454 Casull Anybody?

[rugerdiggs]

Got a Ruger Alaskan in 454 casull that should be here at the end of the week or first of next week. It has the short 2.5" barrel and looking to get some advise on loads for it. Here is what i currently have and have on its way as far as supplies.

120+: pieces of new starline brass primed with small rifle magnum primers
100: pieces of new NAA brass
200: 345gr hard cast lubed bullets, bhn suppose to be 20+
100: 325gr swift A-frames
1lb of lilgun
1lb of h110
3 piece set of rcbs carbide 454 casull dies
Also have some 45lc brass coming

This is all together a new cartridge for me, have read a good bit on it and some say if the the bhn is above 18 no gas checks needed and some dont even lube them, i am pretty new on shooting lead cast out of magnums, any advice on this would help.

Also not sure on the primers, is small rifle magnum good or will small rifle be better or will it be determined by which powder?

I have both powders above on hand but if need to get different one will try to find some.

My goal for this pistol is to shoot hogs or deer around here but main goal other than having a hand cannon is to have a good handgun for future elk hunt to have in bear country. If the A frames shoot well that will be the bullet for bear and cougars from what i have read but have no experience with them.

Any and all help and advice will be thanked

 

[former naval person]

You are going to find that the traditional slow powders for the heavy loads give diminishing returns in that short barrel. Most of the slow H110/296 will burn in the two feet past the muzzle giving you a blinding muzzle flash. If I were you, I'd invest in a subscription to Quickload and run some simulations on medium rate powders before you burn up a lot of components. You will also be better satisfied if your bullets are gas checked. While you are waiting get some "Curly Kate" at the grocery store...the bronze scrubbing pad to clean pots. Wind some of that on your brass brush to quickly cut the lead out of your barrel. You'll need it. Match the bullet diameter to the cylinder throats. Get the best lube you can find for the lead bullets. Use the small rifle primers. They are rated for slower powders and higher pressures. Buy some Advil.

 

[ksthomas]

You'll also want to make sure you pick up a Lee Factory crimp die, and use it religiously. In developing data for this cartridge, this was literally the only form of crimp or die avaialable on the market that successfully held the bullets in place and didn't let them "pull" under recoil. That was with the 7.5" barrel. It's going to be a good bit worse out of a 2.5" barrel.

It's a great bear gun, if you can figure out a way to get the poor bear to shoot it.

 

[former naval person]

As ksthomas says. The old carbine load for the .45-70 was a 300 grain lead bullet at about 1300. That is attainable with the .45 Colt with modern strong handguns such as the Ruger. That load would shoot thru a horse and the rider hanging onto the other side. IMHO the .454 is overkill for your purposes. Without the Lee crimp die two rounds will lock up your cylinder. Been there, done that.

 

[Joe Kidd]

I ran some H4227 for awhile. At least it'll give you less muzzle flash and a more complete burn. You'll have to settle on slightly slower velocity, but full-house loads in that gun are quite rough. 5 shots with a glove is about all I could stand with that piece. +1 on the small rifle primers. You definitely need to seat and crimp separately. FWIW I always shot Beartooth LBT's with GC's.

 

[wilecoyote]

Overboosting 45lc brass to .44mag.or upper pressure levels, even if "mechanically" safe in a quality .454 revolver, can expose you to find the weak link on this chain, and the weak link could be the .45lc brass, born & engineered to withstand quite lower pressures _
Never tested myself, only readed, but for what can worth it seems to me a sound advice_

 

[lash]

Overboosting 45lc brass to .44mag.or upper pressure levels, even if "mechanically" safe in a quality .454 revolver, can expose you to find the weak link on this chain, and the weak link could be the .45lc brass, born & engineered to withstand quite lower pressures _
Never tested myself, only readed, but for what can worth it seems to me a sound advice_

Actually this has been a practice since back in the days of Elmer Keith. How do you think the .454 was born. It's the same way that the .357 and .44 magnum were developed. Ruger has sold Blackhawk single actions in .45 LC with unfluted cylinders for years just so that people could use them for this reason. Mine is the Bisley style.

 

[wilecoyote]

Lash,
as I say,"only a READED, SEEMLY SOUND, ADVICE": his worth is that, following it, nobobody will hopingly have bad experiences_ _ Everyone's ballistic experiments can be more daring and/or quite different,mine included, but that's another story_My doubts are addressed to the brass only _ by the way,the problem was for sure more a concern at Mr.Keith's early times, with old balloonhead brass_ If you (as Mr. Keith & C. for sure) know better, I sincerely wish you all the best enjoyn'your Bisley_ Regards

 

[lash]

wilecoyote, at the risk of a minor hijack of the OPs thread (sorry rugerdiggs), I'd like to address the issue of hi pressure .45lc loads.

I agree with your caution that one should be careful when loading over standard pressures and in fact this should not be considered unless you own one of the newer revolvers specifically engineered to handle such loads. Older model 45s SHOULD NOT be fired with loads over the SAMMI standard of 14,000 psi or 15.900 cup. However, there are a number of revolvers and pistols that are designed to handle such loads and the brass is not a weak link. Indeed, many (if not all) loading manuals cover this subject and offer safe loads hotter than standard.

Here is a great write up that covers this subject much better than I ever could:
High Pressure .45 Colt loads

There are other write ups out there for those interested, just use your google-foo.

Rugerdiggs, my brother owns a Ruger Super Redhawk in .454 Casull. It's a longer barreled version of about 6" or so with a scope mounted up top. Even so, it's a handful and I find myself limiting myself to about 12 rounds at the end of a range session, as the muzzle blast is like a slap in the face and it tends to make me a bit flinchy. It's accurate as all get out when I do my part and undoubtedly has a ton of power to do what needs to be done anywhere in the world.

If you can get a hold of one of the better loading manuals like Speer, Hornady or Sierra, they will provide some good information to get you started. Also, if you use hard cast bullets, the leading issue is minimized. Good luck finding the load that works for you.

 

[ksthomas]

True, it has been a practice since Elmer started working up heavy loads in the 45 LC, but it's also worth mentioning that he had a badly buggered up hand from some of that experimentation that went a bit too far. Blew one of them up, and left him with some permanent damage. I've had a Ruger Blackhawk sine the mid 70s, and it's plenty strong enough to handle much hotter than SAAMI pressure loads. And yet, the only loading data I use in this one is standard 45 LC or 45 S&W. When I need a 44 Mag, that's what I'll use.

 

[rugerdiggs]

What about the small rifle magnum primers vs regular small rifle? 100 pieces i have coming is primed with small rifle magnum, will there be much difference in the 2? All the bullets i have coming are lubed or jacketed and from what i have read the lube serves as much for a seal as a lubricant for bearing surface. The hard cast one i do have coming dont have gas checks though. Do you think if i load them to 1250-1300 fps which is starting load with the H110 but thats gauging velocity off a 7.5" barrel so it should be less than that, it will require gas checks or if shot without them leading will be very bad? The last thing i want to do is damage the gun or me, stupid just hurts.

 

[ksthomas]

Rugerdiggs,

A quick scan of the reloading manuals I have on the shelf here shows virtually every one of them used a standard small rifle primer, not the magnum. You should be fine with these as the Casull is actually a fairly small case, compared to what the SR primers are designed to ignite. You'll be fine here.

As far as leading issues, try 'em and see. Pretty wide variety in the lead hardness used by various manufacturers on the market, and the efficiency of the lubes they may use. Can't really give you solid, across the board advice here. No big deal, just keep an eye on the leading, and if you see it starting to build, then that's a bullet that needs to be fired at loads that are reduced a bit. Besides, you shoot lead bullets in a pistol, you're going to have spend some time getting lead out of the barrel.

 

[hessian]

Wear a good glove

 

[lash]

Wear a good glove

That's good advice. I bought my brother a glove from Duluth Trading Co. that is designed for everyday use by framers who use framing nail guns all day. They come in full and finger-less versions. It helps.

 

[former naval person]

Small rifle magnum primers are a good choice, especially when trying to ignite slow powder in the winter.

 

[NICETRY]

I use CCI-450 primers for my 454 loads. I have heard of people using BR4 primers with good results. I have not shot a 454 with that short of a barrel. For personal protection and back packing that revolver serves that role well. But if you plan to hunt with a 454 I would recommend something with more barrel to it. I have a Freedom Arms with a 7.5" barrel I bring into the back country when I am back home in Alaska. I also have a Rossi carbine in 454 casull I have hunted with and would love to take some hogs with it.

 

[M1Amen]

Sounds awesome. I would love to get one of these or a 500 S&W. I would think that such a short barrel might mean you want a faster powder. Not sure what kind of velocity you will get if you use a slow powder, even with the heaviest bullets possible.

 

[wilecoyote]

The hard cast one i do have coming dont have gas checks though. ...

LEE ALOX LUBE : smells funny, really low priced_ a sort of sticky syrup that you can dilute with alcool_ when the alcool will be evaporated, your cast bullets wil be coated with a thin but effective protection against barrel leading_
UNCLE MIKE's SHOOTING GLOVES : the real mc coy when (not if) you need a big bore revolver shooting glove_
WELDER's ANTISPLATTER: a light coating on the revolver parts subjected to flame/carbon build-up (as the cylinder front face) will reduce the effort to scrubbing the black dirt from it_ won't harm any bluing_ very good to coat the bullet molds before the use,too_
wearing some kind of shooting GOOGLE won't harm you for sure, by the way_
enjoy !

 

[rugerdiggs]

Thanks for all the input so far, gun should be here friday if everything works as planned. This is probably a stupid question but how will i know if leading is excessive? Sorry real new in the cast bullets, only shot a hundred or so through my 1911. Will it show up as grey lead look in barrel or? Whats the best for removing if this occures. The lead bullets i have coming are lubed but not gas checked, i have looked at the lee alox and it looks simple enough to apply and let dry just wondering after they have been loaded how sticky they are or if at all, if they are still sticky can the loaded ammo be put in the tumpler with walnut media to take it off or would it damage the lead? Should the anti splatter be applied to a stainless gun as well? Thanks again for the help thus far

 

[rugerdiggs]

I also came across a 454 casull designated loading manual for $10, got it coming as well. I have some hornady, sierra, and nosler books but there not a lot in them.

 

[wilecoyote]

inside the barrel,after a first cleaning, you could see some shiny silver/grey streak : that's lead and I'm sure that other members will be more updated about the best chemicals, available on U.S. stores, to remove it without too much scrubbing_ ( if needed, patches or nylon/brass brushes only, no steel please ! )_ a brass bore-saver (a sort of little funnel guide) will be cheap and useful to preserve the barrel crown from any contact with the cleaning rod) _
in my practice, sometime I end my shooting sessions of cast bullets with a last cylinder of jacketed bullets, as mentioned above_this way the lead will go_
lee alox, even alcohol diluted, seems to me to be sticky forever, even if advertised differently_ I simply wipe the exposed lead with a rag lightly soaked w. alcohol or acetone_ (I don't tumble anything, except when I molycote rifle bullets)_
I use anti-splatter on blued vintage revolvers without any harm, therefore can be safely used on stainless steel (tested) and aluminium (as Lee molds)_ before using the anti-splatter, I seal the extremities of barrel and chambers w.some cotton,soft paper or rag,to avoid to sprayin' their inners _ forgive my poor English,and good shooting_

 

[bobke]

In practical application, one that would insure you could actually deliver all rounds to the target accurately and without tying up the gun as a result of excessive recoil and bullet jump, you might find that a 280-320gr bullet at around 1000-1100fps will still shoot through both sides of a deer or pig-easily. Whole lot easier on you, too.

Far as your loading setup, not only do you want a healthy crimp, you also want a very snug fit of bullet to case. Check the diameter of expander plug in your die set and, if need be, polish it down till you get around .003 difference between actual bullet diameter and plug. Helps burn powder more efficiently, too. I've used Power Pistol and 280's in 45 Colt Starline brass with excellent results. Keep in mind, the heavier bullets need proper spin to stabilize, which might take more pressure than might be comfortable to shoot on an extended basis. As all have said, you'll néed to work on your recoil tolerance-it will bite.

 

[former naval person]

Slug the chamber mouths and the barrel where it is screwed into the frame as well as an inch or so farther. Sometimes the barrel gets constricted there from over tightening by the factory and is looser farther down the tube. That causes inaccuracy and blow-by leading. The chamber mouths should be a thousandth or so larger than the bore. If smaller, you WILL get bad leading. You might be limited to the jacketed bullets in that case. Try the Lyman Moly Lube. Good luck.

 

[Billy Budd]

I have two 454s, a Seville with a 7 1/2" barrel and a Ruger Alaskan 2 1/2". I frequently take friends to the range and they always want to shoot the Casulls. I use reduced loads for the Alaskan, as I don't want to turn off less experienced shooters. I've found about 18 to 19grs of Blue Dot (relatively fast for a magnum pistol powder) works well with cast bullet (260gr) that have a gas check. This produces reasonable (a relative term here) recoil and little muzzle flash that everyone can enjoy shooting.... also gives good case life.

 

[Graham]

That short a barrel will defeat the purpose of having a .454. You will be better off loading it to .45 Colt velocities with traditional pistol powders.

 

[Wildwillalaska]

I have several custom 5-shot 45lc single actions that I load hotter than most would suggest, but am of little help on the 454 after I moving onto the 475 and 500 Linebaughs. My Freedom Arms even wear their 45 colt cylinders--so have notmloaded for the casual in a while.

As most have said, the traditional powders you would look to for maximum velocities are going to prove inefficient to ineffective with such a short tube. For that compact little gun, I would think heavy 335-350gr 45 colt loads are what I would run. Check out the articles on John Linebaugh's website and the exhaustive discussions over on singleactions.com. HS-6 provides a handy powder for medium/heavy loads. I used it a lot in the 45/475/500 when I'm looking for something in the 1000-1100 fps range.

Your purpose will be the most important factor. If for protection, follow up shots is a consideration. Full-house 454 loads will prove a bit much in that gun if follow up shots are a consideration. Will be fun though. I had a Freedom Arms Packer that was a 3" barrel back in the 90's. Great conversation piece, fun to shoot with moderate loads, a few full-house loads though would remind me I didn't like the gun all that much.

Big bores are a blast have fun and be safe. You'll get used to the nerve damage (hand tremors) after a while.

 

[Billy Budd]

Do yourself a favor and don't shot 45 Long Colt brass in your 454. You'll end up with power residue ( and bullet lube if you shot cast) in the gap left by the shorter case, then when you load 454 brass it may stick.... difficult area to clean as well.

 

[FN in MT]

Slug the chamber mouths and the barrel where it is screwed into the frame as well as an inch or so farther. Sometimes the barrel gets constricted there from over tightening by the factory and is looser farther down the tube. That causes inaccuracy and blow-by leading. The chamber mouths should be a thousandth or so larger than the bore. If smaller, you WILL get bad leading. You might be limited to the jacketed bullets in that case. Try the Lyman Moly Lube. Good luck.

Leading in revolvers is generally caused by a poor FIT between the slug and the cylinder throats/barrel ,than hardness...or lack of it. But having to use "hardcast" slugs is an old wives tale that persists.
When the dimensions are correct and the barrel is free of any jacketed fouling...it's surprising how soft the slugs can be..... if they FIT and they are properly lubed. Upon ignition the base of the slug and a bit forward will obturate or slug up and SEAL the hot powder gases from the sides of the slug. Poor fit is your general cause of leading.

Not a Ruger fan so I have zero experience with their throat dimensions. But both of my Freedom Arms M-83's slug at .451" so I have always used a .452" sizing die for my cast slugs with no leading yet.

FN in MT