Amsec safes, need advice

[redneckbmxer24]

I'm looking at the AMSEC SF and BF series. Both have relockers and hard plates so either should withstand a punch or drill attack. Because of location my thinking is if a burglar can get into one than he can get into the other because he won't be the average burglar at that point.

The 60min vs 90min fire rating also doesn't seem like any sort of an advantage to me. I live in the city with two paid fire department within a couple miles of me and a lot of neighbors so I don't see response time being that long considering somebody is almost always home to call. The safe also isn't in the ideal spot to burn being up against concrete walls in a basement with no windows near by so I don't see it being a concerned in a fully involved fire.

I've got a local shop that has two SF's in stock and they can get me a BF in a couple weeks. One is a older SF6030 in textured black that doesn't come with the door organizer and only has one bolt top and bottom vs two of them on the newer models. It's $1468 and weighs around 800lbs. The other is a SF6032 that's a newer one in textured tan which I really like and it has the door organizer and two bolts top and bottom for $1750. It's got a electronic lock but they said they would swap it for the mechanical lock on the 6030 if I want.

They can get me a BF6032 for $2500 in textured black in a couple weeks but if I get a tan one which is what I really want it would be 6-8 weeks. I can't wait that long though so that option is out. I want to stick with the 6032 size in whichever I get because it's more than plenty extra storage and it will recess that much further behind the front of my Diebold and make it that much hard to pry the door.

I've looked into sturdy safe but there quote of 8 weeks for building it and another week for delivery is longer than I can wait. I like that for $2575 I can get exactly what I want but I don't think I really need it either.

I've looked at others as well but I'm pretty set on an AMSEC. So what's your take? I'm seriously considering buying the SF6032 they have in stock but I would like to hear opinions.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Re: Amsec safes, need advice

BF series is built like a commercial safe, poured aggregate between two steel shells. While the barrier isn't a security aggregate, I'd trust that method of fire barrier protection over fireboard. You also get a 1/2" steel plate in the door construction. I'd try waiting if possible.

 

[zenghost]

Re: Amsec safes, need advice

I would wait for the BF. Lot's of other technical gurus know the details (as evidenced from above).

I bought a BF series 6032 several months ago. Had the electronic lock swapped out for a decent Sargent combo dial etc. It was professionally installed into my first floor closet (after a professional engineer's analysis of the loading) and I am very pleased with the safe and the install. I am glad a "pro" did the install because I now realize how much I might have otherwise damaged doing it as an amateur. My observation was there is considerably more to doing it well well (and efficiently) than meets the eye.

I think the Amsec BF series hits a "sweet spot" for residential security containers (or whatever they are called). Some acquaintances who own Liberty and other such similar RSCs probably think I paid too much for the Amsec, but I think it was the best choice for me. I did not have more of a budget to spend, nor could I have likely gotten away with a Graffunder that would probably have caused more concern as far as floor loading.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Re: Amsec safes, need advice

The weight isn't a concern as long as I can unload it with a few people and get it in the house with a refrigerator cart. I think 1200lbs would be the absolute most I would feel comfortable unloading without equipment. It's going in a basement door and will be on a 6" slab so weight isnt a concern there either.

I'm going to call around and see if I can find a BF6032 in textured sandstone in stock anywhere. That's the safe I'm really set on but for the right deal I'd pay a little extra for a 6030. When I called back today to ask a few more questions the owner offered me the SF6032 at a even more discounted price without even asking. He said he also has no problem ordering me a BF and said he would order some other safes with it to save both of us some money on freight. I've gotta keep it under $2500 unless a sweet deal on a 6030 is available. $2900 with freight is the best I've found though. I could maybe go $2700 on one but $2900 is stretching it too far.

 

[BadDogPSD]

Re: Amsec safes, need advice

Have you checked with thesafeplace.com? They have great prices on AmSec safes.

I just priced a base BF6030 and it would be less than $2500 TYD.

 

[Strykervet]

Re: Amsec safes, need advice

When UL tests safes, they usually defeat the fire safes with a fire axe, believe it or not (these aren't your usual axes). I've seen the test, it ain't pretty, and those boys get in it fast, so that rating means something.

Were I you, I'd look on Craigslist. I JUST missed out on a safe similar to what you describe you have for around $1000. THAT is the THE way to go, way better than a gun safe, and the word "Diebold" (never say die) tells the crooks to fuck right off. (Even better is the AA UL rated insured diamond vaults I did security on, but that's another story). Even then, they put the "valuables" in a safe inside the vault, if that tells you anything.

But if you get a regular gun safe, look up those attack ratings. Better yet, find the UL video showing how they get those numbers. Fire safes are just fire safes, they won't hold up to a frontal attack either. That door isn't plate, it is sheet with drywall inside. Fire axe is all you need to defeat it.

(edit) Most gun safes are dual purpose when they have plate doors and sufficiently thick walls, but folks tend to confuse the two and assume any gun safe will stand up to a frontal attack. I'm assuming you still want frontal resistance based on your post. Also, don't forget about the top or back or good anchors. Ripping out some drywall or 2x4's to get to the back isn't really a problem for some crooks, and the weight of the door makes it easy to rock it over and rip out weak anchors (you usually need to pry it, but no problem there either). Done thousands of security systems, so I've pretty much seen it all. Security expos (used to, don't know about now) would demo their gear and pay anyone who could defeat it under UL times. Never seen it happen without prior planning and knowledge.

It doesn't matter WHO makes the safe really, so much as the rating UL gives it, that is most important. If it has no UL rating at all, don't buy it at all.

Hope that helps.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Re: Amsec safes, need advice

American Security's BF line is actually one of the only gun safes on the market that actually has a plate door. It's an honest 1/2" thick steel plate. No other gun safe company can brag about that. It's also the only gun safe that uses a commercial composite construction for the firefill which is how the pros do it. Gun safe manufacturers don't do it because it requires a lot more manufacturing equipment. Since you said the body would be well-protected, offering a thief a 1/2" plate steel door with no room to pry would be a barrier that'll defeat most criminals.

If I had to get a consumer-grade gun safe, it would be an AMSEC BF or a Griffin safe which has a door comprised of two 1/4" plates and also a concrete composite fill on the door and body. There are only two other turn-key gun safe alternatives: Brown or Graffunder and they're much more expensive.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Re: Amsec safes, need advice

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Strykervet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Were I you, I'd look on Craigslist. I JUST missed out on a safe similar to what you describe you have for around $1000. THAT is the THE way to go, way better than a gun safe, and the word "Diebold" (never say die) tells the crooks to fuck right off. (Even better is the AA UL rated insured diamond vaults I did security on, but that's another story). Even then, they put the "valuables" in a safe inside the vault, if that tells you anything.

But if you get a regular gun safe, look up those attack ratings. Better yet, find the UL video showing how they get those numbers. Fire safes are just fire safes, they won't hold up to a frontal attack either. That door isn't plate, it is sheet with drywall inside. Fire axe is all you need to defeat it.

</div></div>

I got a very good deal on my diebold, just had to drive to Brooklyn, NY to get it. It seems a lot of people will almost pay you to remove some of these big safes they don't need anymore. Not sure why, gun owner or not everybody can use a good safe.

All of the AMSEC safes use steel plate on the door. According to their site the TF uses 3/16", the SF 1/4", and the BF's are 1/2". I saw several SF's, a few TF's and a BF in person the other day and they definitely have steel plate doors. They're not the composite filled ones like other RSC's I've seen. That's one of the reasons I was so impressed by just the SF line. Even the TF's were great quality and had the 3/16" plate door but the 30 minute fire rating is lower than what I'm looking for.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Re: Amsec safes, need advice

Well I've decided on a BF 6030. I found a local place that has one in stock but I'm going to call a few more places tomorrow.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Re: Amsec safes, need advice

"Composite" is a term the gun safe industry abuses and steals. A real composite safe in the commercial safe world has a concrete aggregate poured between an inner and outer steel shell. A fire safe tends to pour composite aggregate between an inner and outer plastic shell. The "composite" that gun safes refer to is an outer steel shell, layers of drywall, and carpet and pressboard that create the interior.

The BF has a true composite construction. If you remove the gun safe interior, you'll find an inner steel shell. What you sacrifice in the AMSEC lines below the BF is stepping away from composite construction and going to a traditional gun safe with one steel outer sheet metal shell packed with drywall. There is a reason why commercial safes don't use drywall (or even ceramic wool) for fire protection.

A 1/2" thick steel door is the minimum required by an entry-level B-rate constructed safe. 1/4" plate steel body and 1/2" plate steel door.

The cheapest I've seen a BF6030 on the west coast is $2,199.00 plus shipping. Given the shipping distance, it won't be less than $2500 that your guy quoted.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Re: Amsec safes, need advice

$2500 was actually for a BF6032, I didn't have him price me a 6030. I found a local place that has a BF6030 with high gloss green upgraded paint for $3300 "on sale" that somebody didn't want but this place charges full MSRP for safes + $250 freight for the safes they already have stocked. I'm going to offer them $2700 OTD since that's what I can get the same thing with the same finish for delivered online. I'm going to call a few other places as well. If they won't budge and nobody else has a reasonably priced one in stock then I'm going to order a BF6030 how I want online. I've found one place that's $2507 delivered for it exactly how I want with textured sandstone finish and brass hardware.

 

[Strykervet]

Re: Amsec safes, need advice

Okay, I remember the gun safe I had a while back. It was a smaller one, about the size of a standard apartment sized refrigerator, and it was a Heritage. Give these a look before you buy:

http://www.heritagesafe.com/

I went with their higher end model because it was the best one I could find, best one Sportco had (and they have or had a really good selection). This baby has a 3/4" plate door and the fire rating was 90min. (now it is 125!). It came with a very nice mirror gloss black auto finish, but you can custom order them whatever. Had a six digit digital combo and plate glass re-locker. If you get one from a showroom, ask for a scratched/dented/returned model (unless you are gonna be picky about the finish) and they sometimes are a lot less. The Heritage has large, heavy locking bolts on all four sides, and though it doesn't really matter much due to that, it has the hinges mounted inside. They cantilever the door out very smoothly, as it were, such that it doesn't occlude the opening of the safe doorway.

They have a lifetime warranty, provide lost combo service, good customer service if you ever need them, and I think the warranty is transferable (don't quote me on that) so buying used is more attractive still. Not sure if they pay out or replace it if it is fully defeated, but if I recall right, they will do something (again, don't quote me on that). I recall them having a stellar warranty and standing behind their products.

Price was about $2500, IIRC. We pay no sales tax on gunsafes here, so that keeps the price down some, and I think it had a "scratch" on the side (turned out to be just a scuff) and that brought it down more. I sold it on Craigslist when we had to move into an apt. unexpectedly (less than a year after buying it!) for $1600.

This baby is heavy though, and without anchors it BARELY doesn't tip when the door is opened.

Killer score on the Diebold. I know, when you can find one, it does seem like they give them away. Most times, someone moves into a business and it is in the way, and most times, they'd like to keep it until they call the safe movers and get a quote. So they sell 'em cheap... Safes, for some reason, have a very low resale value considering what they do, how long they last, and how little wear they are subject to. I don't get it.

Oh, and for fire, not exactly sure about this, but I'd wager drywall is better than thin concrete for fire protection. This is because drywall has a significant amount of water in it (why it is so heavy) and that has to evaporate off at 212deg. before it can even start to burn itself.

 

[Strykervet]

Re: Amsec safes, need advice

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cesiumsponge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">American Security's BF line is actually one of the only gun safes on the market that actually has a plate door. It's an honest 1/2" thick steel plate. No other gun safe company can brag about that. It's also the only gun safe that uses a commercial composite construction for the firefill which is how the pros do it. Gun safe manufacturers don't do it because it requires a lot more manufacturing equipment. Since you said the body would be well-protected, offering a thief a 1/2" plate steel door with no room to pry would be a barrier that'll defeat most criminals.

If I had to get a consumer-grade gun safe, it would be an AMSEC BF or a Griffin safe which has a door comprised of two 1/4" plates and also a concrete composite fill on the door and body. There are only two other turn-key gun safe alternatives: Brown or Graffunder and they're much more expensive.
</div></div>

You should go down to Sportco in Fife and look at the Heritage Ultimate when you get a chance.

Yeah, for the OP, it'll likely cost a bit more than the Amsec if you can't get a scratch/dent, have to pay tax, go with the auto finish and digital keypad, etc., none of which are really important unless it is in a livng space as a show piece, or you just want the digital keypad. Paying tax would be important, but no real choice on that one --unless you are close to a neighboring state which does so.

Also, the Heritage as I recall, had not only the thickest door plate and highest UL ratings, but also the most robust locking pins/mechanisms. Not many gun safes fully lock on the hinge side, as well as the other three sides.

 

[jeo556]

Re: Amsec safes, need advice

Couple of points. Although I you haven't menetioned Sturdy safe they do offer something very valuable. A ton of videos on thier youtube channel showing the average joe how to move a safe with little to no trouble. I heeded their advice and used the wooden dowel method and the move was as smooth as butter. I also recently purchased a AMSEC BF and after some serious investigation I found that internet dealers smoked the price of every local guy, even after I asked them to match a price. I'd look at Safe & Vault Store price. They were great to work with, the devilery was seemless and they had the best price that I could find at the time. To top it all off the picture that they showed on their website was a differnet color that the actualt product, when I inquired about this error they immediately offered a $200 rebate. How's that for customer service!

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Re: Amsec safes, need advice

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Strykervet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay, I remember the gun safe I had a while back. It was a smaller one, about the size of a standard apartment sized refrigerator, and it was a Heritage. Give these a look before you buy:

http://www.heritagesafe.com/

I went with their higher end model because it was the best one I could find, best one Sportco had (and they have or had a really good selection). This baby has a 3/4" plate door and the fire rating was 90min. (now it is 125!). It came with a very nice mirror gloss black auto finish, but you can custom order them whatever. Had a six digit digital combo and plate glass re-locker. If you get one from a showroom, ask for a scratched/dented/returned model (unless you are gonna be picky about the finish) and they sometimes are a lot less. The Heritage has large, heavy locking bolts on all four sides, and though it doesn't really matter much due to that, it has the hinges mounted inside. They cantilever the door out very smoothly, as it were, such that it doesn't occlude the opening of the safe doorway.

They have a lifetime warranty, provide lost combo service, good customer service if you ever need them, and I think the warranty is transferable (don't quote me on that) so buying used is more attractive still. Not sure if they pay out or replace it if it is fully defeated, but if I recall right, they will do something (again, don't quote me on that). I recall them having a stellar warranty and standing behind their products.

Oh, and for fire, not exactly sure about this, but I'd wager drywall is better than thin concrete for fire protection. This is because drywall has a significant amount of water in it (why it is so heavy) and that has to evaporate off at 212deg. before it can even start to burn itself. </div></div>

I have a heritage legacy in another room and I wouldn't buy another. About a year after I bought it new the shelving brackets pulled right from the ammo load. I called their customer service who told me I probably had too much weight on the shelves and it probably wouldn't be warrantied. Before I even told them what was on the shelves they were looking for a way out of repair or replacement. They wanted to send a local tech to inspect it and wanted me to leave my guns and ammo as it was when the shelving collapsed. I had a problem showing some local who knows how to break into them what I had and where my well hidden safe was so I declined and built heavy duty shelved out of 2x3 legs and 5/8" plywood. It works ok but after that experience I can't ever give a company like that my money twice.

The door isn't 3/4" plate BTW. It's 1/8" steel wrapped around drywall. That's what the dealer I bought it from told me and what heritage confirmed. It's the same method most other RSC makers use except a little thinner overall.

I'm really intrigued by the Amsec solid plate door they use on all of their safes. I've decided to go with a BF series not just for the 1/2" plate but because it's made in the US unlike the SF and TF lines as well as it being a poured concrete composite. I also like the steel construction inside and out, it would be much hard to pry the bolts passed it unlike the thin metal lip on the TF and SF as well as most other RSC's.

I'm no expert on fire insulation, I only know what I've read. What I've read indicates drywall is a very poor insulator because of moisture. It holds moisture which turns into steam when the safe is heated up and raises the inside temp faster than other insulators. I also can't find a single true "safe" that uses drywall for insulation so that tells me something. My Diebold and most other high end units use some sort of concrete mixture.

 

[RC2469]

Re: Amsec safes, need advice

Verify UL rating. If you're happy with less than TRTL, so be it. I wouldn't be. If you have high end bolt guns, optics, jewelry, precious metals, etc., it seems easy to me to justify the expense. I've found refurbished TRTL units for 1/2 new cost.

I was recently at a friends shop working on some toys. While his gun safe was open, I observed easily $60k-$70K in merchandise. I understand no safe is perfect, but I cringed at the thought of how easily his safe would be to get into.

Also, some insurance companies give discounted rates if valuables are kept in higher rated safes.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Re: Amsec safes, need advice

As the OP says I have a TL rated diebold which is as good as it gets, that's where all the expensive stuff will say. I just need an additional unit because the other two are full.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Re: Amsec safes, need advice

I've seen the Ultimate by Heritage. I'd rather grab their Barrett-branded AMSEC BF. At one point I was going to order an AMSEC AMVAULT TL-30 commercial safe through Sportco and do my own interior but I ended up coming across something else. Sportco has very good pricing.

There is a big price jump when going from TL to TRTL safes. Also don't forget the x6 modifier. Generally I feel comfortable on gun storage by spending about 10%-15% of the stored value on the safe. Most people don't do that though. Since the OP already has a TL-rated safe and looked specifically for a RSC to put his lower-valued firearms as overspill from his main high-value safe, I think the BF gives the most security for the dollars spent, given the location of the install.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Re: Amsec safes, need advice

My heritage has never wowed me either. It did when I bight it when i was a teenager because I knew nothing about safes, I got a good sales pitch and it was almost $3k so I thought it must be good. A few years ago I bought one of the silver and black stack on total defense safes as a second safe. I was as impressed with it as I was my heritage. The shelves never collapsed from load and the handle had a lot less slop in it. The heritage is prettier than it was but that's to be expected if the price is almost 5X as much. I sold that stack on to a friend for a good price when I picked ip my diebold although I probably should have kept it.

I also agree on making a good investment to protect your investment and that most people don't. I know people who have as much invested in guns as I do and keep their stuff in $100 gun locker. You can pop one of those things open in a few minutes with a screw driver. I also know people who have thousands of dollars in guns and have no sort of protection at all aside from a locked from door. We all know how well those stop thieves.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Re: Amsec safes, need advice

I figured I would update this post.

I got a call from thesafeplace.com today saying the safe I ordered (BF6030 sandstone, brass hardware, mechanical lock) was in stock and ready to ship. They also informed me for the same price I can get the new 2013 version which has 11ga outer steel like the 2012's but the inside layer of the new ones are 11ga as well instead of 16ga. I opted to wait the 6 weeks to get the thicker inner steel. Same cost and just a little bit longer wait, why not.

It gives me a bit more time to prepare to move this beast in too.

 

[BigJohn141]

Re: Amsec safes, need advice

Not to hijack the thread but I am enjoying all the safe talk as I am in the market. I too have been looking at the BF series and think that it is a good choice, now to my question. There is a late 1800s large Diebold safe for sale 68"x48"x34" and 3000lbs that was used by Wells Fargo. The safe is in rough condition and would need to be restored and the asking price is $1000. Would this be something worth looking into or do you think it's too much of a headache?

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Re: Amsec safes, need advice

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJohn141</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to hijack the thread but I am enjoying all the safe talk as I am in the market. I too have been looking at the BF series and think that it is a good choice, now to my question. There is a late 1800s large Diebold safe for sale 68"x48"x34" and 3000lbs that was used by Wells Fargo. The safe is in rough condition and would need to be restored and the asking price is $1000. Would this be something worth looking into or do you think it's too much of a headache? </div></div>

The old diebolds are good safes. Diebold is one of the few companies that hasn't used asbestos in the construction. They are also extremely fire resistant, and aren't going to be broken into with simple hand tools. Way above any RSC including Amsec and Sturdy.

You would easily build and interior for gun storage use or simply line it with the hyskore rifle racks and use it as is.

I think $1000 is a bit high though, I would try to negotiate a bit. You can find the old safes like that pretty regularly for $500 and even that is negotiable. There are a lot of places who give them away to whoever will move them.

 

[BigJohn141]

Re: Amsec safes, need advice

Thanks for the advise, it looks pretty damn secure with 6" doors lol. It is unlocked so the guy either has the combo or is smart enough to not lock it back, I might hit him up and see if he will come down on the price quite a bit.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Amsec safes, need advice

Keep in mind every 30 minutes of fire protection is the result of a 1/2" sheet of drywall being added to every interior surface.

My new safe was rated at 1.5 hours. When I swung the door open and saw 3 sheets of drywall screwed to the door, I was like WTF...

As the safe was custom made I most surely would have ordered it for 60 minutes max. Too late now unless I want to completely destroy the interior/have the shelves not fit.

Before you make a final decision, you might want to contact Curt at CESAFES.com and talk about his CE line. They are custom made with plate doors, not composite doors. I have not studied the AMSEC line to know if they use all plate doors, but as you may be aware the safes hovering around th3 $1k mark on the general market these days are Chicom thin sheet metal with composite doors and door frames.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Re: Amsec safes, need advice

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Keep in mind every 30 minutes of fire protection is the result of a 1/2" sheet of drywall being added to every interior surface.

My new safe was rated at 1.5 hours. When I swung the door open and saw 3 sheets of drywall screwed to the door, I was like WTF...

As the safe was custom made I most surely would have ordered it for 60 minutes max. Too late now unless I want to completely destroy the interior/have the shelves not fit.

Before you make a final decision, you might want to contact Curt at CESAFES.com and talk about his CE line. They are custom made with plate doors, not composite doors. I have not studied the AMSEC line to know if they use all plate doors, but as you may be aware the safes hovering around th3 $1k mark on the general market these days are Chicom thin sheet metal with composite doors and door frames. </div></div>

The AMSEC BF safe I ordered has a concrete type fill in-between an inner and out layer of steel which is the same way they construct commercial safes. Drywall is a poor fire insulator and once I learned that the SF line uses drywall in the construction I decided against it.

AMSEC also uses plate doors on their entire line of safes, the BF has as 1/2" solid plate door, not multi layers like a lot of so called "plate doors" have.

My total was $2500 with freight and the only thing I could find remotely comparable was the Sturdy line. They use 7ga steel on the body vs 2 layers of 11ga on the new BF's and they offer great options like the SS on the lock and body but they were 8-12 weeks for delivery and I still question their fire insulation compared to the BF. In the end I decided the BF was for me based on fire insulation. The door will be just as secure and the slightly thicker layer of outer steel really wouldn't benefit menmuch due to the safes final location. I don't see how anybody could get to the sides, top, or back to attack them. It would have to be a door attack and which the location that won't be easy either and I don't see them prying the door on a BF.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Re: Amsec safes, need advice

There isn't a single drywall-lined safe that carries a UL fire rating. I think the reason shold be self-evident.

Don't buy the antique safe until you get a price quote (and if possible, an inspection) from a SAVTA technician on the cost of servicing and/or replacing, retrofitting, or fabricating parts, including the lock. You don't want to be stuck with something that has worn components that need replacing. A bank safe is used daily so unless it was religiously maintained, you might be looking at a lot of issues. There are no off-the-shelf parts for something like this. However a functional antique safe in good operational condition will last a lifetime with care.
These old safes were meant to protect contents from intense wood structure fires that could remain in hot ash for days. Think Great Chicago Fire. Modern fire safes today are rated for 1-2 hours because we have modern fire response times.

 

[stan462]

Re: Amsec safes, need advice

I got the BF in my garage. I would wait for it.