Bad bullet, or something else?

[Coloradocop]

Had a strange and somewhat unexplainable HUGE miss today with a load that I've been shooting well for some time now. It wasn't a result of a bad shot on my part (if I shanked it like this, I'd DEFINITELY know it), and I'm just trying to figure out what might have caused it. I'll provide some additional details here to help eliminate some variables:

I was mostly shooting 6-12 inch steel plates between 500 and 600 yards during this outing. We'd been shooting back and forth between these distances for a while today, with multiple hits on the plates at both distances prior to my problem (even put 4 consecutive shots inside of 1.5 inches on the 500 yard plate, which I was quite happy with). Then, as I took a shot at the 600 yard plate I watched the bullet impact 5 mils left of the target. My spotter and I both let out a "WTF was that?" almost simultaneously. That's approximately 9 feet of miss, if my in-the-head math is correct, which is far more than the inches by which we sometimes miss on even smaller targets at this distance.

I'm shooting with a new Schmidt and Bender 3-20x scope that I've had out on three or four range trips so far (H2CMR reticle). Internal scope adjustments were made for elevation only, with holds for wind varying between 0.2 mils and 0.8 mils today. My first inclination was to suspect that the scope/mount were loose; they appear to be tight.

We shoot these distances regularly, and our misses are almost always very near-misses. The load I'm shooting is one that I've used for about 3 years, except for the brass (which I recently changed to Federal from Remington, due to availability).

I'm running the following load, which has shot well for me in the past:

175 grain SMK
44.4 grains Varget
Neck-sized Federal brass (the only variable that has changed)
Winchester LR primers
2.810" COAL

I also know my trigger release on this shot was solid, and I watched the bullet impact through my scope. It wasn't a flung shot on my part.

So, how do I explain a 5 mil miss? Can this have been a bad bullet? Anyone else ever run across an issue like this that couldn't be explained through one of the usual culprits (ex: loose scope, bad shooting, etc).

 

[COLOSHOOTR]

Re: Bad bullet, or something else?

I was his spotter for this range trip and I will add a little bit more about the wind to rule it out.... The wind in question was a left to right full value cross 6-10mph variable. The miss was about 5 mils left so it could not have been a gust. I also have to vouch that it definitely was not shooter error as his follow through was good and he was able to spot the miss. Reticle cant also shouldn't be the issue as the bubble level on the mount showed level when I asked about it right before.... I'm also curious what some of you guys think may have caused a miss that seems impossible to explain.

 

[eagernoskill]

Re: Bad bullet, or something else?

My initial response is bullet with one of 3 likely causes.
1. Air bubble in lead plug inside - if it is out to the edge of the bullet it would cause a severe distortion to the stability of the flight and easily wobble and lose more stability and become erratic
2. Some damage ( scratch or deformation) to the boat tail. Since the boatail has a massive impact on the accuracy since any distortion at the muzzle has the maximum angular impact.
3. Jacket damage may also be a cause though if the jacket was badly damaged it would fail and is more likely to explode the bullet.

You are shooting at 600 yards is far enough to allow display the error.

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: Bad bullet, or something else?

Did you shoot after that? My initial response would be total scope failure, or you just witnessed your throat go out.

In response to Eager, a couple years ago I got ahold of two 3000 count boxes of Sierra 55gr Blitzkings in .224 cal for my ar's. There were approximately 20-25 that had the polymar tips bent down, like the nose on the Concord jet. I culled them and loaded them up, figuring this was going to be fun watching these things fly all over the place.
They all impacted a 10" plate at 400 yards, no change in impact from a regular round. Quite different than what I had in my head was going to happen.

 

[Coloradocop]

Re: Bad bullet, or something else?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: milo-2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did you shoot after that? My initial response would be total scope failure, or you just witnessed your throat go out.

In response to Eager, a couple years ago I got ahold of two 3000 count boxes of Sierra 55gr Blitzkings in .224 cal for my ar's. There were approximately 20-25 that had the polymar tips bent down, like the nose on the Concord jet. I culled them and loaded them up, figuring this was going to be fun watching these things fly all over the place.
They all impacted a 10" plate at 400 yards, no change in impact from a regular round. Quite different than what I had in my head was going to happen. </div></div>

While I'm not ruling out the problems you're mentioning, the .308 Win rifle I was shooting has only about 500 rounds through the barrel, so the throat shouldn't be anywhere near shot out. The scope is a new Schmidt and Bender optic, in a Spuhr mount. So, while problems like that certainly can happen, it wouldn't seem like I should be seeing either of those issues at the moment... I would hope, anyway.

The round that took off on me was my third from final round for the day. My next shot was close to target, missing the plate by around 0.1 mils due to a bad wind hold on my part. The final shot was on target after I adjusted my hold for the change in the wind.

So, currently I just have one miss that was a completely wild miss. The other shots either hit the target, or missed by the normal margins that one would expect when shooting at ranges where wind can start to play games with the path of a bullet.

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Re: Bad bullet, or something else?

Any way to tell if the bullet impacted before or after the target? I know it's hard to figure, but if your projectile had an air bubble or if the bullet flew poorly, very likely that the ballistic coefficient and therefore time of flight degraded too. If so, the projectile would have fallen more in the distance it took to get to target. Thus, impacting lower as it approached target distance.

Now, for the rest of the story: Since you weren't shooting in Florida or Mississippi, it was not a Skunk Ape that got a hold of your bullet. Since not shooting in Nepal, couldn't have been a Yeti. Your profile says Colorado, so I'd say your bullet was either affected by Big Foot, or maybe Sasquatch on vacation. Either that, or variation in the acceleration of gravity...

 

[gvanhyning]

Re: Bad bullet, or something else?

Maybe it hit the steel on the very edge. Not enough to move the steel but enough to throw the bullet way off course.

 

[roggom]

Re: Bad bullet, or something else?

Im gonna guess a funky powder charge, or one of your bullets got pushed in further. What is the neck tension set on your ammo?

 

[Augustus]

Re: Bad bullet, or something else?

Listen to gvanhyning, I have seen this happen several times. Go look at your plate and carefully examine the edge. There may only be a slight indication a strike occurred. If the bullet only slightly touches the edge of the plate there may be no movement or report but it will do crazy things to the bullet path.

 

[Blanman]

Re: Bad bullet, or something else?

^ I've had this happen once or twice. Definitely check out the steel for a tiny nick in the edge

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: Bad bullet, or something else?

CC,
I think 3 out of the last 4 posts here are on to something, I've seen it before also. That's good, problem solving or good advice is rare these days.
That's why I asked if you fired again. Loosing the throat is somewhat subtle, scope failure, once you've witnessd it is easy to spot. Glad the S&B is ok!

 

[Coloradocop]

Re: Bad bullet, or something else?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gvanhyning</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe it hit the steel on the very edge. Not enough to move the steel but enough to throw the bullet way off course. </div></div>

Interesting... I never thought of the possibility of an edge strike on the steel. The plate we were shooting is Coloshootr's, so I'll check with him to see if there were any apparent edge strikes on the plate. Still, do you think an edge strike could have thrown the shot that far off course (almost perpendicular to the original flight path of the bullet)?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1SMALLJOHNSON</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any way to tell if the bullet impacted before or after the target? I know it's hard to figure, but if your projectile had an air bubble or if the bullet flew poorly, very likely that the ballistic coefficient and therefore time of flight degraded too. If so, the projectile would have fallen more in the distance it took to get to target. Thus, impacting lower as it approached target distance.
</div></div>

Can't say for sure on that one. If the bullet did strike ground before hitting 5 mils left of target, neither of us noticed it.

 

[COLOSHOOTR]

Re: Bad bullet, or something else?

Thanks to the combined knowledge on here once again the mystery has been solved! There is a very slight impact on the top left edge of the plate that must have been so slight we could not even tell it hit the steel and only were able to see the splash of the ricochet. Thanks fellas!!!

 

[Augustus]

Re: Bad bullet, or something else?

There was once two bulls standing in a pasture with a fence separating them from a bunch of heifers. The young bull said, " Let's back up and take a run at this fence and either jump over it or crash through it and breed one of them heifers. The old bull thought about it for a minute and replied,Why don't we walk down the fence to that open gate, walk through it and breed ALL of those heifers.

Experience is not mandatory in this game but it sure helps sometimes.

 

[eagernoskill]

Re: Bad bullet, or something else?

Valid catch guys
Sometimes it's obvious if you start with fundamentals ;-)
Been shooting paper soo much fogot about steel and deflections

 

[eagernoskill]

Re: Bad bullet, or something else?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: milo-2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did you shoot after that? My initial response would be total scope failure, or you just witnessed your throat go out.

In response to Eager, a couple years ago I got ahold of two 3000 count boxes of Sierra 55gr Blitzkings in .224 cal for my ar's. There were approximately 20-25 that had the polymar tips bent down, like the nose on the Concord jet. I culled them and loaded them up, figuring this was going to be fun watching these things fly all over the place.
They all impacted a 10" plate at 400 yards, no change in impact from a regular round. Quite different than what I had in my head was going to happen. </div></div>

Valid point nose damage is more forgiving in my experience
Take a bullet and score line on boat tail
Shoot at 600 and report back
About time I valiidated this gem ;-)

 

[Coloradocop]

Re: Bad bullet, or something else?

Well, I guess this issue might have had a somewhat unexpected explanation for me. I haven't personally seen the plate we shot yesterday since posting this thread, but I talked to Coloshootr on the phone earlier today, and he's pretty certain that a bullet grazed the edge of that target.

It still surprises me that a bullet could deflect that wildly in a direction that was more perpendicular to the flight path than parallel, but I have to admit that this explanation is gaining some serious ground in my mind.

I figure we're down to: 1) damaged bullet or, 2) bullet deflection. Since I load single-stage, I think I'd have noticed a damaged bullet in the reloading process.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Re: Bad bullet, or something else?

I've had em hit sideways at 1k. Not saying that's your predicament as your well within super sonic range. Sometimes you get a bad apple

 

[Temp9]

Re: Bad bullet, or something else?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Coloradocop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, I guess this issue might have had a somewhat unexpected explanation for me. I haven't personally seen the plate we shot yesterday since posting this thread, but I talked to Coloshootr on the phone earlier today, and he's pretty certain that a bullet grazed the edge of that target.

It still surprises me that a bullet could deflect that wildly in a direction that was more perpendicular to the flight path than parallel, but I have to admit that this explanation is gaining some serious ground in my mind.

I figure we're down to: 1) damaged bullet or, 2) bullet deflection. Since I load single-stage, I think I'd have noticed a damaged bullet in the reloading process.</div></div>

Remember that your perception of depth when looking through high magnification at distance is going to be extremely impaired. It's an effect that I've heard some photographers call "lensing". Magnification causes the image to become compressed in the depth direction, so what looks like only a few meters behind the target can actually be a very significant amount. Low magnification (sub-1x/50mm full frame) causes the opposite effect, making depth look enhanced. Think wide-angle lenses. I'm not saying this is the case, but this may explain why the bullet appeared to impact almost perpendicular to the plate.

 

[Topstrap]

Re: Bad bullet, or something else?

We see that occasionally at our matches, if we know the shooter and they get a shot like that usually if you'd inspect the plate you'd see a hit on the very edge that was deflected. The top shooters aren't going to get misses that are that far off target and sometimes thru a good scope you can detect a slight quiver of the target and see the dust or leaves kick up a few feet off to the side, way over the top of even directly under it.

Knowing a shooters abilities from past sessions and multiple matches if we see a hit like that we really start looking close at the edge. A lot of spotters will call a miss but we've learned it isn't always a miss. If a shooter is getting occasional hits and using up the whole target and a good bit of real estate surrounding it and they get a shot like that then chances are pretty good it was a bad shot.

Takes a lot of practice and experience to be a good spotter and also knowing the shooter to determine what you're seeing is really what you think happened. Sometimes the sun will glint off a small shiny mark on the edge so if you're not sure how a shot went so wild check real close.

Topstrap

 

[Grump]

Re: Bad bullet, or something else?

How far behind the steel was that 5-mil deflection REALLY?

A typical 30-degree deflection can to a long way in 10 yards.

I've seen a single 2.5mm thick chunk of brush 25 yards in front of paper deflect a .308 by about 3/4 of a mil. Something harder can surely do exactly that. Another time, forgot the target stand and stuck the cardboard in a bush--same size branches = .3 mil from only a foot in front, with nice green splatter around the hole (it WAS spring).

My Dad had an interesting story about watching trace at a HP Bullseye match. The trace started corkscrewing (helix for you purists), went wide and up and down and still scored in the 10 ring. At widest, it was outside the line of sight to the 5-foot square target carrier. Think it was 600 SF.

Deflection near the muzzle is to me the only other reasonable suspect.

 

[Coloradocop]

Re: Bad bullet, or something else?

I think you guys are probably right about the fact that the shot may have deflected, and then struck the berm at a distance beyond the 600 yard line at which we were shooting.

As someone else already mentioned, depth perception decreases dramatically when looking through a high magnification scope at these shots. Although the shot appeared to be directly left of my target by 5 mils, I think it is quite possible to believe that the shot was some distance further out. The land this range is situated on is flat to gently sloping, so there isn't an immediate raised backstop directly behind the steel, or anything like that.

I'm also confident enough in my shooting to say that I didn't miss by 5 mils on this target under these conditions. The misses I have at this distance are typically near-misses due to bad wind calls. These misses are typically measurable in inches, not feet, and certainly not 9 feet.

 

[Augustus]

Re: Bad bullet, or something else?

If the backstop was 50 yds or so behind the target you could easily get a 5 mil off-set on the impact. Once the bullet is deflected the off-set becomes more pronounced as it travels beyond the plate. If the edge of the plate was angled toward you or if it had a pronounced bevel on the edge it would be possible to see a near 90 degree deflection.

Sometimes when shooting at distances too great to hear a strike or see a splash, false miss calls are common, the spotter will see dirt fly off to one side or the other and assume this was POI. At ELR it is easy to get the target angled away from the shooter one way or the other causing the projectile to deflect in a very impressive manner. This is especially true when shooting very heavy solids. Solids don't make very big splash mask on steel but a 400 gr bullet spinning out of control makes a nice splash on dirt or rocks

 

[Coloradocop]

Re: Bad bullet, or something else?

I'm glad I posted this topic, because it has been an interesting read. I never considered the possibility of a deflected edge strike until you guys started talking about it, but it is definitely the explanation that makes the most sense in this case.

Thanks for all of the information everyone!