Iron sights on 1903s

[Anvil_X]

I'm currently on the market for an M1903 for use as a hunting rifle and was wondering if I could get y'all to sound off on something-
I've got the decision between an 03A1 and an 03A3, obviously the 03A3 has a peep to which I am well accustomed, and the 03A1 is a Ladder.
(I know it's titled "Vintage SNIPER Rifles", but figured this is where the guys who liked "Nice Old Guns" hang out)
So I read The TM, and from what I gather, that Ladder sight has some Rockin' features on it that would come in handy out in the field. I was kinda surprised by the Battle Zero being 547 yards(14 inches high at 100-WOW!-), but overall it seems pretty neat-o.
I'm looking to use this as my general purpose rifle(moose, caribou, blacktail, Black Bear, ...sheep?.., and just-in-case for Brownies) so the ranges will be going from 50 yards to as far as I feel comfortable.

seeing as how I've never used a Ladder sight, which would you suggest I use- 03A1 with Ladder, or 03A3 with peep- and why?

Scope isn't an option, I'd like to keep the rifle as-is. Besides, if I need glass, I'd just grab my sporterized K98

Thanks for the input
Tien Bien

 

[pmclaine]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

The 1903 sight is a marvel in utility. If you have a WWI vintage it even has a notch at the very top for lobbing 30-06 out to 1800 yards - Good Luck with that it was meant for volley fire everyone on line and say a prayer.

The odd number 547 yards came about because these rifles were designed for the 30-03 cartridge. They never reregistered the BZO when they changed to 30-06.

The battle sight was meant to hit a human somewhere from knees to neck if you aim at the belt buckle. The Marines tried a different aperature and front blade that changed the BZO of the battle sight to 200 yards. The USMC version is a great battle sight but it loses a little on targets. Bill Bentz sells a replica of the USMC sights

I use the standard aperature/skinny blade for black bullseye shooting on a KD range. Its slow but the sights are very accurate. Your eyes need to be up to speed when shooting the standard aperatire skinny blade. Mine arent but I do okay.

If you really want target accuracy with an 03 you need to have a sight micrometer. Creedmore sells a replica of the PJ Ohare sight micrometer. They are pricey $125 plus if I recall correctly. Original PJ Ohare micrometers can be found and the sell $150-$200.

Give it a try but dont expect the ranges on the ladder and the front sight to be in agreement. You can make it so but unless you check it over the decades something has probably changed.

An A3 is way more user friendly. For hunting it would be easier for picking up the sights. The A3 is plenty accurate and most people shooting matches prefer them, and score very well.

Still I like the workmanship of the 03's and the challenge of the ladder sight.

 

[Joop]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

Having used both, I've always found the ladder sight to be slightly more precise. However, it takes longer to acquire the target and they are very difficult to see in all but the best lighting conditions. For a hunting rifle with irons, I would go with the A3. That's just my opinion, though.

For Battle Zero, that's going to change with the load you choose, anyway, so you won't know where you're at until you get out and test your hunting load for dope at various ranges.

 

[Former0302]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

Personally, for a hunting rifle I'd go with the 1903A3 for the reason stated above (e.g. target acquisition is faster and easier in less than perfect light conditions).

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

I shoot both, the '03 would be much better for me. Its faster.

I also like the wider front sight, (0.070), probably because of my old eyes.

But again this may because of 35 years of shooting high power with the post front/apeture rear.

Something a bit different is my 1901 sights on my M1898 Krag, it has the peep and notch sight (actually three different notch sights).

 

[Powder_Burns]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

The A3 peep has elevation notches as well, marked from 100 to 800yd.

 

[Anvil_X]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

The A3 is elevation adjustable!? nice.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

Yeap, adjustable for elevation and windage.

 

[Anvil_X]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

I've been sifting through youtube for videos on how to adjust elevation, and reading through TM 9-1270 and have yet to see anybody adjust the elevation. the knob for windage is obvious, but I cannot for the life of me see how to shift elevation on the 03A3. is there a trick to it, or am I just blind? my goal is not to be able to zero it, thats a given, but rather for those times when I'm rolling around with M2 ball wolf hunting and want to have the ladder style utility ie: the same effect as flipping up the 03A1 ladder and setting the peep to the range etc.

 

[Anvil_X]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

Ok, just got back from a trip to Fulton Armory in Athens GA. if anybody's in that area and wants to buy a 1903 or 03A3, they've got some. 1903 is 845 bucks. Remington. Barrel manufactured september 1942. 03A3 is 1145 bucks, Remington. Barrel manufactured September 43. Actions smooth as butter, both are straight stock. These things look like they just came out of a cosmoline cocoon, mint condition.

Anywho, I answered my own question on the elevation adjustment on the A3. finger adjustment. Outstanding design.

Oh yeah, and sweet crickets that place was packed to the gills with people! and the shelves looked like they had been looted, no Black Rifles, M1As, only saw 1 Mini 14 on the shelf, and the pump shotguns were flyin off the shelf. Which of course left me and my brother as the only guys in the Nice Old Gun section of the store.

 

[pmclaine]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

Those prices are a bit high. I havent checked since the crime but maybe it has had an effect on 03's.

Check the CMP or Culvers Shooting Page Forums WTS section you may find a deal.

Typically A3's sell for less than 03's assuming equal condition.

 

[Anvil_X]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

yeah, I can get em cheaper back home in Alaska, but I figured it was worth letting you guys know there were a few available. The shop across the street from my house in Anchortown is selling Smith-corona A3s for 250 bucks cheaper.

 

[Anvil_X]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

Just checked with Ammo King on Boniface in Anchorage- 1903A3 with 2 band rifled barrel circa 1944 is 995 bucks. Gunrunners on Northern Lights has a Rock Island 1903, old as hell(buddy's checking the serial # for me while I'm here in GA) $699.

 

[MJ1]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

Wake up boys. Every thing was cheaper yesterday and yesterday is gone.

$1200~$1900 for decent pre-war is common today. But you can wait,,LOL.

 

[Anvil_X]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

sounds like I'll be making out with a bargain with the ones I'm lookin at. Also- how does one remove the bolt?
I deactivated the Magazine cutoff, then looked for a lever (like on Mauser 98s), didn't find anything. do I flip the switch again with the bolt fully retracted to remove it?

 

[MJ1]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

Put the cut-off at half mast. I thought you were kidding at first.

 

[Anvil_X]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

nope, totally not kidding. Only bolt actions I've owned so far are Savage and Mauser, and they're pretty different in bolt removal methods

 

[Anvil_X]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

Just to bring some closure to the thread, I am now the proud owner of a Smith-Corona M1903A3 manufactured in the summer of 1943. I thank you all for your contributions to my decision, cash ended up making the call for me. Gunrunners upped the price of that beautiful Rock Island rifle out of my price range. They currently have at least 3 in stock, all M1903, two of them are springfield, 1 RIA, the other I didn't check. One of them even has the original fingergroove stock.

I'm kinda pooped that I don't get to bring an old warrior back to life and take her out on some new adventures, but it'll still be as neat taking this new puppy out to give her some history.

Hope to one day inherit the Springfield that my Great Grandfather carried at The Marne, but until then.....

Have a great week, and thanks again for the info!
Tien Bien

 

[Former0302]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

Congratulations! Enjoy it, the 1903 in all it's variants is a wonderful rifle.

In regards to disassembly / reassembly, this link might be helpful:

http://www.surplusrifle.com/03a3/rifledisassemble/index.asp

 

[Former0302]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

And also, pics?

 

[MJ1]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

Good luck and enjoy.

 

[Anvil_X]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

So there she is, sorry it took so long, I hope the below picture explains why I was away from the computer all day.

 

[Former0302]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

That is one clean looking Springfield! Looks awesome.

 

[pmclaine]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Anvil Xray</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

So there she is, sorry it took so long, I hope the below picture explains why I was away from the computer all day.

</div></div>

When people post pictures I like to play forensic investigator and look at the photos to come up with a story.

I'm guessing you are not married or the photos were taken at a hunting camp or a single friends house.

Nice rifle. If you start doing extended shooting sessions I'd really like a "C" stock but thats a beautiful rifle as it sits.

 

[81Z4ME]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

If you're a bigger guy with longer arms you might find an 03A3 fits you better. My 03 is nice and accurate but the buttstock is so short I just can't get comfortable shooting it and it works my cheek over (stock so short, for me, that my face/nose is right up on the back of the receiver and I can't get my thumb over the top of the stock for a cheekrest.

The 03A3 has a longer buttstock and fits me much better. Same with the 03A4.

You can replace the stock on your 03 if you need to, I just left mine original.

 

[Anvil_X]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

LOL yeah I'm single, I don't know what told you first, the bed made out of 2X4s, the blood-soaked pants holding the rifle upright, the ammo on the bed... Man, in that light I take single to a vulgar level. Swear to God that moose last night was the easiest one we'll ever get- she dropped dead like 30 yards from the road and had her in the truck less than an hour after Range Control performed their on-site inspection.

I would have preferred the C stock too, but it wasn't an option at the time. I think I'll try the straight stock for a while to see if I like it. The Length of pull is a little short for me right now, (by maybe half an inch or so it's not a big deal) overall I really like the rifle just the way it is.

 

[Former0302]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

Try a slip on recoil pad.

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/Products/932590.htm

I've never used one cause I'm a smaller guy and never had problems with length of pull, but this should be a relatively cheap way to add some length to your stock. Side bonus, might make it a little more comfortable to shoot if you're shooting it a lot (although I don't think .30/06 is all that punishing anyway).

 

[Anvil_X]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

That'll do it. had a blast with the rifle at the range today, took 2 rounds to confirm zero, then went to the 300 meter range and played "dueling banjos" on the gong with my buddy borrowing my M1A.
I was expecting a lot more recoil, and once I got settled in I didn't even notice the short L-O-P.

I'm now torn between my M1A and my M1903 as to which is my favorite.

 

[pmclaine]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Anvil Xray</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LOL yeah I'm single, I don't know what told you first, the bed made out of 2X4s, the blood-soaked pants holding the rifle upright, the ammo on the bed... Man, in that light I take single to a vulgar level. Swear to God that moose last night was the easiest one we'll ever get- she dropped dead like 30 yards from the road and had her in the truck less than an hour after Range Control performed their on-site inspection.

I would have preferred the C stock too, but it wasn't an option at the time. I think I'll try the straight stock for a while to see if I like it. The Length of pull is a little short for me right now, (by maybe half an inch or so it's not a big deal) overall I really like the rifle just the way it is. </div></div>

Mainly the bloody pants on the bed and the unit patch quilt. Both would never fly in "HER" nest. Fortunately she leaves my reloading bench and my safe alone.

 

[Anvil_X]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pmclaine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

</div></div>

do those 1903A1s have sight protectors on them?

 

[pmclaine]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Anvil Xray</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pmclaine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

</div></div>

do those 1903A1s have sight protectors on them? </div></div>

The lower one has front and rear PJ Ohare sight covers. The top one has a USMC (big loop) sight protector on it. I was able to pick up a second set of PJ Ohare covers for the top rifle. The PJ Ohare front covers will not work with any sort of GI front protector.

There was a PJ Ohare rear sight cover on the CMP wts forum recently. I think they are neat accessories.

Before Newtown I used to enjoy looking on these forums to find ammo and crap like that to buy. Now all I do is obsess over the political fight. Cant wait to get back to my regular hobby and I hope the survivors of Newtown can heal and get back to some semblence of a happy life.

 

[Anvil_X]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

Thats a big 10-4. I stopped watching TV months ago, and after that atrocity, I even had to turn off NPR. The Bear Pit and S-2 get me so spun up now that I just stopped scrolling down below hunting and fishing.

I'm gonna have to check out those front sight hoods at some point, my A3's front sight blade just looks so exposed when its just hanging out there in the breeze. Leave it to The Marine Corps to come up with a common sense thing like that hood.

 

[pmclaine]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Anvil Xray</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm gonna have to check out those front sight hoods at some point, my A3's front sight blade just looks so exposed when its just hanging out there in the breeze. Leave it to The Marine Corps to come up with a common sense thing like that hood. </div></div>

Originals come up for sale every now and than for about $80. A gentleman (Bill Bentz) makes repro USMC sights for the 1903, wide front USMC style sights for the A3, and the hood. The Hood will work on your A3.

The nice thing about the USMC hood is that

a. It doesnt interfere with your sight picture like the small GI hood

b. It acts as another reference. Using it on my 1903 the circumfrence of he big ring lined up with the opening of the aperature. If I saw any of the front ring in my sight picture I knew my sights were not aligned.

The USMC sightsd were a success/failure story.

On the 1903 they make it a much better battle rifle. The complete system includes a .10 rear aperature, a .10 wide backcut front sight, and the big ring protector. The front sight was easier to see, it changed the BZO from 547 yards to 200, the big aperature is easier to use, especiaslly in poor light/weather, when the leaf is up.

Downside was (and I found this with my own testing) that slightly detuning the sights allowed better minute of man use but not as good at the KD range. Where do you think brass cares about looking good - combat or in garrison?

I'll come back with a link to my shooting tests and Ill see if I can get Bill Bentz email address. He also makes USMC style front sights for the A3 that are very nice.

 

[pmclaine]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

Here is my sight comparison. I realize my rifle is 03 and yours is A3 but the front sight info may be interesting. Excuse my sloppy shooting.

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=28377

I'll come back and edit this with Bill Bentz contact info. If you email him he will answer your questions and has provided pictures of his sights/hoods when requested.

Here you go.

[email protected]

 

[Anvil_X]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

dang, thats a lot to think about. I think I'll be sticking with my standard apertures and blade, and after that horror story, using LocTite on the front blade pin! I don't plan on bringing the rifle out into any crazy places yet, so I still have some time to look it over and adjust accordingly.

 

[pmclaine]

Re: Iron sights on 1903s

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Anvil Xray</div><div class="ubbcode-body">dang, thats a lot to think about. I think I'll be sticking with my standard apertures and blade, and after that horror story, using LocTite on the front blade pin! I don't plan on bringing the rifle out into any crazy places yet, so I still have some time to look it over and adjust accordingly.
</div></div>

You will be fine. Dont let someones horror story dissuade you.

Still you are making the right decision stick with what you have until you really find a need to change.