Curious LEO, & CCW

[Bigwheels]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but I'm feeling brave.
For the LEO's here.
If you got a call saying multiple gunshots @ (insert school, mall, etc.) and no other info. When you arrive on scene you hear gunshots, & screams. A clean cut man in his 40's is waiting for you to exit your vehicle, sais I'm armed, & can help. Backup is several minutes away. Do you accept his offer? Why? Department policy, officer safety?
To CCW's here.
You are on scene when above situation unfolds. Would you offer to assist? Why? Don't want to get shot by freaked out cop? Could at least watch his back incase of multiple shooters?
Flame suit on. Have at it.

 

[High Binder]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bigwheels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe this is a stupid question, but I'm feeling brave.
For the LEO's here.
If you got a call saying multiple gunshots @ (insert school, mall, etc.) and no other info. When you arrive on scene you hear gunshots, & screams. A clean cut man in his 40's is waiting for you to exit your vehicle, sais I'm armed, & can help. Backup is several minutes away. Do you accept his offer? Why? Department policy, officer safety?
To CCW's here.
You are on scene when above situation unfolds. Would you offer to assist? Why? Don't want to get shot by freaked out cop? Could at least watch his back incase of multiple shooters?
Flame suit on. Have at it.

</div></div>

LOL, you're delusional, the cop would tell you to fuck off and probably arrest your ass if you tried to interfere. That's just asking for a lawsuit and cops aren't going to even want you anywhere in the area, besides there's 4,000 more cops only seconds away so...

 

[Powder_Burns]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

I'd hate to be on scene with a CCW and be mistaken for a 'bad guy'.
That being said, if you are on the scene and you can respond in a way that could prevent the loss of life or limb, do it and worry about the fallout another day.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> A clean cut man in his 40's is waiting for you to exit your vehicle, sais I'm armed, & can help. Backup is several minutes away. Do you accept his offer? Why? Department policy, officer safety?</div></div>

I'm retired, but if this happened while I was working, I would not accept his offer. That would leave you open to huge law suits if something happened to the CCW guy, or some action by the CCW guy.

However, depending on the situation, I wouldn't tell him not to help either. I'd just act like I didn't hear him, that way if he acted, he'd be acting on his own and not my agent.

Something to consider here, the only one who can deputize anyone in this country is an elected official, such as a sheriff, not an appointed LE officer or not a hired deputy, but only the elected official (sheriff).

 

[Shooter McGavin]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Powder Burns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd hate to be on scene with a CCW and be mistaken for a 'bad guy'.
That being said, if you are on the scene and you can respond in a way that could prevent the loss of life or limb, do it and worry about the fallout another day. </div></div>

Well the nice thing about that is the police have to inform you their there. They will shout "POLICE" drop the gun. This gives you a chance to comply and they get to sort it out later.

 

[DCR]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

Are you sure about that? Did I miss some sarcasm?

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

Perhapse. As to there being 4000 cops seconds away... Nowhere I have ever lived in my life had that kind of resource. I live in a small town with only 26 officers total.

 

[BLOODHOUND]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bigwheels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe this is a stupid question, but I'm feeling brave.
For the LEO's here.
If you got a call saying multiple gunshots @ (insert school, mall, etc.) and no other info. When you arrive on scene you hear gunshots, & screams. A clean cut man in his 40's is waiting for you to exit your vehicle, sais I'm armed, & can help. Backup is several minutes away. Do you accept his offer? Why? Department policy, officer safety?
To CCW's here.
You are on scene when above situation unfolds. Would you offer to assist? Why? Don't want to get shot by freaked out cop? Could at least watch his back incase of multiple shooters?
Flame suit on. Have at it.

</div></div>

LOL, you're delusional, the cop would tell you to fuck off and probably arrest your ass if you tried to interfere. That's just asking for a lawsuit and cops aren't going to even want you anywhere in the area, besides there's 4,000 more cops only seconds away so... </div></div>

You said "seconds away" lol

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

There's lots of seconds in 2 1/2 hours.

 

[SniperCJ]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

I would not accept his offer. As was stated before, too much liability. If time permitted I would tell him to stay outside and direct responding officers to my location.

Ive seen how much 'training' CCW holders get in Texas. I'd rather not get shot by the CCW.

You're joking right?

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ive seen how much 'training' CCW holders get in Texas. I'd rather not get shot by the CCW</div></div>

Kind of like NY Cops.

Bad guy shoots good guy, cops shoot at bad guy, hit 9 bystanders..

 

[Inogame]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ive seen how much 'training' CCW holders get in Texas. I'd rather not get shot by the CCW</div></div>

Kind of like NY Cops.

Bad guy shoots good guy, cops shoot at bad guy, hit 9 bystanders.. </div></div>

In their defense don't NY cops have to have the special "safe" 1,000 lb triggers?

 

[BearGuide]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shooter McGavin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Well the nice thing about that is the police have to inform you their there. They will shout "POLICE" drop the gun. This gives you a chance to comply and they get to sort it out later. </div></div>

Really? I missed that part in active shooter training. I have to announce my presence and tell an active shooter to "drop the gun" before I can engage?

Not to be a dick, but that is absolute misinformation. There is no duty to announce police presence or to order an active shooter to drop the gun. He has already shown his intent to commit violence, already shown a propensity to harm others. No requirement exists to give him a second chance. If I roll onto a school shooting, hear shots, hear screams, children running out, fire alarm blaring, I observe an individual with a firearm, I do not have to tell him I am LE. I am not there to get him to comply, I am not there to talk him down, I am not there to negotiate. I am there to stop his aggression with speed, surprise, violence of action. Nothing more, nothing less.

If a concerned CCW holder is in the parking lot, announces that he is armed, am I going to allow him to enter the school and help me? No way. Not because I don't trust your shooting, not because citizens with guns scare me, not because I don't think you can take care of business, not because I don't appreciate the offer, but because of liability. Guns don't scare administrators, people getting killed does not scare administrators, officers getting hurt or killed does not scare administrators, a CCW holder getting permission from a cop to accompany him into an active shooter situation would scare an administrator half to death and the ensuing lawsuits would end the career of said cop.

Am I going to be polite, courteous, and take the time to explain this to a well intentioned CCW holder who is meeting me at the scene of an active shooting? Probably not, sorry for the hurt feelings, but I am not that patient when responding. I will probably be asking you in a no nonsense way to help secure any children, start a head count, and inform any other responding units of my location as I am running through the front door. If you choose to follow me into the school, that is on you. Am I going to slow the tempo to threaten arrest or force you out, no, not hardly. Could you be charged later? Absolutely. Would I press the issue, no, not even close, but I guarantee you, the administration would. Not because you didn't do the right thing, mainly because of the pending lawsuits that are sure to arise.

This response may piss of the cop haters on the Hide, but it's just the way it is.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

Good Job, BearGuide.

Nice to hear that, with a concise explanation. Appreciated.

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

Bear Guide. Thanks for your candor. That is exactly what I would expect, assuming some CCW didn't run up to the LEO with gun drawn, & get shot on sight. Were it myself, the offer would be there, but I would honor the orders of the responding LEO whatever his reply, & do whatever I could to help in any way I could. I must admit that the potential for law suits outweighing the potential for fewer victims is sad to say the least. But I guess that the millions of grubby lawers have to make a living somehow huh.
Havent heard from any CCW's yet. What would they do? I would hope most would offer assistance, & comply with any orders they were given.

 

[High Binder]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 338BLOODHOUND</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> besides there's 4,000 more cops only seconds away so... </div></div>

You said "seconds away" lol </div></div>

LOL. Yeah, I was laughing as I typed that out too. I figured a few people would get a laugh out of it.

 

[Jerrrrstanley]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

I would be yelling drop the gun as I took 4 pounds out of a 5 pound trigger pull. You would have a pound and about 0.1 seconds to comply.

Faced with that situation I would tell you to stay outside and direct any officers on where I went in at and tell you to eliminate any deadly threat if it came outside. I may get smoked first step in and the CCW holder be alone when bad guy steps out.

 

[Foul Mike]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

I don't think I would offer nor help a LEO in almost any situation be it a shoot or an ass whip.
I might offer First Aid, maybe. Would wonder about lawsuits. Citizens first then LEO. They have all of the answers for everything else so should be able to take care of themselves without me.
Hopefully, when I was done helping the citizens the LEOs would not need me as I think they would get the most attention from responding EMT.
Sad, but there it is, Regards, FM

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

Come on man! In respect for others on this site, I'm pretty sure he was referring to the yelling @ the active shooter post above. Have some respect.

 

[Frontiersman]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

Bearguide stated it well. FWIW even on duty plain clothes officers are strongly discouraged from entering the building because of the high probability that they may get shot because they are not in uniform and are brandishing a gun in an active shooter situation.

 

[BearGuide]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Foul Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think I would offer nor help a LEO in almost any situation be it a shoot or an ass whip.
I might offer First Aid, maybe. Would wonder about lawsuits. Citizens first then LEO. They have all of the answers for everything else so should be able to take care of themselves without me.
Hopefully, when I was done helping the citizens the LEOs would not need me as I think they would get the most attention from responding EMT.
Sad, but there it is, Regards, FM </div></div>

It's ok that you express your opinion about LEO's, I don't know you or your experiences with LEO's, however, I am glad to point out that you are in a minority, in my experience. I have accepted and been thankful many times for help given to me by my community members. I don't follow the idea that you are my enemy, even if you left me wounded on the side of the road. If you chose not to render assistance to me while performing in any capacity as an LEO, I would neither think bad of you, nor vow to not assist you in your time of need. The thought would not even cross my mind. Not everyone is designed to help those in need, whether a citizen, or a LEO. Sometimes people get so jaded with life in general that they have nothing left for others.

As a side note, I agree with you on citizens before LEO's. Every officer I work with would also agree. Fortunately, our EMS crews are taught to triage wounded, regardless of if the wounded are in uniform.

 

[maccrazy2]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

Not a cop but if I were in a situation like that I would either have already shot the perp to protect myself and my family or I would be leaving the scene in a hurry because I was not in direct contact with the shooter. Not being a leo I believe I would be doing more harm than good to hang around. Short of having direct info to relay to the police such as I saw 2 shooters ect...

 

[EddieNFL]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ive seen how much 'training' CCW holders get in Texas. I'd rather not get shot by the CCW.</div></div>

Over the years I've competed with a number of LEOs...

 

[Adam B]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

it has always amazed me how bad of a shot some/most of the LEO guys are when they come out to play USPSA. If my life depended on my gun I would sure as hell make sure I was proficient with my pistol.

 

[Foul Mike]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

I would not leave you on the side of the road, I would give you First Aid as best I could.
I would not assist you during the incident as you may take me to be one of the bad guys and I would just leave you to do your job.
Regards, FM

 

[HD1911]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Adam B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it has always amazed me how bad of a shot some/most of the LEO guys are when they come out to play USPSA. If my life depended on my gun I would sure as hell make sure I was proficient with my pistol. </div></div>

No Doubt. I've noticed this in IDPA, IPSC, and 3 Gun Comps.

 

[Loaded247]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

I live in St.Louis MO. I'm not a Police Officer, I am a Firefighter/Paramedic.Our local Police back us up on lots of Calls from Violent OBS calls to DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, to attempted Suicide with a gun.I am always glad to see them. Our Police always show up and secure the scene for us. In defense of our Police officers, our local law enforcement respond to assist EMS and Fire on many calls, they could easily sit back on a QT parking lot at say screw it. Personally I think these guys are way underpaid, undermanned and sometimes unappreciated. After working with Police for the past 15 years I don't think an officer would utilize a citizen in a firefight situation unless he/she had absolutely no other option, way to big of a liability for the officer. I will say this as a CCW carrier I would not stand by idle and watch an officer/civilian be shot I would
Take action and suffer the consequences later.

 

[SniperCJ]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bigwheels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Come on man! In respect for others on this site, I'm pretty sure he was referring to the yelling @ the active shooter post above. Have some respect. </div></div>

If youve been around the Hide any length of time youd know Foul Mike has NO love for the Popo.

 

[SniperCJ]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EddieNFL</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ive seen how much 'training' CCW holders get in Texas. I'd rather not get shot by the CCW.</div></div>

Over the years I've competed with a number of LEOs... </div></div>

Ya, me too, but I HAVE to let *them* go in with me...

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

Well. This has turned into a little shit storm against Leo. That was certainly not my intention, & I apologise. I have had more than my share of bad experiences with leo's in the past, & I do tread lightly, & cautiously around them as a result. But I do still respect them, & even call one a friend. My issues with them have always been with an abuse of power. Unfortunately some who have the badge shouldn't, but I think all shouldn't be painted with the same brush. That said, I was just wanting to provoke an educational discussion on a scenario that seems to be getting more, & more likely. Also to try to get leo's to consider the possibility that a ccw could already be on scene defending themselves, & perhaps others when they arrive. I would not like to be shot while defending my life against a murderer, & be remembered as an acomplas to mayhem because I was seen with a gun by a freaked out cop.

 

[pwc001]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

Nothing against cops, but they have no idea who, you or I would be. He would not have time to find out, and that time would be wasted if he did. If I had no info to give, I would leave them to do their job, and keep my mouth shut. No offer to help, would not even speak to the officer if I was not spoken to first.

For all he knows, you could be waiting to kill him as soon as yall walked in the door, to buy your buddies a little extra time.

They have their jobs, I have mine.

If I had useful info, I would offer it, if he was not interested, then my hands would be tied.

If people I loved were inside, then I would NOT be outside. Anything else, and I would just be in the way.

 

[Slapchop]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Foul Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would not leave you on the side of the road, I would give you First Aid as best I could.
I would not assist you during the incident <span style="color: #FF0000">as you may take me to be one of the bad guys</span> and I would just leave you to do your job.
Regards, FM </div></div>

If we could only be so lucky. Maybe he'd mistake that scumbag house mouse Kraig for a perp also and take the both of yous out.

 

[RADcustom]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Foul Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would not leave you on the side of the road, I would give you First Aid as best I could.
I would not assist you during the incident <span style="color: #FF0000">as you may take me to be one of the bad guys</span> and I would just leave you to do your job.
Regards, FM </div></div>

If we could only be so lucky. Maybe he'd mistake that scumbag house mouse Kraig for a perp also and take the both of yous out. </div></div>

Tell us how you really feel.

 

[Foul Mike]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

Slappy, isn't it yous guys in NY speak?
As I posted, I would not help in any way other than First Aid. I would be getting in your way. How would you know who is good and who is bad?
Take the Police shooting in Edgewater by the Lakewood Police for an example. Happened a few weeks ago in Colo.
That involved only trained LEOs and one came out dead as a wedge, in a body bag, shot by another trained LEO who could not identify his fellow LEO and busted caps on him. Shot him dead as hell. He should be up for manslaughter as any other citizen would be, but we hear nothing like that. The Blue Line.
You would have to be a fool to get in any shooting situation involving the PD and I would not do it unless my family were involved, then all stops are out and don't get in my way.
When I hear LEO admit to a mistake, they will start to get credibility with me, make a mistake, own up to it and face the consequences that any common citizen faces, until then, know I love them. Regards, FM

 

[leprechaun]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

Fellas, Bear guide has pretty much summed up with a very good explanation of what would happen with most of the people I work with and they would handle it the same way.

I have been fortunate enough to haveso far survived 20 years in one of the top 20 deadliest city's in the country so violence is nothing new. His points are spot on with almost every cop I know and yes there is no legal requirement to announce yourself.Too much TV watching when it comes to that

 

[jeo556]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

As a CCW holder I've often wondered about assisting a LEO in the event that they were outgunned/outnumbered. I often think that although I would feel compelled to assist it would be a very tricky situation. Put yourself in the place of the LEO, one or more assailant is already shooting at/attacking them. In the case of a shooting the LEO would more than likely believe you to be an additional threat. And could you blame them? Same goes for the question at hand. A LEO shows up at a school shooting and there's joe-good guy hanging out at the front door. How does the LEO know this isn't the asshat shooting people just acting like a good samaritan?

On the other hand do you just withhold assistance and hope that the LEO can handle themselves until backup arrives? Theres not a wrong or right answer.

 

[DieselKinevel]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BearGuide</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shooter McGavin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Well the nice thing about that is the police have to inform you their there. They will shout "POLICE" drop the gun. This gives you a chance to comply and they get to sort it out later. </div></div>

Really? I missed that part in active shooter training. I have to announce my presence and tell an active shooter to "drop the gun" before I can engage?

Not to be a dick, but that is absolute misinformation. There is no duty to announce police presence or to order an active shooter to drop the gun. He has already shown his intent to commit violence, already shown a propensity to harm others. No requirement exists to give him a second chance. If I roll onto a school shooting, hear shots, hear screams, children running out, fire alarm blaring, I observe an individual with a firearm, I do not have to tell him I am LE. I am not there to get him to comply, I am not there to talk him down, I am not there to negotiate. I am there to stop his aggression with speed, surprise, violence of action. Nothing more, nothing less.

If a concerned CCW holder is in the parking lot, announces that he is armed, am I going to allow him to enter the school and help me? No way. Not because I don't trust your shooting, not because citizens with guns scare me, not because I don't think you can take care of business, not because I don't appreciate the offer, but because of liability. Guns don't scare administrators, people getting killed does not scare administrators, officers getting hurt or killed does not scare administrators, a CCW holder getting permission from a cop to accompany him into an active shooter situation would scare an administrator half to death and the ensuing lawsuits would end the career of said cop.

Am I going to be polite, courteous, and take the time to explain this to a well intentioned CCW holder who is meeting me at the scene of an active shooting? Probably not, sorry for the hurt feelings, but I am not that patient when responding. I will probably be asking you in a no nonsense way to help secure any children, start a head count, and inform any other responding units of my location as I am running through the front door. If you choose to follow me into the school, that is on you. Am I going to slow the tempo to threaten arrest or force you out, no, not hardly. Could you be charged later? Absolutely. Would I press the issue, no, not even close, but I guarantee you, the administration would. Not because you didn't do the right thing, mainly because of the pending lawsuits that are sure to arise.

This response may piss of the cop haters on the Hide, but it's just the way it is. </div></div>

Thanks, I was thinking the same thing. The active shooter training I went through is a lot different than dealing with your "typical" armed subject call. Active shooter = end the threat as fast as possible.

-Z

 

[chka]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

Any different feelings if the person approaching you was an off duty LEO? He has his badge, creds, and duty pistol. Would that change anyone's mind?

 

[Bowman]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chka</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any different feelings if the person approaching you was an off duty LEO? He has his badge, creds, and duty pistol. Would that change anyone's mind? </div></div>

I'd still rather not. In an optimal situation, everybody entering the structure would be geared, protected, armed with similar weaponry, tactical knowledge and communications equipment.

I would rather enter alone instead of having a portion of my attention on the off duty....especially if he's from a different agency. His/her tactics may be completely different.

The above response is in regards to an active shooter or a barricaded suspect. My response differs slightly if I am involved in an active shootout. I hesitate to verbalize what I would want a citizen to do if I was in a shootout because the answer may put somebody in harms way (which I never want somebody to do).

The citizen/bystander should always think of their (and their family's) safety before anybody elses.

 

[Switchblade]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

hahahahaha, if the guy is waiting while the shit is hitting the proverbial fan, put your gun away and go home, you can do not good here. Anyone I know with a CCW will have already advanced into the firing to try to stop the shithead. Marines and good Soldiers or Vets run TO THE FIGHT, not stand and wait for cops to get there. Pussies wait.
When it takes a CCW seconds to respond to a threat, it takes LEO minutes, critical minutes, to respond to same. When cops arrive and see the CCW, and the CCW sees the cops, that individual would do well to quickly place the gun on the ground and raise hands to show he/she is willing to comply because to a LEO you are just one more shooter and that CCW MUST be recognized as a non threat to LEO or people. In a panic situation with an active shooter, better hope the entire issue is done when the LEO get there so no guns are out except the ones lying on the ground from a dead criminal.
The bottom line though, is LEO does not want you there.
Some shithead does that on my campus and I can see him or wherever I am, I am running straight to his ass and going to do what I can to stop him. Running or hiding just is not my way, I run to the fight every time.

 

[patsim]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jerrrrstanley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would be yelling drop the gun as I took 4 pounds out of a 5 pound trigger pull. You would have a pound and about 0.1 seconds to comply.

Faced with that situation I would tell you to stay outside and direct any officers on where I went in at and tell you to eliminate any deadly threat if it came outside. I may get smoked first step in and the CCW holder be alone when bad guy steps out.

</div></div>

If you really are a cop, please turn in yuor badge and weapon, and find a new career. PLEASE!

 

[patsim]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bigwheels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe this is a stupid question, but I'm feeling brave.
For the LEO's here.
If you got a call saying multiple gunshots @ (insert school, mall, etc.) and no other info. When you arrive on scene you hear gunshots, & screams. A clean cut man in his 40's is waiting for you to exit your vehicle, sais I'm armed, & can help. Backup is several minutes away. Do you accept his offer? Why? Department policy, officer safety?
To CCW's here.
You are on scene when above situation unfolds. Would you offer to assist? Why? Don't want to get shot by freaked out cop? Could at least watch his back incase of multiple shooters?
Flame suit on. Have at it.

</div></div>

In my State of Indiana (which is considered pretty gun friendly), one would be committing a class-D felony by being on school property with a gun.

 

[Slapchop]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: patsim</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jerrrrstanley</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="color: #FF0000">I would be yelling drop the gun as I took 4 pounds out of a 5 pound trigger pull. You would have a pound and about 0.1 seconds to comply.

Faced with that situation I would tell you to stay outside and direct any officers on where I went in at and tell you to eliminate any deadly threat if it came outside. I may get smoked first step in and the CCW holder be alone when bad guy steps out. </span>

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If you really are a cop, please turn in yuor badge and weapon, and find a new career. PLEASE! </div></div>

That made me LOL

 

[Jerrrrstanley]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

Tell you what patsim get or borrow 2 airsoft guns and find you a buddy. Have your friend (bad guy) stand there with his muzzle down and you (cop) muzzle your buddy demanding him to drop his gun. Let your friend make his move to shoot and you shoot only when you see him move. Your shots will break about the same time. Try this with a muzzle to your own head (suicide) and make your move and definitely do it with you and the bad guy in a Mexican standoff pointing guns at each other. Remember the cop can't shoot till the bad guy makes his move.
We done this with simunition rifles and pistols and the good guy always got shot. Moral or the story. I'm not dying because I feel the need to give the bad guy a chance to surrender. If he wants to surrender he will as soon as he sees me. If he's not surrendering then he's planning on killing me. If I'm off duty and I see an on duty officer, even one I work with everyday, I would surrender and deck my weapon until I know he knows I'm a friendly.

 

[Bigwheels]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

I'll assume that everyone here would go in, & take care of business if they were on scene before leo arrived, so my described scenario assumes you arrived at the same time, & rather than being shot in the back by the responding leo who just watched you run into a school with a gun, you communicated first.
It is also a crime here to possess a gun on school grounds, but given the said circumstances I'd not be concerned about that, & anyone who would charge me after the fact should be fired.

 

[M25BeastShooter]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

As a LEO the issue of liability and training all comes into factor. To be honest in my area I'm not sure if all of the LEO's have been trained in Active shooter response but they have been trained in basic entry skills. As far as liability the Officer's agency is going to be the final call on that.

As far as a CCW CIVILIAN, the key word is CIVILIAN. Under most states and CCW training the holder is only responsible for the defense of themselves. The involvement into events that do not directly pose a threat to them leaves them in a very grey area of liability.

Now training, I don't know of any CCW programs that teach any tactics or techniques that address the Active Shooter. So I would not feel comfortable having a civilian "Tag along" as I would constantly be having to watch out for him, placing my safety at risk.

At best I would have him remain outside by his vehicle, or a safe location and provide information to the follow on LEO's as they arrive on scene. As after informing 911 and requesting tactical response I would be in the location seeking out the shooter as my training dictates. Cell phone on, Badge or other LEO ID out and armed moving tactically to the threat.

 

[patsim]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jerrrrstanley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tell you what patsim get or borrow 2 airsoft guns and find you a buddy. Have your friend (bad guy) stand there with his muzzle down and you (cop) muzzle your buddy demanding him to drop his gun. Let your friend make his move to shoot and you shoot only when you see him move. Your shots will break about the same time. Try this with a muzzle to your own head (suicide) and make your move and definitely do it with you and the bad guy in a Mexican standoff pointing guns at each other. Remember the cop can't shoot till the bad guy makes his move.
We done this with simunition rifles and pistols and the good guy always got shot. Moral or the story. <span style="color: #FF0000">I'm not dying because I feel the need to give the bad guy a chance to surrender</span>. If he wants to surrender he will as soon as he sees me. If he's not surrendering then he's planning on killing me. If I'm off duty and I see an on duty officer, even one I work with everyday, I would surrender and deck my weapon until I know he knows I'm a friendly. </div></div>

Unconvincing.

(In red) That's the problem I have with your attitude: The citizen in question was not the "bad guy",

 

[Jerrrrstanley]

Re: Curious LEO, & CCW

Unconvinced or not I still urge you to try it. I urge anyone who has never done that drill to give it a go. Doing it will convince you.
I think my attitude is getting mistranslated. I have the responsibility to decide whether you are a threat or not and make my move a split second to save my life or others. Now if you are in a school with a gun it already looks bad on your part. It is a chance you take getting involved and would be a chance I would take being off duty faced with the same situation. If you choose to get involved be prepared to be confronted by law enforcement and be quick to surrender. Any LEO would assume you are a bad guy if there is an active shooter and you are in the school with a gun. Its on you to show you are a good guy because we can't read minds. Now I'm not going to shoot you based only because you are armed inside a school, but you damn sure will have my attention and my acog trained on you.