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300 WM dies, first time reloading belted magnum

ArmyJerry

fukallyall
Banned !
Nov 22, 2012
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Just picked up a 300 win mag Savage, ordered a bull barrel for it will be dropping it in a Choate with CDI bottom metal. Went back and forth between the 338 and the 300 wm, decided on the 300 due to cost & avail of components and reduced recoil vs the 338, plus it still meets my needs, 1200 yards max range target shooting. Now my reason for posting, this is a belted round, I never reloaded a belted round, been reloading pistol and various rifle ammo since 88 but never a belted round. I have read a bit on it but want some advice on dies I need from experienced members here, brand , type, would be good. I have been using Lee my whole life and have been happy with them but am willing to change if it makes a material difference in brand, cost not an issue. Thanks in advance.
 
Doesn't really matter. Loading belted is no different than loading any other cartridge. I use Redding myself. I like the competition dies but I don't have them for my beled cartridges and haven't seen a need to change in the last 18years as I can make darn good ammo with the standard dies.
 
Well, actually, it is a bit different, and that's where many people run into problems. Belted cases are designed to headspace off the belt. While this was necessary on the original H&H family of cases (due to their long, sloping shoulders), newer designs like the 300 WM can easily be headspaced off the shoulders. Problems come with the newer cases when people try to use the belt to headspace, instead of the shoulder. Pick up on of the various chamber gages or bump gages on the market, and set your dies up to allow bumping the shoulders back by only .002" or so. With many of the dies on the market, if you follow the makers instructions and screw them all they way down, you'll wind up headspacing on the belt, pushing the shoulders back far too much, and losing the cases due to head separations after only a couple of firings.

Notice most of the newer magnums (WSM, RUMs, SAUMs, etc.) have finally gotten away from the belt. That's a good thing.
 
With many of the dies on the market, if you follow the makers instructions and screw them all they way down, you'll wind up headspacing on the belt, pushing the shoulders back far too much, and losing the cases due to head separations after only a couple of firings.

Please understand I'm not calling BS on this, but I don't understand what you're saying. I also have never reloaded for a belted mag, so I'll be the first to admit I have no experience with them.

With that out of the way, how can bumping the shoulder back too far cause a CHS on a belted mag?

The way I see it, when you size a BM case, you are not affecting the relationship between the casehead and the front face of the belt (the HS datum). I understand that if you bump the shoulder too far, there will be a gap between the shoulder of the cartridge and the shoulder of the chamber - but the casehead will still be clamped firmly between the boltface and the belt counterbore of the chamber...

My understanding (and my experience with non-BM cases), is that CHS's are caused by a gap forming between casehead and boltface, and the ass-end of the case blowing rearward (and thus stretching the case walls just ahead of the web) until it meets the boltface.

It is also my understanding that when forming wildcats with the shoulder blown forward, it is an accepted practice to load the bullets long, purposefully "jamming" the bullet into the lands, such that you KNOW the cartridge is forced rearward, well-seated against the boltface....the purpose of which is to ensure you ONLY have a gap between the cartridge shoulder and chamber shoulder....NOT a gap between the casehead and bolt.

So coming around full-circle: With the BM case, I don't see how you would be causing CHS's by bumping the shoulder too far. I can see that you'll be stretching the casewall every firing, because the case will stretch forward, but the stetching WON'T be at the head/web/base area - it will be up by the shoulder.

Again, I freely admit I've no experience reloading BM cases; I'm just thinking out loud here, fishing for some education.
 
Perfectly fair question, no foul there at all.

In cases that actually needed them, the belts served their intended purpose. The belt stopped the case from moving forward in the chambers, when the shoulders were too shallow to do this reliably with the machinery then in use. Also have to remember that most of these were originally loaded with cordite, which is why the cases couldn't be formed any differently. Those sloping shoulder were the result of straight-walled cases that were loaded with cordite before being necked down to their final form. In otherwords, they couldn't make the sharper shoulders like we have on later cartridges at that time. So, the belt acts in exactly the same manner as a rim on a 38 Special or a 45-70.

With the newer magnums (and the use of granulated powders), the more pronounced and sharper shoulders became viable. Better machinery, which could control dimensions better, along with better metallurgy in the material itself allowed the use of the more modern case design. With these shoulders, the cases CAN be headspaced on the shoulder, making the belt completely pointless. Worse than that, the belts are actually a weak point, and can cause several problems. Case separations are one of these, because of how we've been told to set up or dies. Don't get me wrong, dies have to work for all chambers, and the manufacturers do a pretty good job of ensuring that they do. In the case of the belted magnums, however, they generally leave more than enough room to push the shoulder back far more than it should be. Since the case will still headspace on the belt, the rounds will still fire reliably. The problem is, that gap that now sits between the case shoulder and the shoulder area of the chamber. Everytime that case is fired, it's going to expand to fill that chamber by pusing it forward. After just a few firings, you're right back to where you'd be with a conventional rimless case, if you were to set the shoulders back too far (excessive headspace), and you wind up with head separations. This is what you get when you follow the (some or most) die makers instructions to run the die down to where it contacts the shellholder and then load it to where it cams over when bottomed out. The better way to do this is to (as I said) treat these belted cases as if the belt wasn't there at all, and simply headspace it off the shoulder. No case stretching issues, as the gap that would otherwise be between the case shoulder and chamber shoulder, is now a gap between the forward edge of the belt and the belt ledge on the inside of the chamber. Firing won't cause the case to try to fill that, since the forward movement is stopped by the shoulder, so the brass lasts longer. You've got the right idea here, but you're mistaken about where the brass does its stretching; it's still back by the head, just forward of the belt. Case forming is a bit of a specialized situation, and it's one that we're not repeating each and every firing. One shot and formed, and from that point on it's no different than a case that was originally drawn this way.

Belted cases are a holdover, and are still found on more modern case designs like the 300 WM and 7mm RM because shooters of that period simply wouldn't buy a "Magnum" case that didn't have a belt. It was pure marketing BS, plain and simple. The cartridges didn't need them for functioning, and they don't make the case any stronger. Actually, they weaken it from a mechanical standpoint. I'm pretty pleased to see that most of our newer magnums have finally dispensed with the belt, since this is a huge step in the right direction.
 
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Ksthomas is correct about headspacing off the shoulder for the 300 WM and no different that sizing non-belted cases. There have been a number of threads on different forums discussing the technique. The book Precision Shooting Reloading Guide by Dave Brennan has an excellent chapter on reloading for belted magnums and recommends the technique. I reload 300 WM and size fired brass .001 to .0015 off the fired dimension. It does in fact increase case life by reducing the amount of case stretching over repeated firings. He is also correct in saying that following typical die setup instructions will typically result in oversizing your brass. I will neck size the brass until the point they start to chamber tightly then body size. Annealing after several firings also helps extend case life. I use Redding competition dies but the Type S dies will provide good results as well.
 
Excellent writeups from both ksthomas and Ziahunter.

A question I have for other belted mag reloaders though is what do you consider too much stretching (brass thinning right above the belt) such that it's time to scrap the case? After ~3-4 firings a "ring" of less material can be seen down inside the case where the case wall thinning occurs. I've been measuring the case wall thickness with a RCBS case master tool and I came up with my own rule of scrapping the the case if the wall thickness at that area is less than .020". I'm curious by what logic/reasoning do others decide when it's time to retire a given piece of belted magnum brass?

I became paranoid when I found one case that had the "almost ruptured" band right above the belt, one more firing and it would have split open. (BTW, this particular case measured .017" thick at the case wall just above the belt) I haven't had a case head separate on me yet, and I don't think that would be any fun. I'm sure some would say if they see any thinning above the belt then trash the case, but I think there has to be some acceptable threshold given the cost and availabilty of new brass. I also bet there are others out there that simply run them till they burst (head separation).

Any insight would be appreciated!

To the OP, I like using the Redding competition shellholder set along with the Redding type S match die set. (2 die set that comes with sizing die that uses neck bushings and seater die with a micrometer adjustment) These shellholders are very consistent at setting the shoulder (headspace) the same everytime. Sinclair makes a "bump gage insert" that fits into a bullet comparator body, they have angled shoulder that makes measuring the shoulder position very easy and accurate.
 
Squid284,

Pretty much a judgement call on this one, and it'll vary substantially depending on the make of the case. Doing the headspacing off the shoulders instead of the belt will help extend case life quite a bit, but I'd start sorting pretty carefully once you notice those dull little stretch marks show up ahead of the belt. One thing here, and no, I'm not saying it's not a problem, but having the cases split here isn't usually a major disaster. Can be, but normally isn't. The case is really nothing more than a cannister that hold powder, primer and bullet in a single unit until it's fired. Upon firing, it becomes a gasket that seals the action off from the combustion chamber and keeps gases from entering. When case heads do separate, the split portions normally still manage to seal off the gases, leaving the shooter with little more than a stuck forward body of the case in the chamber, and a little section of head when extracted. The problem is when the gases get past that gasket and turned loose inside the action. Really bad things happen then, way too quickly.

Do the case inspections, and dump them if they're showing signs of wanting to separate. Cases are a whole lot cheaper than actions, stocks or surgery. But if wone does slip through, it probably won't be too much more than a learning experience.
 
ZiaHunter,

Appreciate the kind words, and hope you enjoyed the PS guide. I did most of the photography for the Service Rifle section done by my friend, John Feamster. Always thought that little book should be keot in print, since it really is a useful guide to some very specialized stuff.
 
Please understand I'm not calling BS on this, but I don't understand what you're saying. I also have never reloaded for a belted mag, so I'll be the first to admit I have no experience with them.

With that out of the way, how can bumping the shoulder back too far cause a CHS on a belted mag?

The way I see it, when you size a BM case, you are not affecting the relationship between the casehead and the front face of the belt (the HS datum). I understand that if you bump the shoulder too far, there will be a gap between the shoulder of the cartridge and the shoulder of the chamber - but the casehead will still be clamped firmly between the boltface and the belt counterbore of the chamber...

My understanding (and my experience with non-BM cases), is that CHS's are caused by a gap forming between casehead and boltface, and the ass-end of the case blowing rearward (and thus stretching the case walls just ahead of the web) until it meets the boltface.

It is also my understanding that when forming wildcats with the shoulder blown forward, it is an accepted practice to load the bullets long, purposefully "jamming" the bullet into the lands, such that you KNOW the cartridge is forced rearward, well-seated against the boltface....the purpose of which is to ensure you ONLY have a gap between the cartridge shoulder and chamber shoulder....NOT a gap between the casehead and bolt.

So coming around full-circle: With the BM case, I don't see how you would be causing CHS's by bumping the shoulder too far. I can see that you'll be stretching the casewall every firing, because the case will stretch forward, but the stetching WON'T be at the head/web/base area - it will be up by the shoulder.

Again, I freely admit I've no experience reloading BM cases; I'm just thinking out loud here, fishing for some education.

Yeah, the idea of winding down the die all the way is just as......(restraint applied)....ill advised on a belted magnum as it is on any other case.
Doing so assures extreme headspace, soon to separate case heads, and soon to split shoulders and necks.
DO NOT DO IT!

Best advice I can give on a belted magnum?
Ignore the belt.
Yes, ignore the belt and pretend it is a 308 or whatever you are used to loading. Set the case to run 1-2 thou "headspace" on the shoulder.
The clearance between the belt on the case and that of the case is huge and you should never be able to head space on the belt.
I have been shooting "belted magnums" for over 30 years and have not had one "belted magnum" issue.
 
Perfectly fair question, no foul there at all.

In cases that actually needed them, the belts served their intended purpose. The belt stopped the case from moving forward in the chambers, when the shoulders were too shallow to do this reliably with the machinery then in use. Also have to remember that most of these were originally loaded with cordite, which is why the cases couldn't be formed any differently. Those sloping shoulder were the result of straight-walled cases that were loaded with cordite before being necked down to their final form. In otherwords, they couldn't make the sharper shoulders like we have on later cartridges at that time. So, the belt acts in exactly the same manner as a rim on a 38 Special or a 45-70.

With the newer magnums (and the use of granulated powders), the more pronounced and sharper shoulders became viable. Better machinery, which could control dimensions better, along with better metallurgy in the material itself allowed the use of the more modern case design. With these shoulders, the cases CAN be headspaced on the shoulder, making the belt completely pointless. Worse than that, the belts are actually a weak point, and can cause several problems. Case separations are one of these, because of how we've been told to set up or dies. Don't get me wrong, dies have to work for all chambers, and the manufacturers do a pretty good job of ensuring that they do. In the case of the belted magnums, however, they generally leave more than enough room to push the shoulder back far more than it should be. Since the case will still headspace on the belt, the rounds will still fire reliably. The problem is, that gap that now sits between the case shoulder and the shoulder area of the chamber. Everytime that case is fired, it's going to expand to fill that chamber by pusing it forward. After just a few firings, you're right back to where you'd be with a conventional rimless case, if you were to set the shoulders back too far (excessive headspace), and you wind up with head separations. This is what you get when you follow the (some or most) die makers instructions to run the die down to where it contacts the shellholder and then load it to where it cams over when bottomed out. The better way to do this is to (as I said) treat these belted cases as if the belt wasn't there at all, and simply headspace it off the shoulder. No case stretching issues, as the gap that would otherwise be between the case shoulder and chamber shoulder, is now a gap between the forward edge of the belt and the belt ledge on the inside of the chamber. Firing won't cause the case to try to fill that, since the forward movement is stopped by the shoulder, so the brass lasts longer. You've got the right idea here, but you're mistaken about where the brass does its stretching; it's still back by the head, just forward of the belt. Case forming is a bit of a specialized situation, and it's one that we're not repeating each and every firing. One shot and formed, and from that point on it's no different than a case that was originally drawn this way.

Belted cases are a holdover, and are still found on more modern case designs like the 300 WM and 7mm RM because shooters of that period simply wouldn't buy a "Magnum" case that didn't have a belt. It was pure marketing BS, plain and simple. The cartridges didn't need them for functioning, and they don't make the case any stronger. Actually, they weaken it from a mechanical standpoint. I'm pretty pleased to see that most of our newer magnums have finally dispensed with the belt, since this is a huge step in the right direction.

Right on the money!
Sorry man I missed this post. :)
 
Ksthomas:

Well thought out posts. The Service Rifle section of the book was very well done and provided some very useful tips. It is a shame that the book is out of print and have you seen the prices for used copies? BTW Lapua is my brass of choice.
 
Kevin - since we're talking 300 WM and you are Lapua, when will Lapua start production of 300 WM brass?

To the OP - I would suggest Forester FL dies or Redding Competition dies. Either will serve you well. I have used both for my 300 WM and they work great. Don't let the belt throw you - the 300 WM is very easy to size and load for. I bump the shoulder back about 0.002" with success. Depending on your intentions RL-22, RL-25, H1000 or H4831sc will serve you well.
 
Jayman, I wanted to ask for some understanding on th first part of your post. Is Lapua reintroducing 300WM brass or were you inquiring if there was any plan to do such? Thanks and I know a little of topic, sorry guys.
Kevin - since we're talking 300 WM and you are Lapua, when will Lapua start production of 300 WM brass?

To the OP - I would suggest Forester FL dies or Redding Competition dies. Either will serve you well. I have used both for my 300 WM and they work great. Don't let the belt throw you - the 300 WM is very easy to size and load for. I bump the shoulder back about 0.002" with success. Depending on your intentions RL-22, RL-25, H1000 or H4831sc will serve you well.
 
Not off topic , part of my next question, been looking for Lapua 300 wm brass, seems they don't make it anymore, so my next Q is whats the best brass to get?

Jayman, I wanted to ask for some understanding on th first part of your post. Is Lapua reintroducing 300WM brass or were you inquiring if there was any plan to do such? Thanks and I know a little of topic, sorry guys.
 
Jerry,

Buy Norma brass (until Lapua becomes available again). I use them for my 300 WM and it is wonderfully concentric and weight consistent. The only thing I would suggest is purchase a primer pocket uniformer from K&M that fits in a cordless drill (probably sold elsewhere too). My last lot of Norma brass I purchased had tight primer pockets. I hit each one with the primer pocket uniformer and they turned out great. Probably not a bad idea to do with any new brass. Can't go wrong with Norma.
 
ZiaHunter,

I agree, it was a great little guide. Then again, Precision Shooting generally had some pretty good stuff, and catered to an audience that wasn't wrapped up in the typical Shooting Ammo and Gun Times type of crap. Very good for that audience, but not of much interest to the majority of the shooting general crowd. Almost no place better to find tech articles that you simply weren't going to be able to get into print anywhere else. I enjoyed wrtiting for Dave, he's a neat guy, and quite a character.

And for the rest of you guys who asked about the Lapua 300 WM brass, nno, I'm afraid we're not going to see it anytime soon. It got kicked around pretty good this year, and I really thought it was going to make it into the line. Lots of military interest, and I think may eventually get it added. In the meantime, there's been some talk about doing some 300 WM ammunition this year, but not cases. If so, the brass will probably be LAPUA headstamped, but will be contracted through Norma (lot of this thing in the industry). Same story for the other 300 WM Lapua brass that's out there right now. X-Fan hit it spot on; we've never made this brass before. We have done ammunition, and it does bear the LAPUA headstamp, but it was made for us by Norma.

If I hear anything more on this as we get a bit further, I'll be happy to let you guys know.
 
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Thanks for the heads up Kevin. Just throwing this out there: could we start a petition for 300 WM Lapua made brass? LOT's of civilian interest too.
 
Jayman,

Appreciate the thought, but I can assure you, it isn't necessary. They're already aware of the numbers and have considered it pretty thoroughly. If you see us at the trade shows, especially the SHOT show (since the Finns themselves come over for that one) or (if you're lucky enough to get to Nuremburg, Germany for it) the IWA show, stop on by and chat with us, I'll make sure you get pointed to the head guys and that your wants are known. Headed off to the NRA show in Houston tomorrow, but that's just Adam and I. Still, any requests like this that we get, get passed along to Finland for their consideration.

And yes, I'd love to see us do this one, and I know it'd be a winner for us. Opens the door to the rest of the belted magnum family, too!
 
Thanks Kevin. Your presence here and your insight is appreciated. Have fun in Houston. Lot's of good steakhouses and seafood down there.