Where should I look for the cause of the f$S%* Flyer!!!

[diego-ted]

I just picked up a used factory Savage FTR 308 that had about 200 rounds down the tube. These groups were produced by several diffrent loads using diffrent components, I cannot isolate the cause of the flyer! The flyer occures wheather the barrel has been cleaned or after 75 rounds. The rifle has about 400 rounds down the tube, 200 by me in the last couple of weeks. The flyer is ruining what should be a 1/2 MOA or better rifle and turning it in to a 3/4 MOA rifle which is unacceptable!! All help is appriciated.

Diego

 

[Bruno]

What type of ammo, handloads or factory? Is this happening every group? It is really hard without a little more information. I would check that your scope rings and base are properly torqued then do the same to your action and barrel. Then try the same lot of factory ammo and shoot a couple boxes and make sure its not the ammo.

 

[NukeMMC]

Try running more rounds after the last in the mag. Last round feed in the mag issue?

 

[diego-ted]

I have been very careful with brass prep, powder charges, seating depth ect. No mag, single feed. I have checked and rechecked all the usual suspects, such as rings, scope, rail, action screws! Happens pretty much every 4-5 shot group? Every once in a while I will get a clean group but not often.

Diego.

 

[angrymustache]

My guess would be either differences with the way the ammo is loaded, or with the shooter. You say you can occasionally get a 'clean' group, I am assuming that means one without a flier. That would tell me the rifle is capable enough, and the majority of the rounds consistent enough. Are you checking every round you load for consistent powder charge, OAL, seat depth, bullet weight, etc?

 

[jhart2424]

If it is only happening on 4-5 shot groups then I would just shoot 3 shot groups.....I have been know to be a problem solver.

 

[emoddriver]

thinking out loud here. When in the group does the flyer typically happen? Shots 4-5 most often or pretty much anywhere from 1-5?

-Mark

 

[seanh]

have you weighted the cases? What about case capacity...have you separated cases by capacity- water test. Case weight, primer pocket, primer hole grouping?

What about neck tension?

all of the above can easily throw a shot out.

are you weighing each powder charge?


What about timing on the shot...can you isolate the shot number that is a flier? When is the flier occurring, fist shot, 3rd? If you were to fire a shot, wait 20 minutes, fire another shot...what does the grouping do?

have you properly tensioned the barrel nut?

just throwing out ideas...


Get someone else to shoot it with the same loads. Sometimes we influence our groups unintentionally

 

[physhphude]

Could it be the rifle? Shoot a 10 or 20 shot group, do you still get 1 flier for every 5 shots?

 

[jeff1383]

Seanh has asked all the right questions. My guess would be inconsistent neck tension.

 

[jsthntn247]

Looks like a neck tension issue to me too. I know because it happens to me too.

 

[diego-ted]

I load all loads the same, I load for other rifles and do not have this problem. I weigh each charge, I do not weight seperate my cases, nor have I for any rifle. I have been careful with shot timing. Happens whether shooting off the bipod or lead sled, all groups shot indoors. I know nothing about tension on the barrel nut? The rifle is as came from the factory. No rime or reason for when in the groups the flyer happens.

 

[jsthntn247]

Anneal your brass. When you seat your bullets make sure they all feel the same ( easy/hard) if one feels different, use it as a fouler round.

 

[Redmanss]

Unless you're a Distinguished Shooter or otherwise God's gift to marksmanship, I'd say you should be looking in the mirror. But that's just the marksmanship instructor in me talking...

 

[17874]

How is the bedding in the stock? Shooting off a bench? Lifting your head off the stock after every shot?

 

[BillCh]

The simple answer to your question is that you aren't using the correct load for that particular rifle.
But I reckon you know that already. (I'm not trying to be a smart ass here)
You stated that you've gotten the similar results using different loads with different components. This is nothing more than evidence that all those loads are wrong too.

Pick a bullet that you want to work with and stick with it. I know times are hard these days as far as the availability of powder goes but try to select a powder that's best for your bullet weight. Use good brass, once fired in your chamber. Shoot a ladder test through a chrono if you have access to one. It may be that you are just a few 10ths of a grain off on your charge weight. That's what it looks like to me. Don't worry. You'll get it.

I wish I could have back all the powder and bullets I wasted trying to invent a new load for my F T/R. I finally gave up, got simple, and life is good.

If you can't get it to shoot I'll give you $350 for that rifle. (being a smart ass here)

B

 

[rideHPD]

Get Greg or one of the guys to shoot it just to assuredly eliminate you, then try with factory ammo. That way you can quickly find or eliminate the 3 primary sources for error, and then you know you need to rework your load/look for problems with your reloading practice. That's what makes sense to me to keep from burning up ammo components chasing a ghost tail.

 

[seanh]

New rifle- no reason. That actually is a perfect reason for issues. One would think that a new anything would be in perfect working order but the reality is, this isn't the case.

Seeing that you're generally getting good groups, I'd say that it's likely not the gun. This leaves the shooter or the load.

Bill hit on a good point...the load. If you're not measuring the case capacity, weighing each case, insuring neck tension is proper then you're leaving out quite a bit of the reloading process to get the maximum accuracy. This doesn't make a 1moa rifle a .5 moa rifle but it very well could remove the fliers from a 3/4 moa rifle allowing for closer to the .5moa you're seeing.

Have you done ladder testing? That flier could be from the round being just outside the proper node for that rifle. If you haven't worked through a ladder test...do it.

 

[scissorhands]

Just a thought....What are your action screws torqued at? I have all three of mine ay 35 in/lbs. Something to look at.

 

[TheGerman]

Something with the brass and the neck width/thickness making the round thats 'off' sit slightly crooked in the chamber and engage the rifling differently/at an angle.

I bet if you reloaded JUST the brass that were the flyers you'd have a 1/2MOA group.

 

[Huskerhunter]

Something with the brass and the neck width/thickness making the round thats 'off' sit slightly crooked in the chamber and engage the rifling differently/at an angle.

I bet if you reloaded JUST the brass that were the flyers you'd have a 1/2MOA group.

Now that's an interesting idea. I would start culling the flyer rounds just to see...I had a Ruger heavy barreled varmint rifle in 22-250 that ALWAYS did this...hell it was accurized, cryo'd etc...I don't have time in my life for guns like that anymore. Notice I said HAD. When you get a "good" one that shoots consistent, concenctric, sub 3/4 MOA groups with about anything you put through it as a starting point life is much easier. If I don't start with that, I move em' on down the line to someone who has more patience or likes a project.

While I've had Rem/Sav/Win/Browning rifles that will occasionally shoot small without a fuss, and espeically Savages...there's a reason the GAP's, Gre-Tan's etc. of the world exist....