1945 yds and 1524 yds with 338lm Savage 110ba

[timelinex]

When I just started loading for my 110BA I was having so much trouble with bad results and pressure, some of you guys have probably seen my previous threads. Well by the recommendation of my buddy, I ditched the HSM brass and the H1000, and picked up some new lapua brass with retumbo.

GREAT choice. I worked up a load doing a combination of OCW and reading chrono results at 100 yards. I fine tuned the seating until I found the sweat spot, and let me tell you I'm impressed.

I finished the load 2 weeks ago with great groups (.5moa) and INSANELY impressive chrono numbers. My 308 loads usually produce SD's of around 4 to 9, which I consider great. With this 338 load, the two separate 5 shot groups I shot over the chrono of the final product produced an ES of 1 and 3 respectively. Now I know thats outside of the 'accuracy' of the chrono, so I didn't say anything about the results until I saw it prove itself.

Fast forward to today. Went out with my fiance and buddy to his LR spot. Set up steel at 1524 yds and 1945 yds (1.1 miles).

The black dots are approximate locations of the targets.

I used my velocity and Litz's banded G7 for the bergers to estimate dope, as this was the first time I was taking this load past 100 yds. Wind was fluctuating between 3mph to 8 mph. Not a big deal when your shooting <1000yds, but trying to nail those wind calls at that distance, really showed in the horizontal spread.

ANYWAYS,I put in 13.2 mils for my elevation and let one fly. HIT at 3 oclock for the cold bore shot. Long story short, the next 4 were all hits. So 5 hits in a row, with the only variation being basically horizontal. There was less than 4" of vertical at >1500 yds. Thats when I knew all the hard work and hassle pay'd off.

Wind kicked our ass today, but I was still happy with the groupings at that distance. The other shots on the plate and stand were of my fiances and a couple hits of my buddies.

After the first 5 shots being all hits, I decided to move on to 1.1 miles. Ballistic FTE told me to put in 19.9 mils. Way too high. Took 5 shots to get on target for me.

The combination of the wind picking up and dying, and the ground being flat there, made it very hard to gauge exactly where the bullet was hitting. At that distance, the bullet might have hit way behind the target, but in reality since its flat ground, that could of meant you were just right over. I learned that its much easier to start off short of the target, and from there gauge how much more elevation you need. So after those I then nailed 2 in a row, missed one off the right edge and then 3 in a row.

Obviously the group is slightly bigger because one went off the right edge, but I was happy with 5 out of 6 shots being less than 1.5 moa at that type of distance.



My friend was shooting his custom 338 surgeon and he did great as well today. But we were once again extremely impressed with how well a savage can do with the right load. I know many people post on the forums about their troubles getting an accurate load out of their 110BA's. Well I recommend switching up components until you find something that works. Before I did, I would have all sorts of pressure problems and couldn't get the rifle to shoot anything less than 1moa. Now my final load is:

300 gr bergers
92.8gr retumbo for a velocity of ~2805
Seated .013 into the lands


Last little note.. My fiance ended up shooting only 2 rounds from the 338, after I was done. Her only shots were one at the 1500yd tyarget and one at the 1900 yd target. She used my previous dope and both first round hits. I had that rubbed in a couple times on the long drive home.....

 

[littlerascal56]

Re: 1945 yds and 1524 yds with 338lm Savage 110ba

I shot my 110BA today with 250 Berger OTM's over 92.0 Retumbo. Was not very happy with the groups, as I keep getting 1 flyer out of 5 shots. Could be because I loaded them "Mag length" and they are having to make a big jump. My measurements show COAL to the lands w/Berger 250's as 3.830, but I am loading to mag length of 3.760", which is a jump of .070".

Picked up a pound of H1000 today, since I heard it is much cleaner than the Retumbo.

I will load up some to touch the lands next, and single feed from the port...hopefully this will alleviate the "flyer" issue. Just ordered 300 Hornady 285 BTHP Match to work with...in case the 250 Bergers don't work out. The 300 grain stuff is on Backorder everywhere!

 

[woodland-ghost]

Re: 1945 yds and 1524 yds with 338lm Savage 110ba

Gives me hopes about my 110, going to be loading my first round of .338's this week.

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: 1945 yds and 1524 yds with 338lm Savage 110ba

Congrats, that's some good shootin!

 

[timelinex]

Re: 1945 yds and 1524 yds with 338lm Savage 110ba

Lets be honest here, 338lm packs quite a punch compared to a 308 or 223. What I am getting at is if you have 1 flier out of 5 shots, don't necessary discount the human factor. At this point I have fired 300+ rounds through the 110ba, and only on my last rounds of finalizing my load have I started to feel that I have become comfortable with actually CONTROLLING the recoil.

As for your trouble grouping.... I have always been a big believer in seating into the lands. From the first time I tried it after reading Tresmon's posts here, its worked great. I'm not saying its not possible to load great ammunition seating mag length, I'm just saying that from my experience I have never had a better shooter than one thats seated mag length. I have only loaded for 223/308/338 so far though, so I still have much to experience. But as an example, after settling on my retumbo charge, the chrono results for seating depth changes were like this:

.015 into the lands = < 1 SD
Kissing the lands = 4 SD
Mag length = 10 SD

The velocity makes a huge difference at distance. The SD of 10 would mean just from velocity differences my round would not be any more accurate than 2 full feet. Thats not even including the natural linear dispersion.

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: 1945 yds and 1524 yds with 338lm Savage 110ba

I had a .338 snipetac, 300gr Berger's at 3220.

I launched over 300 rds at full size IPSC sill at 2073 yards, I think my hit pct was 1.5%, it was bad.
Bring it in to 1 mile and under, 1st round hits were common, multiple afterward, I had a quick fire 6" group at 1650.

Go past 1 mile, shittttttt.
Like I said before, good shootin.

 

[CoryT]

Re: 1945 yds and 1524 yds with 338lm Savage 110ba

Nice shooting. As to the SD or ES values though, do realize that's simply NOT valid. Your chronograph is only good to about 1% of the actual velocity on any given shot. So, that's 28fps. If the unit performs 50% better than that, that's still 14fps. There is no such thing as single digit SD or ES values that are valid. Certainly 5 shots over a chrono are statistically meaningless in any event, even assuming the numbers were accurate to 1 fps. (Side note: I'm always amused by the PVM-21 readout down to tenths of a fps). Next time, shoot over the chrono when you are shooting the targets. Report back when you've got 100+ shots over the chrono.

Also note that a real SD of 10 is quite good. 99.7% of shots will be +/- 30fps, 95% +/- 20fps and 68% +/- 10 fps. So, more than 50% of the time you can expect shots to be within a very usable average velocity.

This is what an OCW load is all about, getting minor velocity differances to impact at the same point via optimum barrel time. Clearly, you've found that load, but it's the impacts that tell the story, not the chronograph. In point of fact, you don't NEED the chrono, it just gives you a quicker look at the approximate velocity, rather than computing it from measured drop.

 

[timelinex]

Re: 1945 yds and 1524 yds with 338lm Savage 110ba

Cory,

I know you have been a very big figure on chrono's being minimally accurate. I dont disagree that they can be misleading. Combine that with the fact that you need xxx amount of shots to get an 'accurate' sample, and your right I agree I wouldn't count my life on the chronograph.

However, I would like to pick at the subject a little more. Something in my brain is throwing up a big red flag on the explanations of how inaccurate chrono's are.

The 1% figure is nothing more than a naked number with no explanation behind it. Can you show me the context where this has been said. From my understanding, all it means is that the equipment is 1% accurate in its velocity readings compared to REAL velocities. I do not think it mean that there is always a 1% unpredictable error. Big difference.. Learned alot about this in stats classes.

Its like the accuracy vs precision theory. So as an example..... Vehicle speedometers rarely come out of the factory displaying ACTUAL velocity. However, they are usually within 5%. Just like the chronographs are rated at within 1%. However, I can guarantee you that even though my speedo is inaccurate by 5%; every time my speedo shows that I'm going 72, im going the same actual speed as last time it showed 72. I'm sure you caught on to what I was saying before I gave the example, but I think it would clear things up for other people reading this.

You might ask, why do I believe that they mean the velocities are accurate within 1% as a whole. Well its from my, admittedly, limited real world experience. When one of my loads consistently shows SD's of <5 on both my CED M2 and Johns new oehler, but other loads consistently show 10+ SD's on multiple chrono's... It doesn't take much to connect the dots. The prime example is in fact that my CED M2 shows velocities figures that are about .5% faster than Johns Oehler! The magic here however is that it reads consistently ~.5% faster.

My strength is mathematics/physics and most things that have to do with numbers ... Many times I see high school level stats thrown around in an extremely misleading way. Your absolutely right that 5 shots is not enough to derive an 'accurate' sample. However, if you want to talk stats... There is a MUCH larger chance that those 5 shots actually do represent the sample quite well, rather than them being all outliers. Thats why OCW's and ladders work. Amazing how you take so few shots, but MOST of the time there are clear trends. This is a great example of the power that small samples actually DO have.

From everything I've heard, your a great shooter and instructor. I'm hoping one day I'll be able to take you ELR class. I have no doubts that you have the experience to back up your opinions. Let me know what you think of my interpretation and what I'm missing in all this. I'm not afraid to say that I have been proven wrong many times before.

 

[timelinex]

Re: 1945 yds and 1524 yds with 338lm Savage 110ba

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: milo-2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had a .338 snipetac, 300gr Berger's at 3220.

I launched over 300 rds at full size IPSC sill at 2073 yards, I think my hit pct was 1.5%, it was bad.
Bring it in to 1 mile and under, 1st round hits were common, multiple afterward, I had a quick fire 6" group at 1650.

Go past 1 mile, shittttttt.
Like I said before, good shootin. </div></div>

To be fair, full size IPSC's are way smaller than a 36" disk. you were shooting at something that was under a minute in size width wise.

Anyways, I think next time we are setting the target out to somewhere around 2300. Maybe I'll try catching a video at that distance...

 

[CoryT]

Re: 1945 yds and 1524 yds with 338lm Savage 110ba

The 1% figure is the stated accuracy level of the Oehler, CED and PVM units. Between actual screen spacing, wobble from muzzle blast, angle of the shot between the screens and light conditions, it's difficult for consumer level products to achieve extreme precision. That's not to say they are always wrong, just that we are measuring with a ruler, not a micrometer.

It's true that 5 shots are more likely to represent a sample near the actual mean than being in the 2% of outliers. But it's also true that a sample of 5 out of 100 has a very small chance of containing even 1 of the outliers.

If your sample of 5 shots had an ES of 28fps, and we presume the chrono to be perfect, you could still actually have an SD in single digits. Many people would be trying a different load though.

I find the chrono more useful as a indicator of average velocity, +/- a percent or so. Then, shoot over it as you shoot some groups at long range and track the individual shots as well as the average against the impact points. For example, I've shot sub minute groups at 1500m where the ES over 5 shots was 25fps according to the chrono. The computer will of course tell you that that's not correct. Is it more likely that the chrono is wrong or that the aiming error was off in the right direction and amount multiple times? Try that exercise yourself a few times and you'll see why my faith in chrono numbers is not unconditional.

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: 1945 yds and 1524 yds with 338lm Savage 110ba

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: timelinex</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: milo-2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had a .338 snipetac, 300gr Berger's at 3220.

I launched over 300 rds at full size IPSC sill at 2073 yards, I think my hit pct was 1.5%, it was bad.
Bring it in to 1 mile and under, 1st round hits were common, multiple afterward, I had a quick fire 6" group at 1650.

Go past 1 mile, shittttttt.
Like I said before, good shootin. </div></div>

To be fair, full size IPSC's are way smaller than a 36" disk. you were shooting at something that was under a minute in size width wise.

Anyways, I think next time we are setting the target out to somewhere around 2300. Maybe I'll try catching a video at that distance... </div></div>

TL,
Thanks for the vote of confidence.
A guy needs to remember, deep down inside, that IPSC target is what us wannabies are really shooting at.
I would only fire 6 shot strings, the gun would be hot. I would take a box of 50 rds with me, take my 1st shot out there, 2" left, 6" right, 1" left, 8' right, all morning long. And then comes the mirage, and switching winds.

I honestly had more fun when I was younger, and would get rejected by pretty women, at least I could throw a coy insult back at them. The only way to insult a target is too smack the piss out of it, and I couldn't do it.
And it wasn't my gun or load, and I don't like telling people about the groups it posted.
Heck, like you I would let people shoot it at distance, the looks on their faces were priceless when they'd drill a bullseye at 1600 yards.

But over 1 mile, it was like me at a Vegas crap table, just throw your cash away.

Glad the Lapua works for you. What type of winds you guys shoot in? And hope to see your video.

 

[timelinex]

Re: 1945 yds and 1524 yds with 338lm Savage 110ba

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 1% figure is the stated accuracy level of the Oehler, CED and PVM units. Between actual screen spacing, wobble from muzzle blast, angle of the shot between the screens and light conditions, it's difficult for consumer level products to achieve extreme precision. That's not to say they are always wrong, just that we are measuring with a ruler, not a micrometer.

It's true that 5 shots are more likely to represent a sample near the actual mean than being in the 2% of outliers. But it's also true that a sample of 5 out of 100 has a very small chance of containing even 1 of the outliers.

If your sample of 5 shots had an ES of 28fps, and we presume the chrono to be perfect, you could still actually have an SD in single digits. Many people would be trying a different load though.

I find the chrono more useful as a indicator of average velocity, +/- a percent or so. Then, shoot over it as you shoot some groups at long range and track the individual shots as well as the average against the impact points. For example, I've shot sub minute groups at 1500m where the ES over 5 shots was 25fps according to the chrono. The computer will of course tell you that that's not correct. Is it more likely that the chrono is wrong or that the aiming error was off in the right direction and amount multiple times? Try that exercise yourself a few times and you'll see why my faith in chrono numbers is not unconditional. </div></div>

Hmm, so If I understand correctly, you are not so much discarding the repeatability or accuracy of the chrono's but rather what the numbers can actually mean in real life.

Thats something I definitely <span style="text-decoration: underline">can</span> agree with you on. We can all put numbers into a ballistic calculator and have them tell us that a shot would be x high or x low because of FPS differences. However, there are other variables that decide POI as well.. Who knows, maybe the lower velocity bullets also leave the barrel at a time that throws them at a bit higher/lower of an angle. Which would explain your experience of the chrono vs reality disparity.

Using a chrono in combination with 100 yard OCW testing has seemed to work out good for me on my 308 and 338 so far. However, you have given me something to think about.


Whats your recommended mode of finding a load for long range then? Are you saying to just use OCW and disregard the chrono? I know I could pick a prime load from all the nodes and then see which works best at LR, but it seems like using the chrono shortcuts the need for that.

 

[timelinex]

Re: 1945 yds and 1524 yds with 338lm Savage 110ba

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: milo-2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
TL,
Thanks for the vote of confidence.
A guy needs to remember, deep down inside, that IPSC target is what us wannabies are really shooting at.
I would only fire 6 shot strings, the gun would be hot. I would take a box of 50 rds with me, take my 1st shot out there, 2" left, 6" right, 1" left, 8' right, all morning long. And then comes the mirage, and switching winds.

I honestly had more fun when I was younger, and would get rejected by pretty women, at least I could throw a coy insult back at them. The only way to insult a target is too smack the piss out of it, and I couldn't do it.
And it wasn't my gun or load, and I don't like telling people about the groups it posted.
Heck, like you I would let people shoot it at distance, the looks on their faces were priceless when they'd drill a bullseye at 1600 yards.

But over 1 mile, it was like me at a Vegas crap table, just throw your cash away.

Glad the Lapua works for you. What type of winds you guys shoot in? And hope to see your video. </div></div>

I completely agree that the goal is eventually the man size target. However, I think it is more beneficial to me to start at a bigger target and work towards center punching it, rather than missing the entire time and getting discouraged.
Like I said, you can always work on center punching the target, but something about seeing the steel ring, keeps you motivated to keep practicing. Like at that 1500yd target, I would have had only 2 or 3 hits if the target was man sized. I'n my opinion, I would have missed valuable information that this target showed me. Next time I go out there, I'm excited to try and focus on the wind more.

The wind that day was between 3 and 8 mph. It was gusting though, which in my opinion is way worse than a strong but consistent wind. It also seemed like there was a wind going the other way between the 1500 and 1900. Took on AVG .6 mils for 1500 and .7 mils for the 1900. Which is actually really little considering the wind we were feeling and seeing down range.... But I've noticed ballistic calculators have always over estimated the windsor required.

 

[CoryT]

Re: 1945 yds and 1524 yds with 338lm Savage 110ba

I pretty much just use the book for starting loads and powders, then make up the loads for OCW testing. Find the node, tweak that for best precision. Now, I can run the chrono while getting the final zero and come-ups. With a calibrated scope and a 300 yard drop test, I can plug in the mean velocity from 10 or so shots and then run 1000 and 1500 yard paper tests to get POA to POI variance. All these shots are run over the chrono, so that adds 20 more shots into the data, plus I can see if there are any oddities in velocity that track back to an impact point.

Now, with 30 or so shots and impact points, I can pretty well tune the system. Tweak velocity first, +/- about 40fps, then BC a percentage point or two and the program should be tracking.

I load looking for minimum vertical spread at the load nearest max pressure. Tweak that for precision grouping and whatever the velocity turns out to be, OK. Tests at long range will tell me if it work or not. While I'd like the reported SD to be in single digits, the real proof is downrange.

 

[Raven796]

Re: 1945 yds and 1524 yds with 338lm Savage 110ba

Tag...just picked up a 110BA and can't wait to start working myself out to those distances

 

[natesguns]

Re: 1945 yds and 1524 yds with 338lm Savage 110ba

I'm jealous. Just purchased a Badger Ordanace chambered in .338lm. I have land available to shoot about 1500 yards. But nothing like this. Must be rough to have that kind of distance available to you.

 

[varmint slayer]

Re: 1945 yds and 1524 yds with 338lm Savage 110ba

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nate's Guns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm jealous. Just purchased a Badger Ordanace chambered in .338lm. I have land available to shoot about 1500 yards. But nothing like this. Must be rough to have that kind of distance available to you.

</div></div>

It's rougher than a guy thinks

Property taxes and upkeep costs alone not to mention the amount of ammo a guy will go through on his own personal range adds up quick!

 

[billetman]

Re: 1945 yds and 1524 yds with 338lm Savage 110ba

Have a Savage 110 BA in 300 Win mag and this is my first bolt action and first rifle I have re loaded for but on my 3rd trip out I am under .500 MOA, I am so impressed with this 110. Finding different powders and bullet weights to try is an issue now though I am sure I can improve.