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Pistol grips, how do they affect lethality?

Ranb

Ranb

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 15, 2008
13
2
Belfair, WA
I am arguing with an ex-Air Force airsoft/paint ball aficionado about how pistol grips on assault rifles and sniper rifles affect their lethality on the battle field. It is my opinion that while they make for a more compact firearm as the hand is positioned more under the receiver instead of behind it, the pistol grip does not make a rifle more lethal. I am a former Sailor not a soldier, but own AR's, SKS, AK, M-1a and various bolt rifles and am familiar with how they all operate.

What say you guys with combat experience? Thanks.

Ranb
 
It is on the JREF forum. I am one of the few pro-gun people there. Rocketdodger's comments start here; What exactly makes an Assault Weapon an Assault Weapon in the first place? - Page 9 - JREF Forum

I tried to bait him into coming to this forum to discuss his experience with airsoft, paintball and walmart toys and how they convinced him that pistol grips make weapons more lethal. I even told him that there were some anti-gun kooks ( it was suggested here that I was breaking the law when discussing silencers I build) here that would agree with him. It look like he didn't take the bait.

Anyway I thought it was strange that someone would be so fixated on one feature like pistol grips on rifles and claim they make them more lethal without the benefit of combat experience. Couple this with his claims that machine guns are not legal for civilians, the M25 is not a modern sniper rifle and that his personal opinions are actual evidence and I think he is rather weird.

I think that pistol grips have some advantages but lack the knowledge or experience to claim they improve lethality of assault or sniper rifles.

Ranb
 
Last edited:
The only thing that makes any fire arm more lethal, whether its a derringer or a 240 bravo is the operator.
 
Better ergonomics with better pointability and a slightly shorter overall length is about all I can think of.

As for the argument, seems pretty lame to me. Don't argue with idiots; they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
 
You can remove the pistol grip with a cali style "featureless" conversion (a piece of kydex that wraps around the pistol grip and matches up with the A2 stock so you cant get your thumb around behind it. Although it might be a bit more uncomfortable to use it doesnt change the OAL of the rifle nor does it change any other factor of lethality. Also you need to define lethality are you saying that by adding the pistol grip the gun now kills in a single shot DRT instead of taking 3-4 shots like it would without the pistol grip?

Cosmetics have no effect on how deadly a rifle is its the shooter behind the weapon that makes it deadly. An experinced shoter with basic 10/22 can be far more effective then a complete novice running a tricked out tacticool ar-15
 
It doesn't make a firearm more deadly. Neither does a barrel shroud. It is definitions like these that truly show that those wording the bills have no clue what they are talking about and hence, have no business writing legislation to control them.

Its pretty clear that rather than read studies, Fienstein and her group looked at pictures, pointed at the ones that "look scary," and started banning based on that alone.

It is rather sick that American people would stand for such a thing, but I have come to the conclusion that most people are sheep who would rather follow the herd than lead themselves.
 
Germany, Japan, Italy, North Korea and China all agree; you can be killed by rifles without a pistol grip wielded by dangerous men looking to take down tyrants.

That and 16" guns. Why? Because fuck you, that's why. Bring back the Capital Class flotilla, this time with RAP rounds.

Airsoft... WTF...
 
Redmanss said:
Germany, Japan, Italy, North Korea and China all agree; you can be killed by rifles without a pistol grip wielded by dangerous men looking to take down tyrants.

That and 16" guns. Why? Because fuck you, that's why. Bring back the Capital Class flotilla, this time with RAP rounds.

Airsoft... WTF...
Click to expand...


line 1 ... AGREED

line 2 ... AGREED

line 3 ... in his defense, the airsoft/milsim/paintball thing is getting pretty big and its actually pretty fun. I know several Active Duty service members who play. Its just their thing...
 
It's a stretch, but you can argue that any feature that allows the user to more effectively make use of a tool is an advantage to that end.

Does the cushioned blue rubber grip over the shank of an Estwing hammer make it easier for the framer to pound nails in?

Can he nail more boards per minute/hour/day WITH the grip than without?

I'd argue he could....not to say a bigger, stronger, more experienced framer couldn't possibly nail more boards per unit time with the GRIPLESS hammer than the smaller, less experienced one could WITH the rubber grip.

Still, the bottom line is a framer can nail boards satisfactorily with or without the rubber grip.
 
Really can't believe people argue about such things. I think the skill of the marksman trumps anything as trivial as a grip. Of course, if said grip can be detached and has a hidden razor knife built in and then thrown like a Chinese throwing star, then you got some major tactical advantage there.
 
In my experience the pistol grip has nothing to do with lethality. The pistol grip is more ergonomic because the hand is in a more natural position with the hand in line with the forearm in a natural position instead of cocked downward. The other benefit is the trigger finger in relation to the trigger and the hand. The virtical grip allows the finger to rest at the bottom of the trigger and pull straight rearward in a natural position.

The two benefits I have experienced are a more consistent comfortable shooting position and reduction of fatigue in the muscles over time.

The anti gun argument is the product of a small, emotional mind which lack the ability to critically think and properly assess risk. It is an argument of people that are best avoided.
 
You guys all know a pistol grip turns it into an assault rifle from just a rifle. If it wasn't more lethal no one would care.
















X




Instructions for the X above.
1. Draw a copy on a hard surface with a permanent marker.

2. Setup Video camera and start recording the "X"

3. Using your face as a hammer hit it till it disappears

4. Post results on YouTube and share your link here

5. Rest assured your video was much more entertaining than this thread. ;)
 
If they do in fact make them more lethal then that would be a good thing. Why would anyone even debate this? If you are taking a defensive stand on the pistol grip not making the rifle more lethal then your position is flawed. Accept that it does make the weapon more efficient and that it is your right to own it that way.
 
Ranb said:
It is on the JREF forum. I am one of the few pro-gun people there. Rocketdodger's comments start here; What exactly makes an Assault Weapon an Assault Weapon in the first place? - Page 9 - JREF Forum

I tried to bait him into coming to this forum to discuss his experience with airsoft, paintball and walmart toys and how they convinced him that pistol grips make weapons more lethal. I even told him that there were some anti-gun kooks ( it was suggested here that I was breaking the law when discussing silencers I build) here that would agree with him. It look like he didn't take the bait.

Anyway I thought it was strange that someone would be so fixated on one feature like pistol grips on rifles and claim they make them more lethal without the benefit of combat experience. Couple this with his claims that machine guns are not legal for civilians, the M25 is not a modern sniper rifle and that his personal opinions are actual evidence and I think he is rather weird.

I think that pistol grips have some advantages but lack the knowledge or experience to claim they improve lethality of assault or sniper rifles.

Ranb
Click to expand...


Dude, after two minutes reading that forum I was board spit-less. I would rather watch fungus grow in my toilet than be a member of that forum.
 
This premise makes no sense to me. I like the ergonomics of a pistol grip, but it in no way makes a gun more lethal. You hear the whole argument of being to hip fire much easier. Anyone who says that has never held a pistol gripped rifle at their hip.
 
KUSA said:
If they do in fact make them more lethal then that would be a good thing. Why would anyone even debate this? If you are taking a defensive stand on the pistol grip not making the rifle more lethal then your position is flawed. Accept that it does make the weapon more efficient and that it is your right to own it that way.
Click to expand...
I agree anything that makes a rifle function better is good. The thing is I don't think a pistol grip is an enhancement in all cases. I refer a conventional stock at times. I don't think I will ever own a powerful bolt gun with a pistol grip.

Ranb
 
diverdon said:
Dude, after two minutes reading that forum I was board spit-less. I would rather watch fungus grow in my toilet than be a member of that forum.
Click to expand...
i understand how you feel, but it does have lots of useful info on it. I joined that forum ten years ago after reading too much anti-gun crap on it. If you want to educate people on guns, then preaching to the choir on gun forums is of limited value. I am one of the few sane voices of reason on that forum where it comes to gun control and gun owners.

Ranb
 
Ranb said:
i understand how you feel, but it does have lots of useful info on it. I joined that forum ten years ago after reading too much anti-gun crap on it. If you want to educate people on guns, then preaching to the choir on gun forums is of limited value. I am one of the few sane voices of reason on that forum where it comes to gun control and gun owners.

Ranb
Click to expand...

God bless for your good work friend.
 
77grain said:
I can't believe this is even a thread on the hide. I mean, really??? Just the presence of this is an embarrassment to the entire forum
Click to expand...

So we should not be discussing attitudes about gun design that appear on other websites here on Sniper’s Hide? Or are you embarrassed that I asked for an opinion from combat experienced persons here?

Ranb
 
Ranb said:
So we should not be discussing attitudes about gun design that appear on other websites here on Sniper’s Hide? Or are you embarrassed that I asked for an opinion from combat experienced persons here?

Ranb
Click to expand...

Sir,

maybe I completely misinterpreted your question. My point is how is something that is only an ergonomic feature of the rifle itself going to have any affect on "lethality" whatsoever. Lethality is a function of the bullet and it's terminal ballistics upon the target. WTF am I missing here? Are you asking if by having better ergonomics one is potentially a better shooter capable of more damage? I seriously have no idea what you mean
 
That is their whole plan. A 223rem is a 223rem if you shoot it from a bolt or a semi-auto. It is divide and concur.

Here is their plan.
They will make it hard to get one
then make it so you can not get one.
Then make it if you have one you are screwed
Now that we have your stuff we will do the same to other weapons you have.
We will also make your kids scared to touch your deadly weapons as it will be in their permanent record.
Granted we will try to run this plan over and over until you are a slave to the state.

To me it all comes down to the basic rules of firearm safety. Same argument can be used against them. Why do they need a new car?
 
77grain said:
Sir,

maybe I completely misinterpreted your question. My point is how is something that is only an ergonomic feature of the rifle itself going to have any affect on "lethality" whatsoever. Lethality is a function of the bullet and it's terminal ballistics upon the target. WTF am I missing here?
Click to expand...
I think you missed most of what I wrote in my first post. If you read it again you will see that I think a pistol grip does not make a gun more lethal but I am debating a person in another forum who does think so. My question was; "What say you guys with combat experience?". Since I am not combat trained or a soldier, I was hoping to get the opinions of there here that are.

Simple yes or no answers would have helped me much more.

Ranb
 
My M1a is way more lethal than the pistol gripped m4, have mucho experience with both, no hiding from the 308, it will get to you eventually. The weight of kinetic force of the pistol grip when used as a club might do more damage if you wield it like an axe, I see no other way it can be, all else being equal. I cant believe I even posted in this thread.
 
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