Can anyone defend or explain a -speed limit- in a TAC Match? I can far better understand a power rating, ftlbs of energy, or the ability to knock over a given steel target at a given range, thus requiring "tac-power", but to limit the speed seems counter productive in the sense that it limits tactical improvements, ie more power on target, better hit to rounds out ratio etc.
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Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
mainly... to protect the steel
mainly... to protect the steel
Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
REASON: saves on target pass thrus/damage.......
REASON: saves on target pass thrus/damage.......
Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
1. Match directors want to keep a level playing field in caliber selection. If you didnt have a FPS rule people would be out there hurling projos at 3400+ and when you start getting into the 6.5 barrrel burners.....
You lead up to the second point of the matter. Damage to targets. Match directors want to preserve their steel to get as many seasons out of it as they can. It's an overhead cost and they want to keep that down.
Pass thru shots might be valid as well because if you are burning thru the steel plates you might not get calls for your hits thus failing stages when you are really hitting them all.
1. Match directors want to keep a level playing field in caliber selection. If you didnt have a FPS rule people would be out there hurling projos at 3400+ and when you start getting into the 6.5 barrrel burners.....
You lead up to the second point of the matter. Damage to targets. Match directors want to preserve their steel to get as many seasons out of it as they can. It's an overhead cost and they want to keep that down.
Pass thru shots might be valid as well because if you are burning thru the steel plates you might not get calls for your hits thus failing stages when you are really hitting them all.
Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
Agree about protecting steel.
Most impressive destruction I ever saw was a 204 ruger blow through a steel plate at 100 yards.
BMT
Agree about protecting steel.
Most impressive destruction I ever saw was a 204 ruger blow through a steel plate at 100 yards.
BMT
Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
Ive shot Predator Solids out of my 338LM. It goes thru steel easily out to 450 yards.
Ive shot Predator Solids out of my 338LM. It goes thru steel easily out to 450 yards.
Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ive shot Predator Solids out of my 338LM. It goes thru steel easily out to 450 yards. </div></div>
If you own the steel or work for nutt`n to repair targets...welding up holes...
.....you would`nt do that......
bill larson
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ive shot Predator Solids out of my 338LM. It goes thru steel easily out to 450 yards.
If you own the steel or work for nutt`n to repair targets...welding up holes...
.....you would`nt do that......
bill larson
Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
I call BS on protecting the steel, run the numbers, at any distance inside 1000 a 300wm shooting a 190 at 2900 has an assload more energy on target than a 6mm 115DTAC going 3300, the speed limits are there for two reasons, even the field, and keep to keep weapons shooting longer.
I call BS on protecting the steel, run the numbers, at any distance inside 1000 a 300wm shooting a 190 at 2900 has an assload more energy on target than a 6mm 115DTAC going 3300, the speed limits are there for two reasons, even the field, and keep to keep weapons shooting longer.
Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I call BS on protecting the steel, run the numbers, at any distance inside 1000 a 300wm shooting a 190 at 2900 has an assload more energy on target than a 6mm 115DTAC going 3300, the speed limits are there for two reasons, even the field, and keep to keep weapons shooting longer.</div></div>
Everyones got an opinion just like other body parts.....if you are correct...
What`s causing the holes in steel...????.... even a pialated headed woodpecker can`t do that....
bill larson
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I call BS on protecting the steel, run the numbers, at any distance inside 1000 a 300wm shooting a 190 at 2900 has an assload more energy on target than a 6mm 115DTAC going 3300, the speed limits are there for two reasons, even the field, and keep to keep weapons shooting longer.</div></div>
Everyones got an opinion just like other body parts.....if you are correct...
What`s causing the holes in steel...????.... even a pialated headed woodpecker can`t do that....
bill larson
Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I call BS on protecting the steel, run the numbers, at any distance inside 1000 a 300wm shooting a 190 at 2900 has an assload more energy on target than a 6mm 115DTAC going 3300, the speed limits are there for two reasons, even the field, and keep to keep weapons shooting longer. </div></div>
I think it has a lot more to do with speed than energy...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I call BS on protecting the steel, run the numbers, at any distance inside 1000 a 300wm shooting a 190 at 2900 has an assload more energy on target than a 6mm 115DTAC going 3300, the speed limits are there for two reasons, even the field, and keep to keep weapons shooting longer. </div></div>
I think it has a lot more to do with speed than energy...
Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill Larson</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ive shot Predator Solids out of my 338LM. It goes thru steel easily out to 450 yards. </div></div>
If you own the steel or work for nutt`n to repair targets...welding up holes...
.....you would`nt do that......
bill larson </div></div>
I can do whatever I feel like to my own targets. I wouldn't do that to someone else's.
I have the means to repair said holes.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill Larson</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ive shot Predator Solids out of my 338LM. It goes thru steel easily out to 450 yards.
If you own the steel or work for nutt`n to repair targets...welding up holes...
.....you would`nt do that......
bill larson </div></div>
I can do whatever I feel like to my own targets. I wouldn't do that to someone else's.
I have the means to repair said holes.
Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
427, It isn't the energy on target that hurts steel targets is really is the speed. my 300 WSM w/ 208 @ 2850 has WAY more energy than a .243 pushing 105's at 3300 but shoot a piece of steel at 100m and the 208 knocks the paint off maybe knocks the stand over, but the dtac will put a crater in the face of the steel or possibly blast through.
Its not BS it's pretty common knowledge that speed kills steel targets. If you need more info on this look up big dog steel or jcvibby on here they will tell you the same.
427, It isn't the energy on target that hurts steel targets is really is the speed. my 300 WSM w/ 208 @ 2850 has WAY more energy than a .243 pushing 105's at 3300 but shoot a piece of steel at 100m and the 208 knocks the paint off maybe knocks the stand over, but the dtac will put a crater in the face of the steel or possibly blast through.
Its not BS it's pretty common knowledge that speed kills steel targets. If you need more info on this look up big dog steel or jcvibby on here they will tell you the same.
Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
It's a balance of both.
Speed is known to kill the steel, but the heavy loads in mags like the 208 Amax from a 300WM going almost 3k has a high tendency to break stands and welds.
A 243 leaves dents up close and a 300WM breaks target supports up close. I can't count how many targets that my club has had to rebuild at 300-650yd because of welds being broken in the target stands after being pounded with things like 7 WSM, 300WM, 300 WSM, 338 LM, etc.
The target faces past 300yd are almost all pristing because they don't get banged up by the little fast movers out there but the stands are in rough shape.
Up close everything will get beat to shit, it's a known factor in range upkeep.
It's a balance of both.
Speed is known to kill the steel, but the heavy loads in mags like the 208 Amax from a 300WM going almost 3k has a high tendency to break stands and welds.
A 243 leaves dents up close and a 300WM breaks target supports up close. I can't count how many targets that my club has had to rebuild at 300-650yd because of welds being broken in the target stands after being pounded with things like 7 WSM, 300WM, 300 WSM, 338 LM, etc.
The target faces past 300yd are almost all pristing because they don't get banged up by the little fast movers out there but the stands are in rough shape.
Up close everything will get beat to shit, it's a known factor in range upkeep.
Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
My old 6mm AI would go right through steel at 400 yards, but slower, heavier magnums wouldn't.
My old 6mm AI would go right through steel at 400 yards, but slower, heavier magnums wouldn't.
Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
I think it has far more to do with protecting the steel than it does about leveling the playing field. Leveling the playing field would be limiting all shooters to a certain caliber.
I think it has far more to do with protecting the steel than it does about leveling the playing field. Leveling the playing field would be limiting all shooters to a certain caliber.
Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I call BS on protecting the steel, run the numbers, at any distance inside 1000 a 300wm shooting a 190 at 2900 has an assload more energy on target than a 6mm 115DTAC going 3300, the speed limits are there for two reasons, even the field, and keep to keep weapons shooting longer. </div></div>
Call BS all you want, the damage to the steel has more to do with speed and less to do with total energy.
50 BMG will have more energy, but provided speed is in check, most AR plate will do just fine.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I call BS on protecting the steel, run the numbers, at any distance inside 1000 a 300wm shooting a 190 at 2900 has an assload more energy on target than a 6mm 115DTAC going 3300, the speed limits are there for two reasons, even the field, and keep to keep weapons shooting longer. </div></div>
Call BS all you want, the damage to the steel has more to do with speed and less to do with total energy.
50 BMG will have more energy, but provided speed is in check, most AR plate will do just fine.
Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rrflyer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Leveler playing field.
Otherwise I'd be shooting 50 grain 243 bullets at 4000+ fps for most targets. </div></div>
Your caliber choice may actually restrict you. When your barrel is shot out half way through your first match, those guys shooting a normal 260 tac load will still be shooting like they were in the beginning of the match. They'll probably be shooting the next few matches and placing while you are still waiting for barrels to come in.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rrflyer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Leveler playing field.
Otherwise I'd be shooting 50 grain 243 bullets at 4000+ fps for most targets. </div></div>
Your caliber choice may actually restrict you. When your barrel is shot out half way through your first match, those guys shooting a normal 260 tac load will still be shooting like they were in the beginning of the match. They'll probably be shooting the next few matches and placing while you are still waiting for barrels to come in.
Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
It's to protect the steel, the speed has a lot to do with it but the bullet size is the main thing. A .223 going 3K is much more damaging than a 338 going the same speed. Same speed put in a much smaller area.
It's to protect the steel, the speed has a lot to do with it but the bullet size is the main thing. A .223 going 3K is much more damaging than a 338 going the same speed. Same speed put in a much smaller area.
Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
Speed kills steel, not heft. Speed AND heft will just eat through it like it's not there. You also have to be concerned about guys pushing the safety envelope for the sake of competitive advantage. 3100fps is screamin, not sure why you'd need much more.
Speed kills steel, not heft. Speed AND heft will just eat through it like it's not there. You also have to be concerned about guys pushing the safety envelope for the sake of competitive advantage. 3100fps is screamin, not sure why you'd need much more.
Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I call BS on protecting the steel, run the numbers, at any distance inside 1000 a 300wm shooting a 190 at 2900 has an assload more energy on target than a 6mm 115DTAC going 3300, the speed limits are there for two reasons, even the field, and keep to keep weapons shooting longer. </div></div>
It really does and if you think it's BS you can test it easily. Hang some AR500@100, throw a 62smk and a 175smk at it and observe the results. The 62 will take a deeper divot; I know cuz I did it. 62s@2937, 175s@2641.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I call BS on protecting the steel, run the numbers, at any distance inside 1000 a 300wm shooting a 190 at 2900 has an assload more energy on target than a 6mm 115DTAC going 3300, the speed limits are there for two reasons, even the field, and keep to keep weapons shooting longer. </div></div>
It really does and if you think it's BS you can test it easily. Hang some AR500@100, throw a 62smk and a 175smk at it and observe the results. The 62 will take a deeper divot; I know cuz I did it. 62s@2937, 175s@2641.
Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SRSDriver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Call BS all you want, the damage to the steel has more to do with speed and less to do with total energy.</div></div>
It's largely a factor of velocity, sectional density, and projectile hardness. It is an energy problem; specifically, energy per unit of surface area. Ultimately, velocity is the easiest variable to limit and enforce.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SRSDriver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Call BS all you want, the damage to the steel has more to do with speed and less to do with total energy.</div></div>
It's largely a factor of velocity, sectional density, and projectile hardness. It is an energy problem; specifically, energy per unit of surface area. Ultimately, velocity is the easiest variable to limit and enforce.
Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
Did this a couple years back, checking 200yd zero with some hunting rifles on AR-500 plate...
Two normal splashes are from a 6x45, 55gr @ 2950. Then grabbed the .17Predator, 30gr @ 4100fps. First shot drilled a hole right thru dat shit. I pound those same plates with my 7WSM and they spin like wind chimes, but that nasty little .172 caliber pill at Mach 3.7 just ate it up...
Did this a couple years back, checking 200yd zero with some hunting rifles on AR-500 plate...
Two normal splashes are from a 6x45, 55gr @ 2950. Then grabbed the .17Predator, 30gr @ 4100fps. First shot drilled a hole right thru dat shit. I pound those same plates with my 7WSM and they spin like wind chimes, but that nasty little .172 caliber pill at Mach 3.7 just ate it up...
Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: knockemdown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did this a couple years back, checking 200yd zero with some hunting rifles on AR-500 plate...
Two normal splashes are from a 6x45, 55gr @ 2950. Then grabbed the .17Predator, 30gr @ 4100fps. First shot drilled a hole right thru dat shit. I pound those same plates with my 7WSM and they spin like wind chimes, but that nasty little .172 caliber pill at Mach 3.7 just ate it up... </div></div>
That's awesome. I wasn't sure if a 17 would do it or not. Glad you confirmed it so I don't have to
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: knockemdown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did this a couple years back, checking 200yd zero with some hunting rifles on AR-500 plate...
Two normal splashes are from a 6x45, 55gr @ 2950. Then grabbed the .17Predator, 30gr @ 4100fps. First shot drilled a hole right thru dat shit. I pound those same plates with my 7WSM and they spin like wind chimes, but that nasty little .172 caliber pill at Mach 3.7 just ate it up... </div></div>
That's awesome. I wasn't sure if a 17 would do it or not. Glad you confirmed it so I don't have to
Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
Diameter and velocity defines how the projectile imparts its energy on the hard target. Smaller calibers concentrate the energy onto a smaller area. Ever notice your penetrators are not bullet diameter, rather are sub-caliber?
Diameter and velocity defines how the projectile imparts its energy on the hard target. Smaller calibers concentrate the energy onto a smaller area. Ever notice your penetrators are not bullet diameter, rather are sub-caliber?
Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kilmore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We shoot a .408 steel bullet (2900 fps) that cooks through 1/2" plate at 1000 yards. </div></div>
I think you will also find most ranges or matches using steel targets are going to prohibit steel core projectiles and ap rounds. my hunch is they would also disallow solid steel bullets.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kilmore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We shoot a .408 steel bullet (2900 fps) that cooks through 1/2" plate at 1000 yards. </div></div>
I think you will also find most ranges or matches using steel targets are going to prohibit steel core projectiles and ap rounds. my hunch is they would also disallow solid steel bullets.
Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
I asked Ryan from Big Dog Steel why I was putting tiny dings and nicks in my 550 steel. He asked me what I was shooting at it....55 grain 5.56 inside 100 yards.
He said thats your problem...55 grain XM193 is cooking, 3200+ FPS. He told me to shoot 77 grain and it will slow down enough it wont put a scratch on it.....he was right.
Next week I shot it and it just took the paint off....nothing to the steel, despite having more energy on target due to heavier bullet.
I asked Ryan from Big Dog Steel why I was putting tiny dings and nicks in my 550 steel. He asked me what I was shooting at it....55 grain 5.56 inside 100 yards.
He said thats your problem...55 grain XM193 is cooking, 3200+ FPS. He told me to shoot 77 grain and it will slow down enough it wont put a scratch on it.....he was right.
Next week I shot it and it just took the paint off....nothing to the steel, despite having more energy on target due to heavier bullet.
Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...despite having more energy on target due to heavier bullet.</div></div>
A 55gr bullet moving at 3240fps actually carries a touch more energy than a 77gr moving at 2720fps (both velocities stated are for Federal factory ammo).
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...despite having more energy on target due to heavier bullet.</div></div>
A 55gr bullet moving at 3240fps actually carries a touch more energy than a 77gr moving at 2720fps (both velocities stated are for Federal factory ammo).
Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: knockemdown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did this a couple years back, checking 200yd zero with some hunting rifles on AR-500 plate...
Two normal splashes are from a 6x45, 55gr @ 2950. Then grabbed the .17Predator, 30gr @ 4100fps. First shot drilled a hole right thru dat shit. I pound those same plates with my 7WSM and they spin like wind chimes, but that nasty little .172 caliber pill at Mach 3.7 just ate it up... </div></div>
badass.... Straight up. makes me want a .204ruger
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: knockemdown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did this a couple years back, checking 200yd zero with some hunting rifles on AR-500 plate...
Two normal splashes are from a 6x45, 55gr @ 2950. Then grabbed the .17Predator, 30gr @ 4100fps. First shot drilled a hole right thru dat shit. I pound those same plates with my 7WSM and they spin like wind chimes, but that nasty little .172 caliber pill at Mach 3.7 just ate it up... </div></div>
badass.... Straight up. makes me want a .204ruger
Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
The speed creates the heat needed to go through steel.
The speed creates the heat needed to go through steel.
Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
FYI, I have some AR500 targets that I've put out at 50 yards and then hammered with a 338 Lapua. Yep, 50 yards with a 338 LM. It put a slight ding in the steel but not much.
the targets that we make out of 3/8" AR500 can handle ball ammo up to about 3600 fps. Any faster than that yer punching holes through it (204 Ruger, 22-250...)
We get people all the time saying they punch through 1/2 inch steel with their 308, or 300 or...the difference is the hardness of the steel they are shooting. AR500 is some crazy hard steel, way harder than what most people have access to. Most ammo moving below 3600 fps just splatters like a tomato when it hits it no matter how big the bullet is. Over 3600 and the heat melts a clean hole through like the picture posted.
like many things in life, it's not the size of the projectile that matters so much, it's the speed.
FYI, I have some AR500 targets that I've put out at 50 yards and then hammered with a 338 Lapua. Yep, 50 yards with a 338 LM. It put a slight ding in the steel but not much.
the targets that we make out of 3/8" AR500 can handle ball ammo up to about 3600 fps. Any faster than that yer punching holes through it (204 Ruger, 22-250...)
We get people all the time saying they punch through 1/2 inch steel with their 308, or 300 or...the difference is the hardness of the steel they are shooting. AR500 is some crazy hard steel, way harder than what most people have access to. Most ammo moving below 3600 fps just splatters like a tomato when it hits it no matter how big the bullet is. Over 3600 and the heat melts a clean hole through like the picture posted.
like many things in life, it's not the size of the projectile that matters so much, it's the speed.
Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
A lot of clubs have a 'no magnums' policy when it comes to shooting steel. Some of that is based on the damage that was done to silhouette targets when shot with magnum rifles. If you're not one of the regular Silhouette crowd watch them come running when you pull out something that looks like a big deer rifle! 3100 fps is probably the cut-off where they started seeing damage to the silhouette steel. Once it's a rule one place, any steel damage is going to beg the standard be applied there also.
Man up. Shoot a .308. Once you've mastered that, you'll be a force to be reckoned with. Besides, you're only shooting against yourself.
A lot of clubs have a 'no magnums' policy when it comes to shooting steel. Some of that is based on the damage that was done to silhouette targets when shot with magnum rifles. If you're not one of the regular Silhouette crowd watch them come running when you pull out something that looks like a big deer rifle! 3100 fps is probably the cut-off where they started seeing damage to the silhouette steel. Once it's a rule one place, any steel damage is going to beg the standard be applied there also.
Man up. Shoot a .308. Once you've mastered that, you'll be a force to be reckoned with. Besides, you're only shooting against yourself.
Re: 3100 fps speed limit, WHY
I have some 3/8 inch ar500 steel targets that I set up at 100 yards. I shot them with my 260AI at 2900 with no damage done. My 204 put pock marks in it at the same distance. 40gr nosler at 3700ish.
I have some 3/8 inch ar500 steel targets that I set up at 100 yards. I shot them with my 260AI at 2900 with no damage done. My 204 put pock marks in it at the same distance. 40gr nosler at 3700ish.
