 100-250 or more grains, making it the opposite of a niche or specialty caliber.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sure you find more time to come back and post another lie. I don't like having to call you straight up on the carpet like that but that's what you deserve.

You are a liar. When you lie to get something sold, it will come back to haunt you. </div></div>

If you are going to say I lied, then you should be asked to prove at least one lie. If you don't - most forums would ban you for that kind of false personal attack.

So - please give one example of a lie.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bustin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The blk is good for one thing, replacing the MP5 IF it is as reliable as the MP5. </div></div>

It could replace six weapons in use by various US military groups. Also, it is great for hunting within 300 yards for when people want to use an AR15 and 5.56mm is not allowed.

 

[fdkay]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

Why do you guys insist on feeding the troll.

Amongst many of the asnine statements he makes reference performance to "300 yards", where supposedly, most engagements occur.

Try telling that to the men in Afghanistan, where engagements are routinely well over 300 yards.

Silvers is the most deceitful hack trying to sell a product that exists.

He makes personal injury lawyers and used car salesman look like Mother Theresa.

 

[groundhogbuster]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

6.8 is easy found at my local ffl and online everywhere. But the 300blk I can only find online, but I just use to reload anyhow.
I got the 7.62x35 for sub sonic. Nothing else, but have fired the supersonic stuff. I think for AR platform and hunting to 300yd the 6.8 is superior to the 300, that's just by owning both of Wilson Combat's versions. I have owned Barrett, Addax, RRA, DD, Ambush (DD), Wilson C, Noveske, ARP, and built my own. I have my own (BHW brrl) but sold the Barrett because (RRA $550 upper/Barrett 6.8x43 upper $1400) Bye Bye Barrett, esp since it didn't even shoot as good as the RRA with a FF DD rail.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why do you guys insist on feeding the troll.

Amongst many of the asnine statements he makes reference performance to "300 yards", where supposedly, most engagements occur.

Try telling that to the men in Afghanistan, where engagements are routinely well over 300 yards.

Silvers is the most deceitful hack trying to sell a product that exists.

He makes personal injury lawyers and used car salesman look like Mother Theresa.


</div></div>

You are right. It's a forum and the time lost arguing with a salesman you won't ever get back. Thanks for the perspective again.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Amongst many of the asnine statements he makes reference performance to "300 yards", where supposedly, most engagements occur.

Try telling that to the men in Afghanistan, where engagements are routinely well over 300 yards. </div></div>

That is what 308 is for, not some other intermediate cartridge.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are right. It's a forum and the time lost arguing with a salesman you won't ever get back. Thanks for the perspective again.

</div></div>

Nope - you still have to name one lie as you accused me of. If you are not willing to do this, then you need to withdraw the accusation.

 

[softcock]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

( bustin ) <span style="font-weight: bold">..." <span style="font-style: italic">The blk is good for one thing, replacing the MP5 IF it is as reliable as the MP5</span> ".</span>
-
Got to run an FA w/Noveske BLK short-barrel Upper, suppressed . Running with factory box 220 grn. BLK subsonic ammo .
I got to say it ran like a top with NO faults with what I shot short burst & full string & also with the ammo run threw it by other . It had that .45 cal. FA grunt on the recoil but was easy to control after feeling it out .
BLK would be way less Money-$$$ than an FA HK short-suppressed with the easy accessibility to parts/repair .
.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are right. It's a forum and the time lost arguing with a salesman you won't ever get back. Thanks for the perspective again.

</div></div>

Nope - you still have to name one lie as you accused me of. If you are not willing to do this, then you need to withdraw the accusation.</div></div>

Why don't you just go to a moderator or Frank and get me banned. Calling bullshit on you is no shame on me.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> "Alright - you said it again. 300 BLK has more power than 5.56mm - I did not know there was anyone who did not know that. It also has much better intermediate barrier penetration against auto glass."</div></div>

 

[fdkay]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Amongst many of the asnine statements he makes reference performance to "300 yards", where supposedly, most engagements occur.

Try telling that to the men in Afghanistan, where engagements are routinely well over 300 yards. </div></div>

That is what 308 is for, not some other intermediate cartridge. </div></div>

So you would expect them to carry two rifles and two ammo loadouts while humping through the mountains?

That is basically the argument you are presenting.
Carry the weak ass .300 BLK for the close in shit and carry a full power .308 for anything beyond point blank range.

Why the fuck would you even say something so stupid?

One rifle, one cartridge.
It would be best if they went with something between the AR15 and AR10 platform, but they won't.
So we are stuck with the AR15 platform.
The 6.8 is the best all around performer.
More power than your bullshit little wanna be AK47 round, flatter trajectory, excellent terminal performance that has been PROVEN in the field, also quite capable of taking targets down at extended ranges up to 700 yards.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

So you would expect them to carry two rifles and two ammo loadouts while humping through the mountains?

That is basically the argument you are presenting.
Carry the weak ass .300 BLK for the close in shit and carry a full power .308 for anything beyond point blank range.</div></div>

No, I am saying just carry an M110 carbine in the mountains of Afganistan.

Also, for the record, "point blank range" does not mean "up close." It means the maximum range for which you can shoot without adjustment or compensation. 308 has its own point blank range.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Why don't you just go to a moderator or Frank and get me banned. Calling bullshit on you is no shame on me</div></div>

But you did not call bull. You said I lied - which has a much more specific meaning. So please give one example where I lied, or retract your accusation. The reason why you won't is because you can't as I never lied. No matter how hard you try using all of your ability - you are not able to find even one example.

 

[The Lawn Ranger]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

Wow! When did this become so personal. It's an f-ing caliber discussion we are having here. Correct?

To me, all calibers have their merit and should not be compared so literally.

I shoot a 284 win to 1600 yds. successfully and would never expect my 6.5 Lapua to perform the same way, I would just be wasting expensive ammunition.

I can't speak for the 6.8 cartridge but I can say that the 300 BLK is a a very fun round and the idea of that much energy, with a 30 cal bullet, using under 20 grains of powder, through a 10" barreled suppressed rifle is pretty cool. I would shoot this over a 7.62x39 round any day. I bought this rifle to shoot suppressed and am glad I did-It brings a smile to my face every time I pull the trigger.

Also, the idea of taking a deer at 150 yds with a suppressed 10" rifle is pretty amazing.

I bought this gun for very specific reasons and never considered it to be a do it all caliber-that would be foolish.

 

[fdkay]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

So you would expect them to carry two rifles and two ammo loadouts while humping through the mountains?

That is basically the argument you are presenting.
Carry the weak ass .300 BLK for the close in shit and carry a full power .308 for anything beyond point blank range.</div></div>

No, I am saying just carry an M110 carbine in the mountains of Afganistan.

Also, for the record, "point blank range" does not mean "up close." It means the maximum range for which you can shoot without adjustment or compensation. 308 has its own point blank range.
</div></div>
Have you humped an M110?
Have you humped an M110 with a full loadout of ammo?

I know what PBR is, and it is quite short on the .300 BLK

You're also an idiot.

 

[p951951951t]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

I think rsilvers was referring to the M110C. It looks a lot lighter and more portable than the full-sized M110.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have you humped an M110?
Have you humped an M110 with a full loadout of ammo?

I know what PBR is, and it is quite short on the .300 BLK

You're also an idiot.
</div></div>

I own a Mk11, which is much like an M110, but I was speaking of a 16 inch carbine.

It is only a 17-24 yard difference in max point blank range, depending on the load, between 300 BLK and 6.8.

6.8, Hornady, 110 V-MAX - 244 yards.
6.8, SSA, 110 Pro Hunter - 237 yards.
6.8, SSA, 120 SST - 239 yards.
300 BLK, 110 grain black tip, loaded by Barnes, is 220 yards.

Going up to 308 is where the big difference happens.

 

[mike in pa]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Subsonic is a specialty round that few will ever want.

If you are going to say I lied, then you should be asked to prove at least one lie.</div></div>

You have to be kidding. your statement above is a bald faced lie. You go around from board to board and especially ST pushing 300 blk as a subsonic round for suppressor use. And due to the fact that you show up in record time, you must have a computer programed for the 300 BLK term and notify you immediately. I am sure that your rapid response is due to Remington breathing down your neck for putting this round in production and you need to get as many on board as possible to pay for production costs.

The only reason for its existence is for selling AAC cans for guys that want a really quiet round with more ummph than 9mm that fits in an AR platform. I will stick with 9mm, it's a lot cheaper

 

[rsilvers]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mike in pa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You have to be kidding. your statement above is a bald faced lie. You go around from board to board and especially ST pushing 300 blk as a subsonic round for suppressor use. </div></div>

No I don't. It is in my powerpoint along with all of the other features, but I mention subsonic use a very small percentage of the time.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mike in pa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am sure that your rapid response is due to Remington breathing down your neck for putting this round in production and you need to get as many on board as possible to pay for production costs.</div></div>

Remington has never asked me to promote it.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mike in pa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The only reason for its existence is for selling AAC cans for guys that want a really quiet round with more ummph than 9mm that fits in an AR platform. I will stick with 9mm, it's a lot cheaper </div></div>

It exists because of military interest.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Why don't you just go to a moderator or Frank and get me banned. Calling bullshit on you is no shame on me</div></div>

But you did not call bull. You said I lied - which has a much more specific meaning. So please give one example where I lied, or retract your accusation. The reason why you won't is because you can't as I never lied. No matter how hard you try using all of your ability - you are not able to find even one example. </div></div>

There will be no retraction of my statement that you are a liar. I have already shown where YOU LIED and took my words and twisted them. Maybe my definition of lying includes twisting words to mean something they don't.

You have grossly misrepresented the cartridge as something it is not. When someone goes to explain this to you, you twist words to make it look like they are saying what you are. I am saying in clear, no uncertain language, that your round does not do what you say it does. In essence, that is lying. Not being truthful is lying. That is you in a nutshell.

I'll stand behind my words and if you have a problem with it, take it uphill...where shit rolls down from.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There will be no retraction of my statement that you are a liar. I have already shown where YOU LIED and took my words and twisted them. Maybe my definition of lying includes twisting words to mean something they don't.

You have grossly misrepresented the cartridge as something it is not. When someone goes to explain this to you, you twist words to make it look like they are saying what you are. I am saying in clear, no uncertain language, that your round does not do what you say it does. In essence, that is lying. Not being truthful is lying. That is you in a nutshell.

I'll stand behind my words and if you have a problem with it, take it uphill...where shit rolls down from. </div></div>

A lie is a deliberately untruthful statement. Just remind me of one that I said, because I did not notice you pointing any out. I see that you think you did, but you were incorrect.

On the other hand, you said a number of untrue statements. Here are some examples:

"The only thing it does BETTER is launch sub-sonic rounds."

This is false because it also defeats intermediate barriers better than 5.56mm, among other things such as having less flash, blast, and more energy.

Then you said: "Next, you attempt to point out the .300 has more power than a 5.56, 6.5G or 6.8. Again, simple math or use a ballistic calculator and you will see it doesn't produce the most power. " But it does produce more energy than 5.56mm.

This is also untrue because it does have more energy than 5.56mm.

You then said: "[300 BLK] is more powerful in subsonic form ONLY"

That is also not true.

Here is a supersonic comparison with various barrel lengths:

In summary, you did not provide any valid evidence that I lied.

 

[Captain Kirk]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

rsilvers, would you happen to have a similar chart as above with a 6.8SPC vs .300BLK, since that is the OPs question. Interesting numbers for sure, but the thread has got way off topic.

Kirk R

 

[rsilvers]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Captain Kirk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">rsilvers, would you happen to have a similar chart as above with a 6.8SPC vs .300BLK, since that is the OPs question. Interesting numbers for sure, but the thread has got way off topic.

Kirk R </div></div>

I don't with the barrel length comparisons, but here are a few energies at 300 yards (all barrels 16 inch except for the M4):

6.8 Hornady 120 SST - 932
6.8 Hornady 110 V-MAX - 885
300 BLK 175 3-gun - 856
300 BLK PNW Arm 155 - 796
6.8 SSA 110 Pro-Hunter - 756
300 BLK Remington 125 - 690
6.8 85 TSX SSA +P - 685
5.56mm M4 with Mk262 - 684
300 BLK 115 UMC - 628
300 BLK Barnes 110 - 615
5.56mm M855 - 613

Not as much difference as some would have you think. And as you can see, 300 BLK does not just have more energy than 5.56mm at the muzzle, but also at 300 yards - and with much less flash, blast, and noise as more energy goes into the bullet rather than being more wasted on byproducts like noise.

 

[MDStroup]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

I never promoted the power of subsonic ammunition and I don't know why you keep on speaking of it. Subsonic is a specialty round that few will ever want. 300 BLK is normally a supersonic cartridge like 7.62x39 or 30-30.

The reason the subsonic ammunition keeps being brought up is because that is the only thing the .300 blackout has going for it. Take that away, and it has nothing. Wasn't the whole point in the 300 blackout being created was so there was a round that gave more energy than a subsonic 147gr 9MM bullet from a MP5 and still function in an AR15 ? RSilvers you are to the .300 blackout what H2O man is to the M1A/M14 , a trolling fanboy.

 

[MDStroup]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There will be no retraction of my statement that you are a liar. I have already shown where YOU LIED and took my words and twisted them. Maybe my definition of lying includes twisting words to mean something they don't.

You have grossly misrepresented the cartridge as something it is not. When someone goes to explain this to you, you twist words to make it look like they are saying what you are. I am saying in clear, no uncertain language, that your round does not do what you say it does. In essence, that is lying. Not being truthful is lying. That is you in a nutshell.

I'll stand behind my words and if you have a problem with it, take it uphill...where shit rolls down from. </div></div>

A lie is a deliberately untruthful statement. Just remind me of one that I said, because I did not notice you pointing any out. I see that you think you did, but you were incorrect.

On the other hand, you said a number of untrue statements. Here are some examples:

"The only thing it does BETTER is launch sub-sonic rounds."

This is false because it also defeats intermediate barriers better than 5.56mm, among other things such as having less flash, blast, and more energy.

Then you said: "Next, you attempt to point out the .300 has more power than a 5.56, 6.5G or 6.8. Again, simple math or use a ballistic calculator and you will see it doesn't produce the most power. " But it does produce more energy than 5.56mm.

This is also untrue because it does have more energy than 5.56mm.

You then said: "[300 BLK] is more powerful in subsonic form ONLY"

That is also not true.

Here is a supersonic comparison with various barrel lengths:

In summary, you did not provide any valid evidence that I lied.
</div></div> I just saw this after I submited my last post. If the .300 blackout is such a great round why are you using data for 55gr 5.56 NATO ammunition to make the power gap etween the two rounds look so great. Make this same chart again, but instead of using data on the 55gr M193 use data on the 77gr MK262 5.56 NATO round.

 

[bustin]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

ROFLMAO, who needs reality shows?
For the record the 300blk is slower than the 7.62x39 by 150fps from my testing...both 16" barrels. Slower than the 30-30 too when the same weight bullets are used and everything is equal, not cherry picking a 110gr load and comparing it to a 150gr load.
Saying the military was interested is misleading. Special teams want and are interested in everything. The big green isn't changing anytime soon from the new contracts I have read about in the past year.
The 300 wasn't developed it was a straight copy, rename and market similar to the Grendel being a copy of the 6.5CSS and then the 264 is a closer copy of the 6.5CSS too. Lots of used car salesman tactics going on here.

 

[bustin]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MDStroup</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I just saw this after I submited my last post. If the .300 blackout is such a great round why are you using data for 55gr 5.56 NATO ammunition to make the power gap etween the two rounds look so great. Make this same chart again, but instead of using data on the 55gr M193 use data on the 77gr MK262 5.56 NATO round. </div></div>
Exactly, Mk 262, 318 and 855A1 have all been used since the 55gr was but the 300 doesn't look as good when you compare it to those.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MDStroup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The reason the subsonic ammunition keeps being brought up is because that is the only thing the .300 blackout has going for it. Take that away, and it has nothing.</div></div>

300 BLK is the most powerful way to shoot 30 cal from an AR15 with normal full capacity magazines.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MDStroup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wasn't the whole point in the 300 blackout being created was so there was a round that gave more energy than a subsonic 147gr 9MM bullet from a MP5 and still function in an AR15 ? RSilvers you are to the .300 blackout what H2O man is to the M1A/M14 , a trolling fanboy. </div></div>

No, that is not the whole point of 300 BLK.

I am the project lead for 300 BLK at AAC.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MDStroup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just saw this after I submited my last post. If the .300 blackout is such a great round why are you using data for 55gr 5.56 NATO ammunition to make the power gap etween the two rounds look so great. Make this same chart again, but instead of using data on the 55gr M193 use data on the 77gr MK262 5.56 NATO round. </div></div>

The chart is for the purposes of showing how barrel length effects velocity/energy for each cartridge at the muzzle - not down range - where Mk262 does better.

I just posted 300 yard data for each cartridge, and I included Mk262 in that. So your argument that I was avoiding Mk262 to make 300 BLK look better is false.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bustin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Exactly, Mk 262, 318 and 855A1 have all been used since the 55gr was but the 300 doesn't look as good when you compare it to those. </div></div>

Well, it looks like this - ft-lbs at 300 yards:

300 BLK 16" 175 3-gun - 856 ft-lbs.
300 BLK 16" PNW Arm 155 - 796 ft-lbs.
5.56mm M4 14.5" with Mk262 - 684 ft-lbs.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bustin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ROFLMAO, who needs reality shows?
For the record the 300blk is slower than the 7.62x39 by 150fps from my testing...both 16" barrels. Slower than the 30-30 too when the same weight bullets are used and everything is equal, not cherry picking a 110gr load and comparing it to a 150gr load.</div></div>

I have never "cherry picked a 110 grain load and then said that the velocity was higher than a 30-30 heavier load." Never. Never ever - so please don't imply that I have.

Here is how it compares to 7.62x39mm:

Lapua 123 grain 7.62x39mm - 712 Joules at 300meters (0.280 BC, 16.5 inch barrel).

Remington Match 125 grain 300 BLK - 829 Joules at 300 meters (0.320 BC*, 16.0 inch barrel, 2220 fps muzzle velocity).

Advantage – 300 BLK by 16.4%, even with slightly shorter barrel.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bustin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Saying the military was interested is misleading. Special teams want and are interested in everything. The big green isn't changing anytime soon from the new contracts I have read about in the past year. </div></div>

I don't think that is misleading.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bustin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 300 wasn't developed it was a straight copy, rename and market similar to the Grendel being a copy of the 6.5CSS and then the 264 is a closer copy of the 6.5CSS too. Lots of used car salesman tactics going on here. </div></div>

It was developed but not invented. We had to pick all of the dimensions that were not shared with the 220 Fireball. We had to make subsonic and supersonic ammunition that worked without adjusting the gas system. We decided to make optimal bullets, and we did a lot of ammunition and rifle testing.

It took a long time and was done at great expense, and then given away as a SAAMI cartridge for anyone else to use for free.

 

[WVHunter1s1k]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">300 BLK is the most powerful way to shoot 30 cal from an AR15 with normal full capacity magazines.</div></div>
Interesting......."with normal full capacity magazine"...Interesting wording.
Technically, that would rule out .30 AR-15 rounds like the .30 HRT. Slick!! CONGRATS on that one!
Or, ...maybe not...The normal full capacity magazine of 6.8 magazine is either 25 or 30s, 10s & 17s can all be loaded to full capacity of their respective load sizes. The .30HRT uses 6.8 magazines & case.

So, your saying the .300 Blk is more powerful than the .30 HRT. You have been quoted for the record.

Also, Cherry picking low BC 6.8 rounds & leaving out rounds such as the SSA 140 Berger & other high BC 6.8 rounds.
But, who cares!!
Oh, you left out the weight of your Award winning round.

Nothing like free advertising!! This thread is hilarious!!
ROFL!

 

[Captain Kirk]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

300 BLK <span style="font-weight: bold">16"</span> PNW Arm 155 - 734 ft-lbs
5.56mm M4 <span style="font-weight: bold">14.5"</span> with Mk264 - 684 ft-lbs.
</div></div>

We all know the 5.56 evergy and velocity suffers when running with shorter barrels, what are the #s for the 5.56 with Mk264 with a 16" barrel to keep things fair.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Acc371</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also, Cherry picking low BC 6.8 rounds & leaving out rounds such as the SSA 140 Berger & other high BC 6.8 rounds. </div></div>

I went back and added the Hornady 120 SST - the 6.8 round with the most energy at 300 yards that is not +P and +OAL.

Including the SSA 140 load would be like me loading up a 175 grain into 300 BLK - but rather than do it at or below 2.260 OAL and no more than 55,000 psi pressure, redo it as 2.295 OAL and 58,000 psi pressure - and then including it in my chart. Not valid.

 

[WVHunter1s1k]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

Oh, +p. Can't let the competition top rounds be counted, can we?
Not in this 300 Blk free commercial.
They're for SPC II chambered rifles.
Checkmate!

It's been nice playing with you. Better luck next time! Bye-bye!

 

[rsilvers]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Captain Kirk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

300 BLK <span style="font-weight: bold">16"</span> PNW Arm 155 - 796 ft-lbs
5.56mm M4 <span style="font-weight: bold">14.5"</span> with Mk262 - 684 ft-lbs.
</div></div>

We all know the 5.56 evergy and velocity suffers when running with shorter barrels, what are the #s for the 5.56 with Mk264 with a 16" barrel to keep things fair. </div></div>

300 BLK 16" 175 grain 3-gun - 856 ft-lbs.
300 BLK 16" PNW Arm 155 - 796 ft-lbs.
5.56mm 16" Mk262 - 714 ft-lbs.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Acc371</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh, +p. Can't let the competition top rounds be counted, can we? </div></div>

That is just to keep it an apples/apples comparison between cartridges. We can't compare rounds that use hand loader tricks in one cartridge to normal rounds in another. I will only use data that is at normal max pressure and not loaded long.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Acc371</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They're for SPC II chambered rifles.
Checkmate!

It's been nice playing with you. Better luck next time! Bye-bye!
</div></div>

Actually I am perfectly willing to use loads which are 55,000 psi when used in an SPC-II chamber for the purposes of comparison charts. The problem is those loads you want listed are not 55,000 psi - even in an SPC-II chamber. They are 58,000 psi in an SPC-II chamber.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Captain Kirk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

300 BLK <span style="font-weight: bold">16"</span> PNW Arm 155 - 734 ft-lbs
5.56mm M4 <span style="font-weight: bold">14.5"</span> with Mk264 - 684 ft-lbs.
</div></div>

We all know the 5.56 evergy and velocity suffers when running with shorter barrels, what are the #s for the 5.56 with Mk264 with a 16" barrel to keep things fair. </div></div>

To keep things fair we would also have to find a real number for the .30 cal 155's which do not come out of a 10" barrel @ 1950 fps. More like 454 ft. lbs @ 300 for the 155's. While the Mk 262 is putting out 700 ft lbs. from a 16" barrel.

But, he's not lying...just misconstruing.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Captain Kirk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

300 BLK <span style="font-weight: bold">16"</span> PNW Arm 155 - 734 ft-lbs
5.56mm M4 <span style="font-weight: bold">14.5"</span> with Mk264 - 684 ft-lbs.
</div></div>

We all know the 5.56 evergy and velocity suffers when running with shorter barrels, what are the #s for the 5.56 with Mk264 with a 16" barrel to keep things fair. </div></div>

To keep things fair we would also have to find a real number for the .30 cal 155's which do not come out of a 10" barrel @ 1950 fps. More like 454 ft. lbs @ 300 for the 155's. While the Mk 262 is putting out 700 ft lbs. from a 16" barrel.

But, he's not lying...just misconstruing. </div></div>

The 155s are 1990 fps from a 16 inch barrel:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/177928/...-tail-box-of-20

Calculating that now, I get 796 ft-lbs at 300 yards. I was claiming 734, but I am going to change that to 796. Thank you for catching my error.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

New data:

6.8 Hornady 16" 120 SST - 932
6.8 Hornady 16" 110 V-MAX - 885
300 BLK 16" Atlanta Arms 175 3-gun - 856
300 BLK 16" PNW Arm 155 - 796
6.8 SSA 16" 110 Pro-Hunter - 756
5.56mm 16" with Mk262 - 714
300 BLK 16" Remington 125 - 690
6.8 85 16" TSX SSA +P - 685
300 BLK 16" 115 UMC - 628
300 BLK 16" Barnes 110 - 615
5.56mm 16" M855 - 613

 

[WVHunter1s1k]

Re: 6.8 or 300 blackout

The barrels are usually proofed at 70k. 58K is very much below that. Let alone 60k. But, this has been hashed probably over 50+ times. So, no real need to get into it again. It would just be redundant.
You still listed the 175gr. But, it doesn't matter.

Anyhow, It's been nice debating with you Mr. Silver. Have a good day tomorrow!(since today is just about over.)