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Suppressors ATF to remove CLEO signoff and change trusts?

callen3615

callen3615

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 27, 2010
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Peidmont, NC
Is there any truth to the rumors ive been hearing about the ATF planning to remove the CLEO signoff (or just make it "shall issue" like CCW), and to require the documentation of any individuals in a trust? If so, is this going to happen this year? Next year?

I would really like to get into the suppressor game pretty soon, and if I can avoid the trust system I would be less apprehensive about it.
 
Re: ATF to remove CLEO signoff and change trusts?

At the Shot Show a number of Supressor manufactures confirmed the CLEO requirement to go away, be replaced with notify, on the Trust side each and every person named in the trust will need pictures and finger printed going foward, they all said its in the comment stage and unless something bad happens it will become the new standard for C3 toys, while these new rules will not help Communist States, it help those of who live in free States whose Sherriff(Denton County Texas Douche Bag) who will not sign for no reason other than there a idiot.
 
Re: ATF to remove CLEO signoff and change trusts?

so what happens with people like me who already have an NFA trust? Will I need pictures and prints for future NFA purchases?
 
Re: ATF to remove CLEO signoff and change trusts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The-Fly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so what happens with people like me who already have an NFA trust? Will I need pictures and prints for future NFA purchases? </div></div>

You sure will!

Why would a trust already established be immune to new regulations for new purchases?
 
Re: ATF to remove CLEO signoff and change trusts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cpt. obvious</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If so, is this going to happen this year? Next year? </div></div>

Does anybody know the answer to this? I haven't heard if it has changed, or is going to change and when?
 
Re: ATF to remove CLEO signoff and change trusts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cpt. obvious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Right on. then I will hold off on starting a trust. </div></div>

that should depend on if you want to have your family or trustee(s) in the trust get your can(s) or NFA items if you died or got killed unexpectedly.
 
Re: ATF to remove CLEO signoff and change trusts?

I may have bought my last NFA item due to the Trust change issue and I'm actually quite satisfied with what I currently have. I and everyone on my trust are 100% legit. However, I do not believe I should have to disclose ANYTHING to my local sheriff who is a temporary elected official with no jurisdiction over NFA weapons.
 
Re: ATF to remove CLEO signoff and change trusts?

If all we have to do is notify it shouldn't matter if the Sherriff is a A-Hole or not.
 
Re: ATF to remove CLEO signoff and change trusts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sendero_man</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cpt. obvious</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Right on. then I will hold off on starting a trust. </div></div>

that should depend on if you want to have your family or trustee(s) in the trust get your can(s) or NFA items if you died or got killed unexpectedly. </div></div>

Your family can get your cans or other NFA items if you die and they are registered to an individual. The BATFE allows a one time, form 5 free transfer per item to any family member(s).
 
Re: ATF to remove CLEO signoff and change trusts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coast2coast</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cpt. obvious</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If so, is this going to happen this year? Next year? </div></div>

Does anybody know the answer to this? I haven't heard if it has changed, or is going to change and when? </div></div>

Standard Federal procedure is to post in the Federal Register. That starts the comment period clock (anywhere from 30-90 days, sometimes more). Once the comment period closes, the agency will examine all comments and either 1) adopt the proposed rule as written or 2) modify the proposed rule. If the modifications are extensive, the proposed changes may go through another round of publication and comment.
The timeline is very fuzzy. I've seen some rules go into effect a year after the comment period closed. It just depends on the political climate and how much resistance they anticipate.

It looks like this proposed change is still in the OMB, which is tasked with examining the financial impact of proposed rules.
 
Re: ATF to remove CLEO signoff and change trusts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If all we have to do is notify it shouldn't matter if the Sherriff is a A-Hole or not. </div></div>

You don't notify the BATF will notify. Now if you have a sheriff that is not cool with NFA items he can harass you. I don't agree with this.
 
Re: ATF to remove CLEO signoff and change trusts?

Thank you Mike for the link to the legal opinion. While I do appreciate members who like to opine on subjects such as this, many times they are simply that. Opinions with no basis. While this too is an opinion it is at least substantiated with supporting details and a basis.

While I am fortunate to live in a city, West Chester, PA, that has a gun friendly sheriff I also have a trust. I hope for the best for everyone in every city and state.
 
Re: ATF to remove CLEO signoff and change trusts?

i'm new to this process but i also believe the benefit of the trust is to allow multiple users. For example, if I purchase the can in my name I'm the only authorized user... if bought on a trust, all trustees can use it.
 
Re: ATF to remove CLEO signoff and change trusts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cnofear2000</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i'm new to this process but i also believe the benefit of the trust is to allow multiple users. For example, if I purchase the can in my name I'm the only authorized user... if bought on a trust, all trustees can use it. </div></div>

I guess if you want some one else to use your can, why on earth you would want that is beyond me. I am also hearing verb-age that will eliminate NFA clubs.
 
Re: ATF to remove CLEO signoff and change trusts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2ndamendfan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If all we have to do is notify it shouldn't matter if the Sherriff is a A-Hole or not. </div></div>

You don't notify the BATF will notify. Now if you have a sheriff that is not cool with NFA items he can harass you. I don't agree with this. </div></div>

News to me, didn't know they were able to harass law abiding citizens. Does this go along with the "they can kick your door in in the middle of the night bullshit"?
 
Re: ATF to remove CLEO signoff and change trusts?

Whew I just sent off my form 4 Trust for my suppressor today no picture no finger prints. Only what the Trust lawyer to me to send along with my $200 cheque.
 
Re: ATF to remove CLEO signoff and change trusts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 3DHUSKER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess if you want some one else to use your can, why on earth you would want that is beyond me. </div></div>

Spouses, Parents, (adult)Children, etc.....

Many of us are from families where everyone is an experienced shooter. Why would I not want to protect my family in the event that they are in control of a registered firearm.

If I wanted to loan my Father one of my AR15's there is no law prohibiting that. If I wanted to loan him an SBR with a Suppressor on it I should be able to as well. That is why many of us keep our items in a Trust or Corporation. That way "I" decide who has access to my property without having to pay more unreasonable taxes.

It also prevents little issues, like if we are on our way back from the range and my wife sits in the truck with a pile of suppressors while i run into the store for a gallon of milk. If she is on the trust, she is covered because she is legally able to be in possession of the items in the vehicle with her. Wives get a little pissed if you "accidentally" cause them to commit a felony.

 
Re: ATF to remove CLEO signoff and change trusts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It also prevents little issues, like if we are on our way back from the range and my wife sits in the truck with a pile of suppressors while i run into the store for a gallon of milk. If she is on the trust, she is covered because she is legally able to be in possession of the items in the vehicle with her. Wives get a little pissed if you "accidentally" cause them to commit a felony.</div></div>

This has NEVER happened. The ATF actually considers situations like this as still maintaining possession and control. Never has a case been prosecuted for illegal transfer etc. in a situation like you describe.

It may be what you needed to make your wife feel comfortable but no laws are broken.
 
Re: ATF to remove CLEO signoff and change trusts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StalkingRhino</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It also prevents little issues, like if we are on our way back from the range and my wife sits in the truck with a pile of suppressors while i run into the store for a gallon of milk. If she is on the trust, she is covered because she is legally able to be in possession of the items in the vehicle with her. Wives get a little pissed if you "accidentally" cause them to commit a felony.</div></div>

This has NEVER happened. The ATF actually considers situations like this as still maintaining possession and control. Never has a case been prosecuted for illegal transfer etc. in a situation like you describe.

It may be what you needed to make your wife feel comfortable but no laws are broken. </div></div>

I agree with SR your talking nonsense. whatever makes you feel better. Your attorney has done a fine sell job.
smile.gif
 
Re: ATF to remove CLEO signoff and change trusts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StalkingRhino</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This has NEVER happened. The ATF actually considers situations like this as still maintaining possession and control. Never has a case been prosecuted for illegal transfer etc. in a situation like you describe.

It may be what you needed to make your wife feel comfortable but no laws are broken. </div></div>

How often have you seen a local Law Enforcement Officer call the BATFE office from the road to get an "opinion"?

Then again, what do I know? I don't know anything about law enforcement. I get all my info from the internet.
 
Re: ATF to remove CLEO signoff and change trusts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StalkingRhino</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This has NEVER happened. The ATF actually considers situations like this as still maintaining possession and control. Never has a case been prosecuted for illegal transfer etc. in a situation like you describe.

It may be what you needed to make your wife feel comfortable but no laws are broken. </div></div>

How often have you seen a local Law Enforcement Officer call the BATFE office from the road to get an "opinion"?

Then again, what do I know? I don't know anything about law enforcement. I get all my info from the internet. </div></div>

Most cops wouldn't know what to do when they saw a trust anyways.

Either the cop is going to believe your documentation or he won't, simple as that. Even if she is on there and doesn't believe the documentation is legal he is going to arrest or in the least detain you while he gets more information. Can't let a bad guy get away.

During his fact finding he would get in touch with the ATF, since it is their rules anyways. When they hear that you stopped at the store to buy a gallon of milk they will roll their eyes and pimp slap the cop for wasting their time.

Our country still doesn't allow for terry stops....for now, so what crime was committed to get a cop digging in your car to see that your NFA was near your wife anyways?

This is nothing but fear mongering by lawyers. I will give them this much, they are getting more creative with their justifications to sell Trusts.
 
Re: ATF to remove CLEO signoff and change trusts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StalkingRhino</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StalkingRhino</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This has NEVER happened. The ATF actually considers situations like this as still maintaining possession and control. Never has a case been prosecuted for illegal transfer etc. in a situation like you describe.

It may be what you needed to make your wife feel comfortable but no laws are broken. </div></div> I

How often have you seen a local Law Enforcement Officer call the BATFE office from the road to get an "opinion"?

Then again, what do I know? I don't know anything about law enforcement. I get all my info from the internet. </div></div>

Most cops wouldn't know what to do when they saw a trust anyways.

Either the cop is going to believe your documentation or he won't, simple as that. Even if she is on there and doesn't believe the documentation is legal he is going to arrest or in the least detain you while he gets more information. Can't let a bad guy get away.

During his fact finding he would get in touch with the ATF, since it is their rules anyways. When they hear that you stopped at the store to buy a gallon of milk they will roll their eyes and pimp slap the cop for wasting their time.

Our country still doesn't allow for terry stops....for now, so what crime was committed to get a cop digging in your car to see that your NFA was near your wife anyways?

This is nothing but fear mongering by lawyers. I will give them this much, they are getting more creative with their justifications to sell Trusts. </div></div>

Agree on all points.

.
 
Re: ATF to remove CLEO signoff and change trusts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StalkingRhino</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Our country still doesn't allow for terry stops....for now, so what crime was committed to get a cop digging in your car to see that your NFA was near your wife anyways?</div></div>

Sorry you are wrong on this one. I don't really get paid to give criminal justice classes online, but you may want to consider researching the statement that you just made. There are piles of interdiction cases that have been made based on Terry v. Ohio. There are also numerous search warrant exemptions, etc. A crime does not have to have been committed by the occupants of the vehicle for a legally valid search to be made.

I have no idea why you seem to think this is "fear mongering" by lawyers. It doesn't take a lawyer to write a trust. It just takes a little bit of research and some common sense. Then again I did say RESEARCH and COMMON SENSE. For some that is better left to others.

Please feel free to register your items however you wish. But to tell people that Trusts have no purpose or that their reason for wanting a trust is silly is just ignorant on your part. I know more than a little bit about the average experience level of law enforcement officers in various areas of the country. I also know more than a little bit about search and seizure law (and techniques) at the state and federal level.

Believe what you want. I have no further desire to discuss it with you.
 
Re: ATF to remove CLEO signoff and change trusts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StalkingRhino</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The ATF actually considers situations like this as still maintaining possession and control.</div></div>Nope.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StalkingRhino</div><div class="ubbcode-body">During his fact finding he would get in touch with the ATF, since it is their rules anyways. When they hear that you stopped at the store to buy a gallon of milk they will roll their eyes and pimp slap the cop for wasting their time.</div></div>That's not how a stop works.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StalkingRhino</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Our country still doesn't allow for terry stops....</div></div>Wrong again. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StalkingRhino</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is nothing but fear mongering by lawyers.</div></div>Lawyers don't need the business: There is a ready supply of potential clients who get in trouble because it's easier to make-up their own rules than it is to ask, and to listen to people who know.
 
Re: ATF to remove CLEO signoff and change trusts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StalkingRhino</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Our country still doesn't allow for terry stops....for now, so what crime was committed to get a cop digging in your car to see that your NFA was near your wife anyways?</div></div>

Sorry you are wrong on this one. I don't really get paid to give criminal justice classes online, but you may want to consider researching the statement that you just made. There are piles of interdiction cases that have been made based on Terry v. Ohio. There are also numerous search warrant exemptions, etc. A crime does not have to have been committed by the occupants of the vehicle for a legally valid search to be made.

I have no idea why you seem to think this is "fear mongering" by lawyers. It doesn't take a lawyer to write a trust. It just takes a little bit of research and some common sense. Then again I did say RESEARCH and COMMON SENSE. For some that is better left to others.

Please feel free to register your items however you wish. But to tell people that Trusts have no purpose or that their reason for wanting a trust is silly is just ignorant on your part. I know more than a little bit about the average experience level of law enforcement officers in various areas of the country. I also know more than a little bit about search and seizure law (and techniques) at the state and federal level.

Believe what you want. I have no further desire to discuss it with you. </div></div>

So you are saying that a cop can simply pull up to your car at the gas station and just start searching it?

I am aware of the Terry case(its where the Terry stop comes from) and the basis of it is the officer having a reasonable suspicion that a crime has, is, or will happen. In your hypothetical, what is the officers reasonable suspicion and why did it bring him to search a random car at a gas station?

Are there means that I am not aware of that make it so the cop DOESN'T need even a reasonable suspicion to search your vehicle?

If you read my other posts you would see that I KNOW you don't need a lawyer to make trusts. I have never said they serve no purpose either. The scenario you stated sounds nothing more than creative fear mongering that a lawyer would use to sell a trust......"to protect your wife while you are getting a gallon of milk at the store". Its utter ridiculous, you would have to have a multitude of other charges so that it would stick as icing. Even the ATF Legal counsel says that no charges could be pressed so there is no transfer of ownership.

I am actually relieved to know that this wasn't a fear mongering lawyer sales pitch.

My experience with police officers over the last 10 years shows that very few know what NFA is, of those when presented with a Trust, FFL/SOT, Corp documents they have NO IDEA what they are looking at. They look at it for a minute like they know what they are reading and ask for an explanation. With an FFL/SOT in hand and a suppressor I was detained because "silencers are illegal and to have one means you are poaching or an assassin". Needless to say that officer was disciplined and actually now owns a suppressor.

I am man enough to change my thoughts but based on experience they are on par.

Noone had issues for decades ad decades before the Trust option was ever popular for NFA. Still haven't had any issues for individuals owning NFA either.

Can you please show me a single case of a Terry stop that put someone in hot water with NFA in a situation like you describe?
 
Re: ATF to remove CLEO signoff and change trusts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Can you please show me a single case of a Terry stop that put someone in hot water with NFA in a situation like you describe?</div></div>

There was a case in south Florida a year or two back where a guy coming home from a carbine class was pulled over by an FHP trooper for some spurious traffic offense. The trooper started asking questions, and suddenly the guy is in cuffs because he "had a silencer". IIRC it took the better part of an hour or two for a sergeant to arrive, figure out what was actually going on, and browbeat the trooper for being a dumbass.

Nobody went to jail, but the point remains that if not for the intervention of a single educated sergeant, the silencer owner in question might have spent the night in the county jail and wound up with an arrest on his record.
 
Re: ATF to remove CLEO signoff and change trusts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Longbow06</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did a little more digging. Nothing is going to happen any time soon.

ATF CLEO rule status

</div></div>

Interesting view/analysis. Thanks for the link.

Has anyone found a reputable source for where this process is at in the timeline?
 
Re: ATF to remove CLEO signoff and change trusts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Arbiter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Can you please show me a single case of a Terry stop that put someone in hot water with NFA in a situation like you describe?</div></div>

There was a case in south Florida a year or two back where a guy coming home from a carbine class was pulled over by an FHP trooper for some spurious traffic offense. The trooper started asking questions, and suddenly the guy is in cuffs because he "had a silencer". IIRC it took the better part of an hour or two for a sergeant to arrive, figure out what was actually going on, and browbeat the trooper for being a dumbass.

Nobody went to jail, but the point remains that if not for the intervention of a single educated sergeant, the silencer owner in question might have spent the night in the county jail and wound up with an arrest on his record. </div></div>

That is not a terry stop and has NOTHING to do with this discussion. The cop had a reason to stop the vehicle(some spurious traffic offense) and it elevated from there.

We are not discussing the abundance of ignorant cops or traffic enforcement related situations involving NFA ownership.
 
Re: ATF to remove CLEO signoff and change trusts?

Good information here guys, thanks. I just sent in my first Form 4 on a Trust. Now the wait begins.
 
Re: ATF to remove CLEO signoff and change trusts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StalkingRhino</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Arbiter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Can you please show me a single case of a Terry stop that put someone in hot water with NFA in a situation like you describe?</div></div>

There was a case in south Florida a year or two back where a guy coming home from a carbine class was pulled over by an FHP trooper for some spurious traffic offense. The trooper started asking questions, and suddenly the guy is in cuffs because he "had a silencer". IIRC it took the better part of an hour or two for a sergeant to arrive, figure out what was actually going on, and browbeat the trooper for being a dumbass.

Nobody went to jail, but the point remains that if not for the intervention of a single educated sergeant, the silencer owner in question might have spent the night in the county jail and wound up with an arrest on his record. </div></div>

That is not a terry stop and has NOTHING to do with this discussion. The cop had a reason to stop the vehicle(some spurious traffic offense) and it elevated from there.

We are not discussing the abundance of ignorant cops or traffic enforcement related situations involving NFA ownership. </div></div>

StalkingRhino:

No offense but you really do not have a good handle on the law whatsoever. From Terry stops to your own "this is what will happen" predictions, to your opinion on what people need to do NFA wise ie individual, Trust or corporation , your legal advice is just ignorant of the actual law and frankly its crap and people reading your opinions should know they are just that OPINIONS. Stop posting shit legal advice or at least say its only your ignorant opinion. By ignorant I mean you havent been educated in reality on the subject you are speaking on, not that your an idiot or anything like that, you just dont know what you dont know !

And yes in full disclosure I am an Attorney, and a Prosecutor (15 years) and I do valid Trusts at a very reasonable price,....But that doesnt change the fact you appear to have no clue what the hell you are talking about.

Why would you advise people not to seek legal advice because you yourself dont have the money to seek it out? You appear to have chosen to go with what the internet told ya? Let people decide for themselves what they "NEED" and dont need. I mean really your advising people about a very serious matter as if its advice about which color to Krylon your stick? WTF man!
 
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