Figuring Proper Bullet Seating depth into the Lands by chambering loose bullet

[demolitionman]

So, has anybody had much success determining the proper COL in their particular rifle, with a particular bullet by simply taking a once-fired brass from your chamber, and before resizing it, placing a bullet into the neck as far out(long) so the case neck just barely holds the bullet with enough tension to allow it to be pushed into the cartridge when carefully chambered. After doing so, remove the cartridge carefully and measure COL, in hopes that the rifling lands would have contacted the bullet and in theory seated it to have the least amount or proper amount of "jump". Take a measurement of the COL, and use this as a precise starting point?

I'm still trying to work my head around the proper and most precise way to determine bullet seating depths in accordance to the rifling lands and the amount of jump in a bolt action rifle. I know I'm probably over-thinking this.

 

[milo 2.0]

There's alot easier way to do it by taking the firing pin out of your bolt, keep seating the bullet till there's no resistance.
There is a thread in here on it, I'll look for it.
Your method will work, but you need a slight amount of neck tension, too much and you're going to jam it farther than you'd think.

 

[dustinoif3]

That's how I do it. I just use my neck die to put a little little tension on the neck so the bullet will stay in the case on extraction. You also take your fired brass and ever so gently press the neck on your table to gain tension. I would recommend doing this method 3 to 4 times to make sure you get a common length. I also use a comparotor to take an ogive measurement instead of a coal. What rifle is this for? More than likely your lands will be farther out than what length will fit in your mag. But if you want to load one at a time then you can load them long.

 

[demolitionman]

Milo, Thanks! I'd like to read that thread, and the search function just plain sucks on this forum.

Dustin, the rifle is a 6.5 Creedmoor Savage LRP.

 

[dustinoif3]

Yeah man. Just give it a shot. It works. It's old school and keeps from having to buy another freakin 50 dollar tool. Some people sharpie the bullet and let the seating process while chambering scrape it off. Then you have a reference if the bullet gets stuck in the chamber. How do you like the 6.5? I've been looking for another build. Seems like a popular caliber nowadays.

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

There is a tool (made by Hornady and you can buy it at Sinclair's) using a case that's been threaded at the base (the cases are available separately by type). The threaded case screws on to a tube with a long plastic rod that goes through both the tube and case. After a bullet is inserted in the neck of the case, the bullet, case, tube and rod are inserted as a unit into the chamber from the rear after removing the bolt. With the case pushed to the end of the chamber by the tube, the bullet is then pushed forward toward the lands with the plastic rod. With some practice you can feel the bullet just touching the lands. A small screw on the tube is used to secure the plastic rod in place and the whole assembly is withdrawn. Now you can measure the COAL of the round, knowing the bullet is just touching the lands.

PS The tool is called a Hornady Lock-N-Load OAL gauge and modified cases. Here's a link:

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadi...rd--prod35663.aspx?avs|Manufacturer_1=HORNADY

If you follow the link, there is a video that shows how to use the tool. Yeah, it's another $50 tool.

 

[Suasponte]

Take a dremel tool with a diamond cutting wheel and slot the case neck. Clean up al the burs on the inside and out.
then you can pinch the neck in to control your neck tension. Works great for me.
I also put that case into me press, run the seating stem all the way up and then run that case up into the
seating die. Slowly and carefully run the stem down until you feel it just touch your bullet. That would be set for
the bullet just touching the lands. My seating die every 1/8 of a turn is approx .001. Close enough for what i's doing.

Terry

 

[waste_knot]

+1 for a split case neck. I cut mine with a jewlers hand saw.

 

[dustinoif3]

View attachment 2588

Take a dremel tool with a diamond cutting wheel and slot the case neck. Clean up al the burs on the inside and out.
then you can pinch the neck in to control your neck tension. Works great for me.
I also put that case into me press, run the seating stem all the way up and then run that case up into the
seating die. Slowly and carefully run the stem down until you feel it just touch your bullet. That would be set for
the bullet just touching the lands. My seating die every 1/8 of a turn is approx .001. Close enough for what i's doing.

Terry

Great idea! I will be trying that

 

[milo 2.0]

Demo-man,
I haven't looked for it yet, I'm lazy. I don't know how to take a Savage bolt apart of I could walk you through this.
Just a warning here, with a new gun, you very well might have some burrs on the throat where the reamer stopped cutting, and you can get false readings from the bullet hanging up on them, or visual marks from scraping them. I's best to run about 10 rounds through the gun, then find your lands.

 

[demolitionman]

Demo-man,
I haven't looked for it yet, I'm lazy. I don't know how to take a Savage bolt apart of I could walk you through this.
Just a warning here, with a new gun, you very well might have some burrs on the throat where the reamer stopped cutting, and you can get false readings from the bullet hanging up on them, or visual marks from scraping them. I's best to run about 10 rounds through the gun, then find your lands.

Milo, right on. I will be breaking in the barrel with Factory Boxed Hornady 120's before I do any handloading. Thanks for the heads up on that. I'm thinking shooting about 80 rounds through the tube of the factory stuff to get used to the gun, and break her in. I still don't even have it. It's supposed to be in my hands by the end of this week. But you know how that goes....

 

[milo 2.0]

Milo, right on. I will be breaking in the barrel with Factory Boxed Hornady 120's before I do any handloading. Thanks for the heads up on that. I'm thinking shooting about 80 rounds through the tube of the factory stuff to get used to the gun, and break her in. I still don't even have it. It's supposed to be in my hands by the end of this week. But you know how that goes....

Sounds like a banner week to have you as an employee, ........... not

 

[demolitionman]

Sounds like a banner week to have you as an employee, ........... not

Bahahahaha! Right!

 

[JByrd]

EVEN with the hornady comparator body/case and calipers its still a PIA, its very much a feel thing on getting the correct #. i take several measurements with the comparator and calipers.a comparator body is a must have for seating bullets anyway,so your gonna need one and what the bullet does on paper is gonna tell ya what it likes on lenght. so all dimensions are critical in their own way.get the right tools for the job , you'll be glad you did

 

[demolitionman]

EVEN with the hornady comparator body/case and calipers its still a PIA, its very much a feel thing on getting the correct #. i take several measurements with the comparator and calipers.a comparator body is a must have for seating bullets anyway,so your gonna need one and what the bullet does on paper is gonna tell ya what it likes on lenght. so all dimensions are critical in their own way.get the right tools for the job , you'll be glad you did

I think I'm just gonna try my hand at lightly seating a bullet and letting the bolt ease the bullet into the case from contacting the lands and grooves. Then, my understanding, is that I ought to take maybe a tenth of an inch or so off that measurement....and just start playing around with the COL until my rifle is happy happy joy joy. Thanks guys! I would have bought a Hornady comparator tonight but the damn things said Lock'n Load all over them, and I'm not interested in that, and wasn't sure if the LNL hornady comarators would even work or fit my 6.5, as they had 6mm and 270 but not between. Maybe I missed something. anyways, THANKS!

 

[armorpl8chikn]

View attachment 2588

Take a dremel tool with a diamond cutting wheel and slot the case neck. Clean up al the burs on the inside and out.
then you can pinch the neck in to control your neck tension. Works great for me.
I also put that case into me press, run the seating stem all the way up and then run that case up into the
seating die. Slowly and carefully run the stem down until you feel it just touch your bullet. That would be set for
the bullet just touching the lands. My seating die every 1/8 of a turn is approx .001. Close enough for what i's doing.

Terry

This^^^^ been doing it this way 20 years. I do use a Sinclair nut comparator to measure , once I chamber my altered case. I always use a once fired(in that rifle of course), partially resized case to split, ie. I don't bump the shoulder. I feel this gives me a more accurate reading without having to remove my extractor.

A fancy guage will not give you any better results.

 

[JByrd]

A fancy guage will not give you any better results.

Who needs calipers for reloading, to each his own .

Im a gauge and solid #'s guy . If you wanna know roughly what it is then these methods should give you that

 

[Suasponte]

You have to remember that the Modified cases that Hornady sells will not match you headspace in your
rifle. This will lead to erroneous readings for your seating depths. That is why I prefer using the split case
method with a piece of fire formed brass for that rifle. I have yet to see a modified case that is close
to the proper head space of any of my rifles.

Terry

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Who needs calipers for reloading, to each his own .

Im a gauge and solid #'s guy . If you wanna know roughly what it is then these methods should give you that

Good for you. I did not nor would I suggest to try and load good ammunition without a set of calipers. Calipers are not what I am talking about when I mention "fancy gadgets" or "fancy guages". Thanks for playing though. I see you are one of the people I rub the wrong way around here.

 

[JByrd]

No sweat hoss , to each his or her own. as long as the results are good who cares

 

[kyshootnman]

I took a case that has been fired in each of my rifles, decapped them by taking the decapping rod out of the die and pushing the primer out by hand. Then I drilled out the primer pocket, and tapped it with a 1/4-20 tap. Next you just buy a 1' piece of 1/4-20 all-thread and thread it through the primer hole you tapped. I insert the brass from the specific rifle into the chamber and turn the all-thread until the bullet is snug into the lands. I slid a piece of hose over the all-thread to make a spacer, and remove the case. Push the bullet out with a cleaning rod, re-insert the bullet into the case and take a measurement. I'll take several measurements with each bullet. It works just like the Hornady tool, only using a fired case from my rifle.

 

[JB02]

There is a tool (made by Hornady and you can buy it at Sinclair's) using a case that's been threaded at the base (the cases are available separately by type). The threaded case screws on to a tube with a long plastic rod that goes through both the tube and case. After a bullet is inserted in the neck of the case, the bullet, case, tube and rod are inserted as a unit into the chamber from the rear after removing the bolt. With the case pushed to the end of the chamber by the tube, the bullet is then pushed forward toward the lands with the plastic rod. With some practice you can feel the bullet just touching the lands. A small screw on the tube is used to secure the plastic rod in place and the whole assembly is withdrawn. Now you can measure the COAL of the round, knowing the bullet is just touching the lands.

PS The tool is called a Hornady Lock-N-Load OAL gauge and modified cases. Here's a link:

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadi...rd--prod35663.aspx?avs|Manufacturer_1=HORNADY

If you follow the link, there is a video that shows how to use the tool. Yeah, it's another $50 tool.

Yes but it's worth the money. I use it every time I reload ammo.

 

[JByrd]

I use drill and tap in my fired case but what do i know

 

[demolitionman]

I use drill and tap in my fired case but what do i know

ProCovert, I appreciate your input, and everyone else's as well. I'm not opposed to using OAL gauges or spending the money on them or any other tools that make my ammo loads more consistant in charges, lengths and runouts. I bought a concentricity gauge, and case prep station as well. I will own all the tools that i find help make accurate laods more economically time wise and I'm leaning towards using my own once fired brass converted so it will work with the Hornady OAL gauge(if possible).

I've loaded a few rounds to book spec in fresh brass just to get used to my new bench setup, and currently am having slight issues with the seating cup leaving marks on the AMAX 120gr bullet ogive. Obviously I will be using these rounds as fouling and break in rounds. I'm thinking a little more chamfer and neck lube might fix this issue. Hopefully I don't need a new or different seater plug.

 

[milo 2.0]

ProCovert, I appreciate your input, and everyone else's as well. I'm not opposed to using OAL gauges or spending the money on them or any other tools that make my ammo loads more consistant in charges, lengths and runouts. I bought a concentricity gauge, and case prep station as well. I will own all the tools that i find help make accurate laods more economically time wise and I'm leaning towards using my own once fired brass converted so it will work with the Hornady OAL gauge(if possible).

I've loaded a few rounds to book spec in fresh brass just to get used to my new bench setup, and currently am having slight issues with the seating cup leaving marks on the AMAX 120gr bullet ogive. Obviously I will be using these rounds as fouling and break in rounds. I'm thinking a little more chamfer and neck lube might fix this issue. Hopefully I don't need a new or different seater plug.

Demo-man,
If chamfering your case doesn't help loose the line, buy this, it would be a nice upgrade anyway.


http://www.gunstop.com/Store/Reloading Dies/Redding/RED-09167

You might call redding to verify part number, but I think I got it right.
I don't think amax's are known for their thin jacket like vmax's, but I seem to remember a line on 7mm amax's from before. This will cure it.

 

[jsthntn247]

View attachment 2588

Take a dremel tool with a diamond cutting wheel and slot the case neck. Clean up al the burs on the inside and out.
then you can pinch the neck in to control your neck tension. Works great for me.
I also put that case into me press, run the seating stem all the way up and then run that case up into the
seating die. Slowly and carefully run the stem down until you feel it just touch your bullet. That would be set for
the bullet just touching the lands. My seating die every 1/8 of a turn is approx .001. Close enough for what i's doing.

Terry

I do the same thing as this. I have often wondered if I am not getting a wrong reading because when using this method, the case is literally jammed against the lands as far as it can go, not just touching them. When using this method, I have found that you can back off .010 from the measurement you get from doing this, and sometimes further, and still get land marks on your bullets

 

[demolitionman]

Demo-man,
If chamfering your case doesn't help loose the line, buy this, it would be a nice upgrade anyway.


http://www.gunstop.com/Store/Reloading Dies/Redding/RED-09167

You might call redding to verify part number, but I think I got it right.
I don't think amax's are known for their thin jacket like vmax's, but I seem to remember a line on 7mm amax's from before. This will cure it.

I hit the case mouth with the RCBS chamfer tool, and then a smaller VLD Lyman chamfer after that real lightly. This solved the seater plug markings on my Amax's so far. However, I did notice that Redding has a VLD specific seating plug, matched with the micrometer setup like you linked, and I WILL be getting it.

 

[milo 2.0]

I didn't research it too far, do they have a vld seater for a standard die? I know they do for their comp seater, but it won't work in a reg die.

 

[RTK]

That's how I do it. I just use my neck die to put a little little tension on the neck so the bullet will stay in the case on extraction. You also take your fired brass and ever so gently press the neck on your table to gain tension. I would recommend doing this method 3 to 4 times to make sure you get a common length..

I use this same method but I smoke the bullet at the case, that way if it backs out I can tell.

 

[demolitionman]

I didn't research it too far, do they have a vld seater for a standard die? I know they do for their comp seater, but it won't work in a reg die.

Looks like ill have to try this setup out and make sure i order the one for VLD style http://www.redding-reloading.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=126%3Amicrometer-seat-stems-for-standard-dies

 

[milo 2.0]

The link I gave you is the one.

 

[GeeJ]

Milo, Thanks! I'd like to read that thread, and the search function just plain sucks on this forum.

Instead of using the forum search function, do a Google search using this as your search string: site:snipershide.com "your search"

The " "s are optional, of course. They simply tell Google to search for instances of that exact phrase only, rather than the individual words themselves.

By far better than using the forum search. At least it is in my opinion, anyway. Try it, though. You might be surprised. If you do like it, I recommend bookmarking a results page, which will auto-fill the search box each time you go back to do another search. It saves you the annoyance of always having to type....site:snipershide.com "your search"

Anyway, just throwing that out there. Hopefully it helps!

 

[clrems77]

Hornady will custom make a case with your once fired brass. I believe it's a little pricy around $15, but it'll match your chamber!

 

[LRDD]

Hornady will custom make a case with your once fired brass. I believe it's a little pricy around $15, but it'll match your chamber!

Or get yourself a 5/16-36 tap and make all the ones you want to work with your hornady oal gauge.

 

[1J04]

Here's how I do it. You may wanna give it a try.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Jv-D1mEI514" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Fuzzball]

Demo, it's clear you're trying but reading a lot of confusing OAL stuff and have a lot of "how I do it" comments here.; let me try to put some rational perspective on it. There is no magic in seating at or near the lands, bullet jump is just another means of tuning a load to your rifle; seating has basically the same effect as tweeking a powder charge or swapping primers. If you do much seating testing you will probably find a 'window' of seating that shoots the same. I often find that window to be from 10 to 20 thou wide so I try to seat in the middle of it to allow myself some latitude in seating depth and individual bullet differences. All that suggests great efforts to find the precise OAL to contact the lands don't mean much!

So, first, your loose bullet fit method and any of several methods will work fine IF you do it carefully; nothing works precisely for a clumsy worker. What you may like best is personal taste; some like Ford, some like Chevy but both work so personal tastes doesn't affect the end results. It's entirely within the skill range and taste of the worker which test method is "best."

Next, most factory sporters shooting off-the shelf bullets will usually shoot best with a bit of jump, from 5 to 120 thou but between 15 to 50 thou is most common. With such a range of jump there's absolutely no value in striving to finding the OAL to kiss the lands within 1 or 2 thou, all you really need is a starting reference you can then vary in discrete steps until you obtain the best shooting depth. It's convienient to find the approx max OAL, seat maybe 15 to 20 thou off the lands and develop your best shooting charge. After finding the best charge, work your seating in and out in 5 thou steps.

You don't need to shoot a lot of ammo to do all this, the early test work can well be done in groups of only two rounds each; a wide group won't get smaller by firing more rounds! By working in small increments you should see the consecutive target's hole spacings getting smaller and then wider as you approach and pass the best node. (Ignore any random unsually tight two hole groups when doing this, what you'll be looking for is the actual pattern of your two hole groups tightening and opening with small changes in seating.) Do whatever more extensive confirming group testing you wish AFTER you've indentified the better seating/OAL (and powder charge) nodes. (Powder charges usually have a modest 'zero effect' window of good results also, find and load in the middle of that range too.)

Use that method of load development and any system of seating with rocket science precision won't matter a bit.

 

[CK_32]

Yea that's one way of doing it. Only down side is you have to make sure you didn't pull it out while removing the round or hit it on your action and alter your OAL.

 

[earthquake]

...I did notice that Redding has a VLD specific seating plug, matched with the micrometer setup like you linked, and I WILL be getting it.

If you've already got the comp seater die, save yerself some money and just get the stem insert: REDDING COMPETITION STANDARD LENGTH VLD SEATER STEMS | Sinclair Intl

Although I have discovered that I didn't need it when loading my 6.5mm VLD's. YMMV.

 

[sharpshooterbr]

I have tried about every method and tool out there to find the base to lands length on my rifles. The best way I have found to do it is to close the bolt on an empty chamber and insert a cleaning rod down the barrel until it contacts the bolt face. I have 2 rod stops on my cleaning rod at this point, and I slide them both up to touch the crown and lock them both down on the rod.

Next I take a long soda straw, acquired from the local convenient store, that holds the caliber bullet I'm working with very tightly. Remove the bolt. Insert a bullet into the end of the straw, and then push the bullet up into the chamber until it touches the lands in the barrel. At this point you can feel exactly how much kiss or jam you are getting on the bullet by varying pressure on the straw.

Next, take your cleaning rod and again slide it down the barrel until you contact the tip of the bullet. I like to have one hand on the straw, and one hand on the cleaning rod so you can get a really good feel for everything.

Next, slide the rod stop closest to the crown down the rod until it contacts the crown, and lock it down.

Now just measure from the crown side of each rod stop to one another and you have your base to bullet tip length. I repeat this several times to get a consistent measurement.

I then take that bullet, and seat it into a case to the previously determined length. Then I measure with my comparator tool and find the base to ogive length. I now have a very precise measurement that I can use to know how far in or out of the lands my loads are for load development testing.

 

[Sweetyzfd]

Tag for later

 

[soileauj]

Great Tip

Just tried this with my 6.5x284 and worked like a charm. Much redirect than dealing with as cartridge. This gives you the depth of the ogive touching the lands. Once you have this just seat depth measuring the ogive. Double check OAL. I'm just starting the reloading game and this certainly made this aspect clearer to me.
Thanks sharpshooter!

I have tried about every method and tool out there to find the base to lands length on my rifles. The best way I have found to do it is to close the bolt on an empty chamber and insert a cleaning rod down the barrel until it contacts the bolt face. I have 2 rod stops on my cleaning rod at this point, and I slide them both up to touch the crown and lock them both down on the rod.

Next I take a long soda straw, acquired from the local convenient store, that holds the caliber bullet I'm working with very tightly. Remove the bolt. Insert a bullet into the end of the straw, and then push the bullet up into the chamber until it touches the lands in the barrel. At this point you can feel exactly how much kiss or jam you are getting on the bullet by varying pressure on the straw.

Next, take your cleaning rod and again slide it down the barrel until you contact the tip of the bullet. I like to have one hand on the straw, and one hand on the cleaning rod so you can get a really good feel for everything.

Next, slide the rod stop closest to the crown down the rod until it contacts the crown, and lock it down.

Now just measure from the crown side of each rod stop to one another and you have your base to bullet tip length. I repeat this several times to get a consistent measurement.

I then take that bullet, and seat it into a case to the previously determined length. Then I measure with my comparator tool and find the base to ogive length. I now have a very precise measurement that I can use to know how far in or out of the lands my loads are for load development testing.

 

[bax]

I measure the max COL for some reasons:

a. I know the COL cannot be ANY longer than that. So my COL tests start "in the lands", that is at that measured length, and work shorter.
b. As I put rounds through it, the measurement changes as the throat burns out. Sometimes I can adjust the COL based on a new throat measurement without going through a complete COL workup.

You have to take several measurements and keep doing it until you get nice consistent readings using the same bullet.

I have used the method you describe and I own the Hornady tool. The tool is faster and more repeatable but it costs a few bucks and you don't use it very ofter -- unless you are going through several barrels a year. If you are going through several barrels a year, you need to have an understanding with your gunsmith about how far he pushes his throating reamer. When my smith makes a barrel, I provide fired cases and loaded rounds that fit in my magazines.

 

[7shotguns]

I like this, sub'd